David Raymond Amos @DavidRayAmos
Replying to @DavidRayAmos @Kathryn98967631 and 47 others
Methinks we should not be surprised to see that mean little Mikey Wernick would find a liberal lawyer willing to lie for him for a fee N'esy Pas?
https://davidraymondamos3.blogspot.com/2019/03/pm-wasnt-briefed-on-wilson-rayboulds.html
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/wernick-wilson-raybould-recording-trudeau-holiday-break-1.5078639
PM wasn't briefed on Wilson-Raybould's concerns due to holiday break, says Wernick's lawyer
5183 Comments
Commenting is now closed for this story.
Joe james
PM wasn't briefed ... They really expect Canadians to believe that after all this ?? That is just weak last hail Mary desperation play
Jamie Gillis
David R. Amos
Content disabled
Reply to @Jamie Gillis: "Especially when there's evidence that both Justin and Gerald were in Ottawa working as late as December 21st."
Methinks for reasons of national security at the very least the Clerk of the Privy Council should be able to reach the Prime Minister byway of the telephone no matter where he was just like he dd the Attorney General as she sat home alone . If the Trudeau the Younger was in one of his "moods" I have no doubt whatsoever that he and his best buddy Mr Butts would want to know the bad news right away N'esy Pas?
David R. Amos
Content disabled
Reply to @Joe james: I wonder how many folks read my comments
David R. Amos
Reply to @Danbinder Binder: "But guess my job is more important the being the Prime Minister "
I guess so but methinks nobody is buying Wernick's BS N'esy Pas?
"Scheer cited Wernick's own committee testimony that the prime minister was available 24 hours a day and often "woken up in the middle of the night" to be briefed on important issues.
"The idea that he was on vacation and couldn't be briefed about an issue that he took such great interest in, that he sent his principal adviser multiple times to lobby Ms. Wilson-Raybould to interfere in this situation, an issue that he himself had a meeting with her on, and then never asked about it, certainly I'm not buying that," Scheer said."
David R. Amos
Reply to @Arlond Lynds: "She has thrown away her credibility, Philpott as well."
Yea right Methinks you no doubt think Wernick and his lawyer are oh so credible N'esy Pas?
"Wernick's lawyer's statement said Wernick "never discussed SNC again with the PM or PMO until someone leaked the story to the Globe and Mail in early February."
Aaron Morris:
Reply to @David R. Amos:
Wernick and Trudeau probably don’t see subversion of justice due to political interference to be an important issue, that’s all.
Tom Abbott
Sorry Justin....I just don't buy it......your aide didn't call you about JWR phone conversation because of a holiday......really........what B S.
David R. Amos
Content disabled
Reply to @Tom Abbott: Methinks an amazing number of Canadains wholeheartedly agree with you today N'esy Pas?
David R. Amos
Reply to @David R. Amos: Now that was amazing
Arlond Lynds
Reply to @Tom Abbott:
It is really unforgivable that JWR handled this as she did, if she had concerns over the PM's understanding of the deferred prosecution process it it unforgivable that she did not personally speak with the PM and make sure all aspects including her own rational were clear. Warnick is just a civil servant even if the top one, she should have informed the PM herself, she has no excuse for not doing so. I would kick her out of caucus with Philpott were I in the PM's shoes. Fortunately for them he is much more forgiving than I.
David R. Amos
Reply to @Arlond Lynds: "Warnick is just a civil servant even if the top one"
Methinks it very strange indeed that nobody mentions that in January of 2016 in the second paragraph of Trudeau’s announcement ridding himself of Harper's pal Janice Charette as clerk of the Privy Council and secretary to the cabinet said “the prime minister has asked Mr. Wernick for advice on a process to fill the position on a permanent basis.”
Clearly Wernick must have advised that he was the dude for the job and no doubt Jody Wilson-Raybould and her fellow cabinet ministers approved N'esy Pas?
kenny carter
The budget would have balanced itself this year, except everyone went on holidays.
David R. Amos
Reply to @kenny
carter: Methinks many a true word is said in jest but I bet not many
folks found that funny as Mr Prime Minister Trudeau The Younger and his
many minions try to buy the next mandate byway of increasing the
National Debt in order to support their political campaigns N'esy Pas?
