Religious Freedoms vs. LGBT Rights YEA RIGHT this is about the creation of another crooked law school

http://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/twu-law-school-1.4430834

Controversy over Trinity Western's law school should not be framed as religious freedoms vs. LGBT rights

Many of us stand at the intersection: queer Christians who want to learn in faith-based communities

By Jenna Tenn-Yuk, for CBC News Posted: Dec 04, 2017 5:00 AM ET


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David Raymond Amos

"The Supreme Court of Canada is currently hearing arguments on whether law societies in Ontario and B.C. can withhold accreditation from TWU graduates"

Gee I wonder if any of the documents I filed with the Law Society of New Brunswick were put before the Supreme Court

 

John Sollows

Good article, and I thanks Tenn-Yuk for opening a discussion which is badly needed.

Maybe religious institutions should focus more on sexual promiscuity and less on homosexuality.

John Gerrits

@John Sollows ....."OUCH".......says the Vatican and Southern Baptists

David Raymond Amos

@John Gerrits .""OUCH".......says the Vatican and Southern Baptists"

Methinks the Canadian Law Societies and the current Attorney General of Massachusetts need to explain to the Supreme Court of Canada why I sued Cardinal Bernard Francis Law and many gay and lesbian judges and lawyers in 2002


 
Marko Novak
I was recently told by a recruiter from the University of Windsor that acceptance to their law school is based less on grades and more on the applicants views on "social justice". The universities want the lawyers, judges an often times politicians of tomorrow to be pre-vetted by them to meet *their* standards of "social justice". The schools are using this to ensure that the courts will meet their pre-determined, indoctrinated version of justice in the future. With the lack of critical discussion we've seen on campuses recently, I wonder which way our courts are expected to lean shortly. How much debate do you think will be accepted in the interpretation of laws?

Simply put, Ontario and BC do not like the fact that they cannot control who gets entry to become a lawyer. How will they control the path of the courts and the country if they do not get to hand select the people who will control the courts? It made me ill when I heard that these universities would rather accept someone with a lower chance of success into their law programs as long as they meet their "social justice" standards.

If BC and Ontario get to control the morals of the next generation of their law graduates, why is it so wrong that Trinity Western gets to do the same?

Before anyone calls me a religious zealot, I'll tell you that I've been an atheist for over 30 years, don't bother.....

David Raymond Amos

@Marko Novak "How will they control the path of the courts and the country if they do not get to hand select the people who will control the courts?"

Did you notice how many judges Harper appointed to the court after he politically vetted them? Now I know for fact that justice will be a myth in Canada for quite some time after looking at whom Trudeau "The Younger" and his cohorts recently appointed to the benches.

David Raymond Amos

@Robin Blair "To conclude that this is some kind of secret government agenda to stuff the legal and political systems with extremist social justice warriors is ludicrous."

So you say. What say you take a number and stand in line to argue my next lawsuit in Federal Court?

 
Mike Smithy

If you don't agree with the rules then don't go there. Its that simple. Its a private University, not public. Nobody can tell things about you unless you purposely put it out there

.

Michael Murphy

@Mike Smithy "As I understand it most religions accept people who are homosexuals. Its practicing the acts they are against"

LOL It's okay to be a bank robber, as long as someone doesn't rob a bank?

Okay then

David Raymond Amos

@Michael Murphy "LOL It's okay to be a bank robber, as long as someone doesn't rob a bank?"

OK then I bite

What if I were to sue a bank and defeat their evil lawyers in in open court does that make me a bank robber or just a modern day Robin Hood?

 
Karen O'malley

The answer is quite simple:

Sexuality and gender are not choices. They are just facts. They cannot be changed.
Religion is a belief system. It is not a fact. It can be changed.

Therefore, biology trumps ideology, every single time.

David Raymond Amos

@Karen O'malley How does your notion of biology trump freedom of association and freedom of religion?

David Raymond Amos

@John Dirlik I agree and your words are well worth repeating. That is the undeniable and irrefutable reality and the very essence of Zionism.

 
mike holy

CANADIAN CHARTER OF RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS
Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:
Fundamental freedoms
2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.

God bless

David Raymond Amos

@mike holy FYI that Section of the Charter is the corner stone in the foundation of my lawsuit against the CrownFederal Court File No T-1557-15

Although I do not recognize the supremacy of God, the Constitution of Canada works for agnostic folks too.

Michael Murphy

@mike holy LOL people that despise the charter cherry pick it when it protects them

David Raymond Amos

@Michael Murphy Whats wrong with picking cherries?

