David Raymond Amos @DavidRayAmos
Replying to @DavidRayAmos @alllibertynews and 49 others
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Methinks Higgy et al should not be surprised because I have been complaining about the actions of SNB in writing for 15 years or so N'esy Pas?
https://davidraymondamos3.blogspot.com/2020/06/477-million-assessment-difference-in.html
#nbpoli #cdnpoli
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/saint-john-assessment-francophone-community-centre-1.5611766
$47.7 million assessment difference in francophone community centres irks Saint John leaders
Differences in the valuation of the two institutions needs to be explained, says Saint John mayor
· CBC News · Posted: Jun 15, 2020 7:00 AM AT
Centre scolaire Samuel-de-Champlain in Saint John opened in 1985. Service New Brunswick values it for taxes at $22.8 million, less than one-third of the Fredericton centre it was modeled on. (Robert Jones/CBC)
Suspicion in Saint John that Service New Brunswick undervalues properties in the city and causes the municipality to be shortchanged on tax revenue has civic leaders asking for more information about the assessment of the local francophone community centre.
Centre scolaire-communautaire Samuel-de-Champlain on Saint John's north side is the heart of the city's francophone community. The 35-year old building is 58 per cent the size of Fredericton's Centre communautaire Sainte-Anne, but the $47.7 million difference in how Service New Brunswick values the two for taxes has Saint John municipal leaders wanting more information on the assessments.
"That stopped me dead in my tracks," said Coun. Donna Reardon about differences in the valuation of the two institutions.
"I don't get it."
Fredericton's Centre communautaire Sainte-Anne opened in 1978. It generates $1 million a year in property tax revenue for the city, based on its $70.5 million assessed value. (Ed Hunter/CBC)
Saint John Mayor Don Darling said it would have to be explained to him how an institution in Fredericton less than double the size of a similar one in Saint John could be valued for taxes as being worth triple.
"Shock is what I would say," Darling said in an interview last week.
"I don't think you can hear numbers like that and not have a whole series of followup questions. We need to understand. There needs to be a clear explanation of how these numbers are arrived at."
Samuel-de-Champlain opened in Saint John in 1985, seven years after Sainte-Anne. The two each sit on slightly more than 10 hectares of land in their respective communities and offer education in French to students from kindergarten to Grade 12.
Last year, 727 students were enrolled at the school in Saint John and 1,200 in Fredericton.
Saint John City Coun. Donna Reardon said doesn't understand why the Saint John and Fredericton centres would be assessed so differently. (Robert Jones/CBC)
Both centres have been renovated and expanded over the years.
In addition to schools, both have daycares, live performance theatres, libraries, community banquet facilities and medical and dental office spaces.
But while Samuel-de-Champlain is assessed for taxes by Service New Brunswick to be worth $22.8 million (including its non-taxable library), Sainte-Anne is valued at $70.5 million, more than three times as much.
The difference was made worse this year when Service New Brunswick boosted Sainte-Anne's assessed value by $1.7 million, nearly 50 times the $35,000 increase the agency assigned to Samuel-de-Champlain.
The province is paying $1.4 million in property tax on the two centres this year, $1 million of that to Fredericton and $400,000 to Saint John because of the uneven valuations.
"If you're following our budget deliberations, we're talking about do we open up a sports field or not. Can we afford to open up an aquatic centre or not. Do we mow the grass or not. Every $50,000 every $100,000 — that's a lot of programming, that's a lot of community support. So it matters."
Although some of the $47.7 million difference in the assessments between the two centres is related to the fact Sainte-Anne is larger, about $18 million of the gap is caused by Service New Brunswick's judgment that Sainte-Anne, per square foot, is a significantly more valuable building and property
Spread over its entire 296,775-square-foot floor space, Sainte-Anne's assessed value equates to $238 per square foot, well above the $132 per square foot Service New Brunswick applies to Samuel-de-Champlain.
Saint John Mayor Don Darling said he wants to know more about the valuation of Centre scolaire Samuel-de-Champlain because of past experiences with Service New Brunswick assessments. (CBC)
Reardon has a difficult time accepting those numbers .
"That's a head banger for me," she said. "I don't understand that $100 differential a square foot.
"There's a cost to building per square foot. It won't make any difference whether you build it in Fredericton or Saint John or wherever."
In an email, Service New Brunswick said it uses a "cost approach" to evaluate each property that takes into account "a number of factors," including the quality and type of construction, the age and condition and design of the buildings, their location, the size of the land they occupy and any additional improvements.
"The use of the property would also weigh into the overall assessment. For example, if the Samuel-de-Champlain school is not being fully utilized, then we would allow for functional depreciation."