Jon Mark
"Well, I am going to have to report back before he leaves."
Your words Mr. Wernick.
You were either attempting a pressure tactic then, or are not being truthful now.
Adam Gajewski
Reply to @Jon Mark:
That "vacation" excuse reduced Mr. Wernick's lifetime contributions to Canadian society to zero. Sad end to a career.
That "vacation" excuse reduced Mr. Wernick's lifetime contributions to Canadian society to zero. Sad end to a career.
David R. Amos
Reply to @Adam Gajewski: Methinks it was not a moment to soon N'esy Pas?
Stacey Bindman
Reply to @Arlond Lynds:
No!
Mr. Wernick came to Ms. JWR, so he would have been responsible to report to PM Trudeau!
David R. Amos
Reply to @Stacey Bindman: I agree
Lucien Beaudet
Mr wernick told her to use all her legal tools in the box...she did mr wernick...and you got busted lol
Reply to @Lucien Beaudet:
Troy Mann
Recording someone without their knowledge is the lowest of low. She was
completely acting during the phone call, she sounded so phoney.
David R. Amos
Reply to @Lucien Beaudet: Oh So True
David R. Amos
Reply to @Troy Mann:
"Recording someone without their knowledge is the lowest of low. She was
completely acting during the phone call, she sounded so phoney."
Methinks you should not be surprised to see a liberal lawyer do such a thing N'esy Pas?
Methinks you should not be surprised to see a liberal lawyer do such a thing N'esy Pas?
David R. Amos
David R. Amos
Reply to @Stacey
Bindman: "I'm sure he would have known or should have known to report
back to PM Trudeau whether PM was at home, on a jet, or on vacation!"
David R. Amos
Reply to @Len Evans:
"As a Lawyer, & as a politician, I can only imagine she is very
strategic in how she approaches things, so I can't imagine any piece of
this whole debacle not being part of a bigger plan"
Of course
Of course
Richard Dekkar
Nobody believes you Mr. Wernick.
Lucien Beaudet
Reply to @Richard Dekkar: I second that
Jamie Gillis
Reply to @Richard Dekkar:
The phone call took place on December 19, but the PM's itinerary and Gerald B.'s twitter feed indicates both of them were working in Ottawa as late as the 21st.
The phone call took place on December 19, but the PM's itinerary and Gerald B.'s twitter feed indicates both of them were working in Ottawa as late as the 21st.
David R. Amos
Reply to @Lucien Beaudet: : I second that
Me Too
David R. Amos
Reply to @Stacey Bindman: "Gotcha, Mr. Wernick!"
Methinks that there is no way the Mr Wernick and his lawyer can ever dare to deny that I made them aware long ago that I had filed a lawsuit against the Crown in Federal Court (File No T-1557-15) as I was running in the election of the 42nd Parliament while Harper was the Prime Minister, Peter MacKay was the Attorney General and Andrew Scheer was the Speaker. Trudeau and the DND are mentioned in paragraph 83 of the complaint when he was the leader of the third party of the 41st Parliament that had been dissolved. At the time Trudeau was not a member of the government or the Privy Council . I had never heard of the liberal lawyer Jody Wilson-Raybould but i have been arguing her and her many cohorts ever since the election of the 42nd Parliament and she was sworn in to replace MacKay. N'esy Pas?
Me Too
David R. Amos
Reply to @Stacey Bindman: "Gotcha, Mr. Wernick!"
Methinks that there is no way the Mr Wernick and his lawyer can ever dare to deny that I made them aware long ago that I had filed a lawsuit against the Crown in Federal Court (File No T-1557-15) as I was running in the election of the 42nd Parliament while Harper was the Prime Minister, Peter MacKay was the Attorney General and Andrew Scheer was the Speaker. Trudeau and the DND are mentioned in paragraph 83 of the complaint when he was the leader of the third party of the 41st Parliament that had been dissolved. At the time Trudeau was not a member of the government or the Privy Council . I had never heard of the liberal lawyer Jody Wilson-Raybould but i have been arguing her and her many cohorts ever since the election of the 42nd Parliament and she was sworn in to replace MacKay. N'esy Pas?
Frank Hammerschmidt
Right up their with the "dog ate my homework" excuses.