John Dunne

@Charles F Armstrong No, they are not. They are arguing that lawyers trained in an environment that promotes religious "law" over laws of the state are pre-biased. The very reason the US forefathers specifically separated church and state.

David Raymond Amos

@John Dunne FYI We ain't Yankees and the Queen is the Protector of the Faith of the Church of England.

 
Mike Smithy

Its a choice to join this school. Its a choice to be sexually active or not. If you don't want to follow the rules why would you want to join? That doesn't make sense.

David Raymond Amos

@Mike Smithy "Its a choice to join this school. Its a choice to be sexually active or not."

Good point sir.

David Raymond Amos

@Josh Tanner "The issue is whether the provincial law societies can be forced to recognize the graduates from this law school"

And NOT what you added afterwards

Fenian Conn

I think any god worth believing in would have left us with novocaine and dentists instead of holy water and priests.

Perry Best

@Fenian Conn "instead of holy water and priests"
Man gave you holy water and priests. If you bought it... don't blame God.

David Raymond Amos

@Perry Best Yes but who created all the dentists who believe in novocaine and why to they have so many followers who give them a great deal of money? Perhaps Dentist should start a religion and become a tax free charitable organization?

  

Cy Coulterman

Saying that this college does not receive federal funding is false. Under the Harper government, Trinity received $2.6 million. In total, he gave $20 million to similar Christian colleges and universities. http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/christian-schools-received-20m-from-infrastructure-fund-1.1329280

Blanche Cote

@Cy Coulterman - they received infrastructure money to put into bricks and mortar - nothing to do with religion. However to deny them funds because they are faith based would be reverse discrimination.

David Raymond Amos

@John Dirlik "Exposing the farcical "peace process" that enables a 50-year occupation for the charade it is, is called recognizing reality."

Well done. My hat is off to you sir

David Raymond Amos

@Blanche Cote Everything is political and it always about the money with Harper and Trudeau and all that came before them excepting of course righteous old R.B. Bennett.

David Raymond Amos

@John Dirlik "The issue is not Jews but Israel's 50-year old occupation"

That is the issue in a nutshell.

David Raymond Amos 

@tom barry Methinks the Zionists are merely a very well connected political entity with mega bucks backing up their evil game. Clearly they are supported by many other political parties of all stripes throughout the world and many strange Christians as well simply because they love money too.

However Zionism is not a religion and many decent Jewish folks oppose their malicious actions. That fact is easily witnessed byway of the social media rather than the Fake News financed by Zionists and their cohorts.

Ed Toogood

Anyone who allows religion to affect the way they might do their job will not be hired by me. This includes schools and their training of these people.

James Alexander

@Ed Toogood My faith caused me to be a more effective and productive worker, Ed. It also caused me some problems when I wouldn't lie for my employer.

David Raymond Amos

@James Alexander I may be "religiously deluded" as Mr Gregorash may claim but when I had a business I would have given you a job if I knew you worked hard and were honest. That is all I ever asked from my employees. The fact they could do the job or not in the first place was irrelevant. I could teach them that. I could not teach them to be honest and diligent.

 
Jack Richards

If you are gay then why go to this college.

David Raymond Amos

@Jack Richards "If you are gay then why go to this college."

Exactly


 
Brian Cohen
I continue to be amazed at some of the comments posted here, especially by some of those who profess to be "christians".
The Jesus character from the bible, was a radical, non-violent revolutionary who hung around with lepers, hookers and crooks; he wasn't "western", never spoke English and wasn't white. He was anti-wealth, anti-death penalty, anti-public prayer (Mark 6:5), but was never anti-gay, never mentioned abortion or birth control. He never called the poor lazy, never tried to justify torture.
He did however, tell his followers to love one another and in brief, to treat everyone with respect and tolerance - the exact opposite of some posts here by some of the same people who claim to follow the words/teachings of Jesus

John Dirlik

@Steve Keith
"@Brian Cohen Better start reading the Bible again."

Brian summed up Jesus' message quite well; perhaps it is you that needs to read the New Testament?

David Raymond Amos

@John Dirlik I did. How many times will folks read that Jesus said he was the son of man before people will believe that simple statement?