Saint John politicians have had an uneasy relationship with Service New Brunswick over the way it values property in the city since at least 2013, when the agency cut the assessed values of Saint John's two large pulp and paper mills by 40 per cent, citing poor economic conditions for the industry.
The decision cost the city $1.5 million per year in tax revenue.
Service NB cut its valuation of the Canaport LNG plant from $300 million to $98 million just before it became fully taxable by Saint John. The decision cost the city, and saved Irving Oil Ltd., more than $5 million a year. (Canaport LNG)
In 2017, Service New Brunswick used the economic hardship argument again and lowered its valuation of the Canaport LNG property by $202 million on the eve of it becoming fully taxable by the city. That cost Saint John — and saved Irving Oil Ltd. — $5 million per year in property tax
Last year, city politicians questioned why Saint John's new courthouse was assessed to be worth $6 million less than Moncton's new courthouse. The complaint led to Service New Brunswick raising the Saint John building's assessment by $6 million this year but without acknowledging a mistake had been made.
"If we don't have confidence today, how can we get ourselves to a place where we have we have more confidence in the taxation system and assessments?" said Darling
"It matters. Having fairness in the tax system and having people have confidence in the tax system."
91 Comments
Commenting is now closed for this story.
David Amos
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Methinks Higgy et al should not be surprised because I have been complaining about the actions of SNB in writing for 15 years or so N'esy Pas?
David Amos
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Methinks the Saint John Mayor Don Darling must recall our encounter in Fat Fred City on the day Higgy et al tabled their budget this year. Even though the budget had a positive spin Darling announced the very next day that he had changed his mind about seeking another term as Mayor However Darling has been stuck with the job because Higgy et al cancelled the municipal elections that were to be held in May. Hence this makes for interesting circus for me to watch N'esy Pas?
Corrie Weatherfield
tax the churches and their properties not the govt built places
Lou Bell
Reply to @Corrie Weatherfield: I believe they do pay property tax .
Corrie Weatherfield
Reply to @Lou Bell: For example, try looking at the assessment for this church in Freddy . . . " https://paol.snb.ca/paol.html?lang=en&pan=00898746 "
Dave Shimla
Reply to @Lou Bell: No they don't Lou, why do you think Irving build Chapels on their properties. tax evasion at its finest ! https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/tax-exemptions-new-brunswick-foregone-revenue-1.5350250#:~:text=In%20the%20case%20of%20churches,in%20uncollected%20taxes%20per%20year.&text=Amounts%20municipalities%20lose%20from%20the%20tax%20exemption%20on%20churches%
Dave Shimla
Reply to @Dave Shimla: Service NB PDF
https://www.welcomenb.ca/content/dam/agnb-vgnb/pdf/Reports-Rapports/2005v1/Chap3e.pdf didnt irving build an arena too lol wonder why?
https://www.welcomenb.ca/content/dam/agnb-vgnb/pdf/Reports-Rapports/2005v1/Chap3e.pdf didnt irving build an arena too lol wonder why?
David Amos
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Reply to @Corrie Weatherfield: I agree Google the following to see why
David Amos Cardinal Bernard Law and IRS
David Amos Cardinal Bernard Law and IRS
Jos Allaire
Content disabled
Reply to @Lou Bell: Encore, to say pas de quase two parle, moody fall!
Reply to @Lou Bell: Encore, to say pas de quase two parle, moody fall!
Brian Robertson
Saint John needs to be dragged kicking and screaming into the reality that their fiscal problems are rooted in the labor agreements struck decades ago that created a pension liability that they simply could not afford.
You can only kick the can down the street for so long.
David Amos
Reply to @Brian Robertson: True but methinks you have overlooked the irving Clan skirting a lot of taxation etc N'esy Pas?
Brian Robertson
Reply to @David Amos:
But haven't most clans done so as well.
Only those envious of others seem to complain of them.
But haven't most clans done so as well.
Only those envious of others seem to complain of them.
David Amos
Content disabled
Reply to @Brian Robertson: What is it you think you know of my Clan and its concerns about public corruption?
David Peters
Reply to @Brian Robertson:
Being envious or looking to be treated equally/fairly?
Being envious or looking to be treated equally/fairly?
Ray Oliver
Reply to @David Peters: What would be of NB without Methinks?
Lou Bell
Stii looking for the easy , low bearing fruit and it appears to be unwilling to follow the recommedations for getting their Finances in order . Time to take back their City from the Union bosses and realize who you're representing !! The people who put the monies in your coffers , or the people who TAKE the monies from your coffers !!!!