Lorne McIntyre
Reply to @Frank
Hammerschmidt: I honestly did have a dog eat my homework. I tried to
tell the teacher, but she was on holidays.
Nancy Byng
Reply to @Lorne McIntyre: ha ha
David R. Amos
Reply to @Lorne McIntyre: Very Well Put Sir
Ernie Amundsen
You
know, I bust my hump every day trying to provide for my family and
paying well over 50% of my taxes to various levels of government.
It's truly disheartening and apalling watching these inept fools waste my money and ruin my country.
It's truly disheartening and apalling watching these inept fools waste my money and ruin my country.
Ron Brady
Reply to @Ernie Amundsen: Amen!!!
David R. Amos
Reply to @Ron Brady: I second you
Tom Shultz
Wernick, in the recently released recording, states that Trudeau is very interested in this file, is determined to get this done, then Warnick clearly states that he is going to have to report back to Trudeau.
Now, we're told that after this recording Wernick and Trudeau never spoke about the Attorney General's views on the SNC Lavalin.
That's not credible. That's not even close to credible.
Where is the RCMP?
Tracy Mann
Reply to @Tom Shultz:
Is lying a crime now in Canada?
Is lying a crime now in Canada?
David R. Amos
Reply to @Tom Shultz: "Where is the RCMP?"
Methinks Mr Prime Minister Trudeau the Younger and his many minions know that the RCMP have crawled under a rock and ware waiting for me to file my next lawsuit Anyone Can Google David Amos RCMP N'esy Pas?
David R. Amos
Reply to @Tracy Mann: "Is lying a crime now in Canada?"
Methinks you know as well as I that it is when you are under oath or playing a part in a conspiracy to obstruct justice N'esy Pas?
Methinks you know as well as I that it is when you are under oath or playing a part in a conspiracy to obstruct justice N'esy Pas?
Brian Rose
Was not important to disturb the boy wonder on one of his many taxpayer paid vacations.
David R. Amos
Reply to @Brian Rose:
Methinks Jody Wilson-Raybould ruined his fancy vacation even though the
clerk of the PCO won't admit it. However nobody can deny that Mr Prime
Minister Trudeau the Younger appointed a new Attorney General not long
after he got back to work N'esy Pas?
https://twitter.com/DavidRayAmos/with_replies
David Raymond Amos @DavidRayAmos
Replying to @DavidRayAmos @Kathryn98967631 and 47 others
Methinks I should remind the LIEbranos, Mean Little Mikey Wernick's lawyer Frank Addario and Admiral Norman's lawyer Marie Henein of when we crossed paths long ago N'esy Pas?
http://davidraymondamos3.blogspot.com/2017/03/methinks-chief-of-defence-staff-gen.html
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/wernick-wilson-raybould-recording-trudeau-holiday-break-1.5078639
---------- Original message ----------
From: "Gallant, Premier Brian (PO/CPM)" Brian.Gallant@gnb.ca
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 11:53:02 +0000
Subject: RE: Norman Sabourin, executive director of the Canadian
Judicial Council launches 'Potential misconduct' probe but only after
his associates in the Crown Corp CBC exposes hiis pals???
To: David Amos motomaniac333@gmail.com
Thank you for writing to the Premier of New Brunswick. Please be
assured that your email will be reviewed.
Nous vous remercions d’avoir communiqué avec le premier ministre du
Nouveau-Brunswick. Soyez assuré(e) que votre courriel sera examiné.
---------- Original message ----------
From: David Amos motomaniac333@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 07:52:50 -0400
Subject: Norman Sabourin, executive director of the Canadian Judicial Council launches
'Potential misconduct' probe but only after his associates in the Crown Corp CBC
exposes hiis pals???
To: Norman.Sabourin@cjc-ccm.gc.ca, harvey.cashore@cbc.ca,
marc.giroux@fja-cmf.gc.ca, mcu@justice.gc.ca, bill.pentney@justice.gc.ca,
bob.paulson@rcmp-grc.gc.ca, ralph.goodale@parl.gc.ca, hon.melanie.joly@canada.ca,
David.McGuinty@parl.gc.ca, geoff@geoffregan.ca, heather.bradley@parl.gc.ca, jan.jensen@justice.gc.ca, Jody.Wilson-Raybould.a1@parl.
premier@gnb.ca, Stephen.Horsman@gnb.ca, cmunroe@glgmlaw.com,
denis.landry2@gnb.ca, serge.rousselle@gnb.ca, brian.gallant@gnb.ca,
Katie.Telford@pmo-cpm.gc.ca, Gerald.Butts@pmo-cpm.gc.ca,
Michael.Wernick@pco-bcp.gc.ca, pm@pm.gc.ca, ht.lacroix@cbc.ca,
newsroom@globeandmail.ca, news@kingscorecord.com, steve.murphy@ctv.ca,
nmoore@bellmedia.ca, alison.crawford@cbc.ca, David.Coon@gnb.ca,
david@lutz.nb.ca, blaine.higgs@gnb.ca
Cc: david.raymond.amos@gmail.com, oldmaison@yahoo.com,
andre@jafaust.com, president@whitehouse.gov
Methinks Mr Norman Sabourin, his buddy Marc A. Giroux, Deputy Commissioner
Federal Judicial Affairs Canada and their cohorts really should be
preparing to argue mean old me in Federal Court N'esy Pas Mr Prime
Minister Trudeau "The Younger" ???
http://davidraymondamos3.
Wednesday, 8 March 2017
MEMORANDUM OF FACT AND LAW OF THE RESPONDENT ON CROSS-APPEAL
http://www.fja-cmf.gc.ca/home-
Welcome to the Website of the Office of the Commissioner for Federal
Judicial Affairs Canada
The Commissioner for Federal Judicial Affairs reports directly to the
Minister of Justice. The Office of the Commissioner was established in
1978 to safeguard the independence of the judiciary and provide
federally appointed judges with administrative services independent of
the Department of Justice.
Duties and responsibilities include:
administering Part I of the Judges Act, which deals with
eligibility for appointment, retirement age, and salaries of federally
appointed judges;
preparing a budget and providing services and staff to the
Canadian Judicial Council;
providing support to the Independent Advisory Committee for
Supreme Court of Canada Judicial Appointments;
managing the Judicial Appointments Secretariat, which administers
17 advisory committees responsible for evaluating candidates for
federal judicial appointments;
managing the Federal Courts Reports Section, which is responsible
for selecting and publishing Federal Court of Appeal and Federal Court
decisions in both official languages;
administering a judicial intranet called JUDICOM, which provides
judges with email, a secure and restricted communication system, and a
virtual library;
providing language training to judges in both official languages;
coordinating initiatives related to the Canadian judiciary's role
in international cooperation.
In order to carry out these activities and provide services to
approximately 1,100 active judges and 850 retired judges and their
survivors in Canada, the Commissioner is assisted by the Deputy
Commissioner, seven Directors and, at present, 70 other staff members.
This Web site is designed to inform all Canadians about FJA's role and
activities in judicial affairs in Canada. We welcome any requests for
information and any comments or suggestions. Please do not hesitate to
Contact Us.
Enjoy your visit to our site!
Marc A. Giroux, Deputy Commissioner
---------- Original message ----------
From: David Amos motomaniac333@gmail.com
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 19:13:47 -0400
Subject: Hey Frank you got it wrong I was offering to help your client
Justice Robin Camp BTW say Hey to Marie Henein, Alan Gold and the
ghost of Eddy Greensan for me for me
To: faddario@addario.ca, Norman.Sabourin@cjc-ccm.gc.ca,
ministryofjustice@gov.ab.ca, Kathleen.Ganley@assembly.ab.ca,
mhenein@hhllp.ca
Cc: david.raymond.amos@gmail.com, sfine@globeandmail.com
---------- Original message ----------
From: Frank Addario faddario@addario.ca
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 22:34:05 +0000
Subject: Re: A-48-16 scanned documents Hey Frank I just called from
902 800 0369 Enjoy the attachment
To: David Amos motomaniac333@gmail.com
Cc: David Amos david.raymond.amos@gmail.com
David, thanks for your phone call.
I don¹t think there is anything I can do to help you
Frank Addario
T. 1.416.649.5055
F. 1.866.714.1196
171 John Street, Suite 101
Toronto, ON M5T 1X3
http://www.addario.ca/
https://www.facebook.com/
f
https://twitter.com/
http://davidraymondamos3.