David Amos
Content disabled
Jos Allaire
Reply to @Lou Bell: Higgs aie ton Amy come Lamey they Irving!
David Amos
Content disabled
Reply to @Jos Allaire: Mais Oui
Ray Oliver
Reply to @Jos Allaire: RadioCanada!
Johnny Almar
I’m not saying it’s the Irving factor.
David Amos
Reply to @Johnny Almar: I have been
Reply to @Ray Oliver: They still only allowing 30 day prescriptions Davey?
Donald Smith
Saint John is done, Saint John doesn't exit in the big picture. Other Cities and Communities like Moncton do, WHY ? Mr. Doug James does bring up a good point, c`mon people explain and Justify the 3 pay raises of this council and yet us the tax payers should expect cut backs. Move to the South End where you get garbage pickup every week, snow removal first and foremost.
David Amos
Reply to @Donald Smith: Methinks Saint John is somewhat unique because it is overseen by Higgy et al N'esy Pas?
Ray Oliver
Reply to @David Amos: so how was the bounty hunt? Find anything other than your own dirty underwear??
Murray Brown
Somebody in Saint John needs to make up for the Irving's 'not' paying their fair share of taxes...
Corrie Weatherfield
Reply to @Murray
Brown: but it seems the issue here was that the assessment and therefore
the taxes are also too low on this property.
Ray Oliver
Reply to @Murray
Brown: Doesnt take long. Cue the Irving Bash that somehow gets angled
into any fiscal article involving SJ, and occasionally the entire
province regardless of how far of a grasp!!!
David Peters
Reply to @Ray Oliver:
That's why monopolies aren't supposed to be allowed to form.
That's why monopolies aren't supposed to be allowed to form.
David Amos
Reply to @David Peters: BINGO
Ray Oliver
Reply to @David Amos: well davey boy. The only people who COVID didnt hurt was the financially set or the welfare people's..
Ray Oliver
Reply to @David Peters: you and your free enterprise. When you gonna get you are a lemming. Stand in line. Play the game.
Jos Allaire
There has been bickering between Saint John and Fredericton for decades, ever since Premier John B. McNair in the 1950s. After he won with a substantial majority, he was quoted as saying something of the sort: - "Ideal win, 30 some seats and none from Saint John!"
Ray Oliver
Reply to @Jos Allaire: Radio. Canada. Look it up.
George Matthews
Saint John doesn't have a large enough french community to get more money from the Government. That is why Fredericton and Moncton get assessed higher and get more money it's not hard to see.
Terry Tibbs
Reply to @George Matthews:
Maybe, but more likely: property isn't worth as much as in other places.
Personally, you couldn't give me property in Saint John.
Maybe, but more likely: property isn't worth as much as in other places.
Personally, you couldn't give me property in Saint John.
Jos Allaire
Reply to @Terry Tibbs: Why not, I just love the Saint John folks, always been very nice to me.
Justin Time
Small businesses are going under while the billionaires continue to get tax breaks for "economic hardship". How about they use some of their own offshore cash.
Samual Johnston
Reply to @Justin
Time: the focus of the article is about another "They". In this case
the "they" is not a corporation it is the Province
Terry Tibbs
Reply to @Justin Time:
I owned and operated a small business for many years.
In the current economic conditions I would have taken every business loan the government was offering. I would use that money to pay out all my suppliers and let them know why I was paying them out and closing my account. Then I would declare bankruptcy............ stiffing the government. I would be prepared to start a new business as soon as things get back to normal and I expect all my suppliers, who got a square deal from me in tough times, would consider me to be a good risk despite my bankruptcy.
I owned and operated a small business for many years.
In the current economic conditions I would have taken every business loan the government was offering. I would use that money to pay out all my suppliers and let them know why I was paying them out and closing my account. Then I would declare bankruptcy............ stiffing the government. I would be prepared to start a new business as soon as things get back to normal and I expect all my suppliers, who got a square deal from me in tough times, would consider me to be a good risk despite my bankruptcy.
Douglas James
If
Saint John Common Council is so concerned about the lack of money
coming in, why did they raise their own salaries 3 times in 4 years
which took almost three quarters of a million dollars out of taxpayers'
pockets? That's the question that citizens want answered.
Samual Johnston
Reply to @Douglas
James: do you think they make too much for what they do? and how does
their compensation compare to other cities? Tis not a job I would want.
Terry Tibbs
Reply to @Douglas James:
With their twice weekly "whine sessions" the SJ city council is attempting 2 things:
1) shift the blame for their shortcomings.