Wednesday, 7 September 2016
RE Justice Camp malicious nonsense versus the RCMP, Peter MacKay
Federal Court, the Canadian Judicial Council and its cover up of the
Monumental Newfy sexual abuse issues
---------- Original message ----------
From: William Brooks
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 16:21:58 +0000
Subject: Automatic reply: RE Justice Camp malicious nonsense versus
the RCMP, Peter MacKay Federal Court, the Canadian Judicial Council
and its cover up of the Monumental Newfy sexual abuse issues
To: David Amos
My term as Commissioner ended on August 14, 2016. Marc Giroux, Deputy
Commissioner, will be acting as Commissioner. He may be contacted at
613-947-1875 or at
marc.giroux@fja-cmf.gc.ca.
If you wish to contact me personally, I may be reached at
wm.brooks@sympatico.ca
______________________________
Mon mandat de commissaire a pris fin le 14 août 2016. Le
sous-commissaire Marc Giroux agira donc comme commissaire. Vous pouvez
communiquer avec lui au 613-947-1875 ou à
marc.giroux@fja-cmf.gc.ca
Vous pouvez communiquer avec moi à titre personnel à
wm.brooks@sympatico.ca.
Bill Brooks
Cc: david.raymond.amos@gmail.com, sfine@globeandmail.com
---------- Original message ----------
From: Frank Addario faddario@addario.ca
Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 22:34:05 +0000
Subject: Re: A-48-16 scanned documents Hey Frank I just called from
902 800 0369 Enjoy the attachment
To: David Amos motomaniac333@gmail.com
Cc: David Amos david.raymond.amos@gmail.com
David, thanks for your phone call.
I don¹t think there is anything I can do to help you
Frank Addario
T. 1.416.649.5055
F. 1.866.714.1196
171 John Street, Suite 101
Toronto, ON M5T 1X3
http://www.addario.ca/
https://www.facebook.com/
f
https://twitter.com/
http://davidraymondamos3.
Wednesday, 7 September 2016
RE Justice Camp malicious nonsense versus the RCMP, Peter MacKay
Federal Court, the Canadian Judicial Council and its cover up of the
Monumental Newfy sexual abuse issues
---------- Original message ----------
From: William Brooks
Date: Wed, 7 Sep 2016 16:21:58 +0000
Subject: Automatic reply: RE Justice Camp malicious nonsense versus
the RCMP, Peter MacKay Federal Court, the Canadian Judicial Council
and its cover up of the Monumental Newfy sexual abuse issues
To: David Amos
My term as Commissioner ended on August 14, 2016. Marc Giroux, Deputy
Commissioner, will be acting as Commissioner. He may be contacted at
613-947-1875 or at
marc.giroux@fja-cmf.gc.ca.
If you wish to contact me personally, I may be reached at
wm.brooks@sympatico.ca
______________________________
Mon mandat de commissaire a pris fin le 14 août 2016. Le
sous-commissaire Marc Giroux agira donc comme commissaire. Vous pouvez
communiquer avec lui au 613-947-1875 ou à
marc.giroux@fja-cmf.gc.ca
Vous pouvez communiquer avec moi à titre personnel à
wm.brooks@sympatico.ca.
Bill Brooks
PM wasn't briefed on Wilson-Raybould's concerns due to holiday break, says Wernick's lawyer
Lawyer for top civil servant said PM wasn't briefed on former AG's concerns as 'everyone went on holidays'
Canada's
top civil servant didn't brief Prime Minister Justin Trudeau on a
secretly recorded phone conversation with then-Attorney General Jody
Wilson-Raybould about SNC-Lavalin because everyone "went on holidays the
next day," according to his lawyer.
A statement released on Saturday by the lawyer for Michael Wernick, the clerk of the Privy Council, comes a day after the House of Commons justice committee released an audio recording made by Wilson-Raybould of a Dec. 19 call between herself and Wernick.
Wernick — who was not aware he was being recorded in the 17-minute call — is heard warning Wilson-Raybould that Trudeau was "quite determined" to prevent SNC-Lavalin's criminal trial from leading to job losses.
Wernick said Trudeau wanted to know why the then-justice minister hadn't used a new legal tool to allow the Quebec-based engineering giant to avoid a criminal trial on corruption-related charges.
Wilson-Raybould is heard repeatedly stating that she thought the conversation with Wernick was inappropriate and that she wanted to protect the prime minister and the integrity of the government.
In contrast to Wilson-Raybould's testimony on Friday where she alleged Trudeau was set on stopping the criminal prosecution, Wernick's lawyer said the PM was not aware of her concerns, and the SNC case was not a priority for the PMO.
In the statement from lawyer Frank Addario, Wernick raised the issue with the then-attorney-general "as part of his job to manage relations between the PM and his cabinet ministers."
Addario said Wernick didn't brief Trudeau on Wilson-Raybould's concerns because, following their phone conversation, "everyone went on holidays the next day."
The statement appears to shed some light on how Trudeau could have been left in the dark about Wilson-Raybould's concerns.
Trudeau's spokesperson, Cameron Ahmad, said the Prime Minister's Office was unaware of the full contents of the audio recording until it was played to lawmakers on Friday.
"When everyone returned at beginning of January, the first burning issue was the [Scott] Brison resignation and a Cabinet shuffle," the statement from Wernick's lawyer said.
"The SNC issue never made it back to the top of the discussion list."
The statement said Wernick "never discussed SNC again with the PM or PMO until someone leaked the story to the Globe and Mail in early February."
Wernick will be leaving his post as Canada's top civil servant before the federal election this fall.
Watch as Wilson-Raybould's secret SNC-Lavalin recording shines light on controversy:
A statement released on Saturday by the lawyer for Michael Wernick, the clerk of the Privy Council, comes a day after the House of Commons justice committee released an audio recording made by Wilson-Raybould of a Dec. 19 call between herself and Wernick.
Wernick — who was not aware he was being recorded in the 17-minute call — is heard warning Wilson-Raybould that Trudeau was "quite determined" to prevent SNC-Lavalin's criminal trial from leading to job losses.
Wernick said Trudeau wanted to know why the then-justice minister hadn't used a new legal tool to allow the Quebec-based engineering giant to avoid a criminal trial on corruption-related charges.
Wilson-Raybould is heard repeatedly stating that she thought the conversation with Wernick was inappropriate and that she wanted to protect the prime minister and the integrity of the government.
Conflicting claims
In contrast to Wilson-Raybould's testimony on Friday where she alleged Trudeau was set on stopping the criminal prosecution, Wernick's lawyer said the PM was not aware of her concerns, and the SNC case was not a priority for the PMO.
In the statement from lawyer Frank Addario, Wernick raised the issue with the then-attorney-general "as part of his job to manage relations between the PM and his cabinet ministers."
Addario said Wernick didn't brief Trudeau on Wilson-Raybould's concerns because, following their phone conversation, "everyone went on holidays the next day."
Trudeau's spokesperson, Cameron Ahmad, said the Prime Minister's Office was unaware of the full contents of the audio recording until it was played to lawmakers on Friday.
"When everyone returned at beginning of January, the first burning issue was the [Scott] Brison resignation and a Cabinet shuffle," the statement from Wernick's lawyer said.
"The SNC issue never made it back to the top of the discussion list."
The statement said Wernick "never discussed SNC again with the PM or PMO until someone leaked the story to the Globe and Mail in early February."
Wernick will be leaving his post as Canada's top civil servant before the federal election this fall.
Watch as Wilson-Raybould's secret SNC-Lavalin recording shines light on controversy:
The National
Wilson-Raybould's secret SNC-Lavalin recording shines light on controversy
A recording made by Jody
Wilson-Raybould of a 17-minute Dec. 19 call between herself and Privy
Council Clerk Michael Wernick has been released. This, the latest in the
unraveling SNC-Lavalin controversy that has the former attorney general
pitted against Prime Minister Justin Trudeau. 5:43
Especially when there's evidence that both Justin and Gerald were in Ottawa working as late as December 21st.
Reply to @Joe james: Methinks I should remind the LIEbranos, Mean Little Mikey Wernick's lawyer Frank Addario and Admiral Norman's lawyer Marie Henein of when we crossed paths long ago N'esy Pas?
Methinks its ain't rocket science to understand that no matter where they were the Clerk of the Privy Council could reach the Prime minister and his best buddy Mr Butts byway of the telephone just like he dd the Attorney general as she sat home alone just before Xmas N'esy Pas?