2) soften us up for a provincial bail-out (once again)
With their twice weekly "whine sessions" the SJ city council is attempting 2 things:
1) shift the blame for their shortcomings.
2) soften us up for a provincial bail-out (once again)
David Amos
Reply to @Terry Tibbs: YUP
David Peters
Property taxes on gov't owned buildings?
Terry Tibbs
Reply to @David Peters:
A ponzi scheme........... out of one pocket and into another.
A ponzi scheme........... out of one pocket and into another.
David Amos
Content disabled
Reply to @Terry Tibbs: YUP
Terry Tibbs
Might I suggest the hiring of an independent real estate appraiser to add some sort of reality into everyone's BS?
Justin Gunther
Reply to @Terry
Tibbs: Why bother? The shred-it truck is always right around the corner.
They'll pretend it never happened and then shred the evidence.
Terry Tibbs
Reply to @Justin Gunther:
If I owned real estate in Saint John, I too would expect to be compensated on my tax bill, for having to listen to the never ending whining.
If I owned real estate in Saint John, I too would expect to be compensated on my tax bill, for having to listen to the never ending whining.
David Peters
Reply to @Terry Tibbs:
That would make for some fascinating reading, but, would no doubt reveal a problem that is so widespread as to be impossible to fix. Instead of looking at the past and pointing fingers, it would be better to right the ship.
Righting the ship, imo, includes getting rid of corporate welfare and special tax breaks, while drastically shrinking the size of gov't at the same time. Many huge sectors that are now monopolized would see free market solutions introduced. This would mean real competition in the marketplace.
Things would look different, but the old way of big gov't tax and spendism with most all sectors monopolized, may have finally become totally unsustainable.
That would make for some fascinating reading, but, would no doubt reveal a problem that is so widespread as to be impossible to fix. Instead of looking at the past and pointing fingers, it would be better to right the ship.
Righting the ship, imo, includes getting rid of corporate welfare and special tax breaks, while drastically shrinking the size of gov't at the same time. Many huge sectors that are now monopolized would see free market solutions introduced. This would mean real competition in the marketplace.
Things would look different, but the old way of big gov't tax and spendism with most all sectors monopolized, may have finally become totally unsustainable.
Terry Tibbs
Reply to @David Peters:
(No) Service NB bumped my property taxes here this year out of the blue. I appealed every case. I initially won 2, and lost 2. Then it took an independent appraisal to bring the other two in line.
"Righting the ship", in every case I have been involved in, requires that the wholesale whining stop, and the bringing in of experts to fix things.
CLEARLY a difficult thing for Saint John, because they tried that, and promptly ignored the experts.
(No) Service NB bumped my property taxes here this year out of the blue. I appealed every case. I initially won 2, and lost 2. Then it took an independent appraisal to bring the other two in line.
"Righting the ship", in every case I have been involved in, requires that the wholesale whining stop, and the bringing in of experts to fix things.
CLEARLY a difficult thing for Saint John, because they tried that, and promptly ignored the experts.
Terry Tibbs
Reply to @David Peters:
I can't help but *think* that Saint John NB is the most tiresome place I know of due to their seemingly non-stop whining.
I can't help but *think* that Saint John NB is the most tiresome place I know of due to their seemingly non-stop whining.
David Peters
Reply to @Terry Tibbs:
That's a great outcome for you personally, but what about the overall problem that governments are now facing? An oversized gov't came after not only you for more $, they're coming after everyone, imo. Don't forget that inflation is a tax.
That's a great outcome for you personally, but what about the overall problem that governments are now facing? An oversized gov't came after not only you for more $, they're coming after everyone, imo. Don't forget that inflation is a tax.
David Peters
Reply to @Terry Tibbs:
Maybe one person's whine is another person's justified complaint.
Maybe one person's whine is another person's justified complaint.
Terry Tibbs
Reply to @David Peters:
Any trouble governments are now facing is the result of their own actions.
Inflation is not a tax, it indicates a healthy economy, what is going to "catch us" is devaluation of our currency, which might look like inflation, but is caused by ALL levels of government spending more than they take in, especially the federal government, where "budgets balance themselves".
I used my example to outline a point. If you have a valid complaint, don't complain, or whine, about it, DO SOMETHING.
Any trouble governments are now facing is the result of their own actions.
Inflation is not a tax, it indicates a healthy economy, what is going to "catch us" is devaluation of our currency, which might look like inflation, but is caused by ALL levels of government spending more than they take in, especially the federal government, where "budgets balance themselves".
I used my example to outline a point. If you have a valid complaint, don't complain, or whine, about it, DO SOMETHING.
David Amos
Reply to @Terry Tibbs: I concur
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