Steve Keith

@John Dirlik Taking passages or part of the Bible out of context is not a summation. I have read and continue to read the new testament and I would be pleased to submit book, chapter and verse in support of the messages contained within those books. I don't believe that CBC will allow us to use their forum for that discussion though. The mention of Mark 6:5 has nothing to do with public prayer and when people asked Jesus about marriage, He told them to remember what Genesis said about God’s plan for marriage (Matthew 19:1-12). So, in this sense, Jesus did have something to say about homosexual partnerships. God only blessed sex within the committed marriage relationship of a man and a woman.

 

David Raymond Amos

@Steve Keith FYI I too am a son of the Keith Clan.

Methinks it should be a small wonder to you why I formally separated from the Keiths with respect to my forefathers and founded my own Clan in the New World that is very much out of order.

Veritas Vincit N'esy Pas?

Controversy over Trinity Western's law school should not be framed as religious freedoms vs. LGBT rights

Many of us stand at the intersection: queer Christians who want to learn in faith-based communities

By Jenna Tenn-Yuk, for CBC News Posted: Dec 04, 2017 5:00 AM ET

The Supreme Court of Canada is currently hearing arguments on whether law societies in Ontario and B.C. can withhold accreditation from TWU graduates. (Darryl Dyck/The Canadian Press) 

I remember signing my name with ease after reading the sexual conduct policy I was required to sign before entering into Christian ministry a decade ago. Among other conditions, the policy forbid premarital sex, sexual harassment and "homosexual conduct."

I had recently admitted to myself that I was gay, but I hadn't told anyone my painful secret. At the time, I was in no place to date women: I was steeped in shame and self-hatred from the entrenched homophobia of the church, media and my communities.

I was simply trying to keep myself alive and not end my life. As I came to terms with my sexuality, I didn't realize how difficult it would be working in ministry — and my experience isn't unique.

TWU at the Supreme Court

This sexual conduct policy or covenant is at the centre of the controversy surrounding Trinity Western University's (TWU) proposed law school. Many Christian organizations and schools require their staff and students to sign similar policies, whereby people are called to abstain from sexual intimacy outside of heterosexual marriage.

The Supreme Court of Canada is currently hearing arguments on whether law societies in Ontario and B.C. can withhold accreditation from TWU graduates.

Despite these harmful covenants, many LGBTQ+ people want to be in their Christian communities. Our faith — just like our sexual orientation and gender identity — is crucial to who we are and informs how we live. These faith-based communities also support us spiritually, emotionally and even financially.

• Trinity Western University heads to Supreme Court of Canada over fate of proposed law school
• Trinity Western University Law School wins legal battle in B.C. court

It's not a simple choice between our sexual orientation and gender identity, or our faith. The media discourse and arguments from the courts and TWU have been divisive, pitting religious freedoms against LGBTQ+ rights. This limited dialogue doesn't acknowledge the nuances that exist for many LGBTQ+ Christians.

For example, the B.C. Court of Appeal upheld TWU's right to operate a law school, arguing that TWU's principles aren't for everyone and there are many other options for those who don't share TWU's beliefs. For many LGBTQ+ people, however, there aren't other options. This includes queer and trans people who want to study near home, and have their law practice rooted in their Christian faith and connected to faith-based communities.

Being part of this faith-based community changed my life. People cared deeply about my personal, academic and spiritual growth, and this community became a second family away from home. As a queer woman, however, I would never be able to work for this organization under their policy.

Trinity U case back in court over Christian sex covenant

00:00 01:39

Trinity U case back in court over Christian sex covenant1:39

Many queer, trans and non-binary Christians are kicked out of their churches and communities because of who they are and who they love. I have heard numerous stories from LGBTQ+ friends and colleagues who were respected and served in leadership positions, but were quickly shunned despite the impact they had made in their communities.

By marginalizing us, Christian groups lose out on our critical and nuanced perspectives. With our voices and experiences missing in TWU's classrooms, will their future law students have a well-rounded education to protect the fundamental freedoms of LGBTQ+ people and other marginalized groups?

Living in shame

Christian covenants like the one at TWU are very harmful for LGBTQ+ people. They cause us to live in shame and silence core parts of ourselves, unable to step into the fullness of who God created us to be.

I have spent almost a decade reflecting on my time in ministry and the mandatory sexual conduct policy I signed. I never felt fully myself and constantly doubted my sexuality. I wondered if people would still love and respect me if they knew I was gay, believing I had to choose between my faith or sexuality.

It has taken me many years to reconcile my faith and sexuality. I have realized I can't dismiss one part of myself to be fulfilled in another. Sadly, I would never be able to work in this environment or attend a school like TWU if I wanted to live an authentic life as a queer Christian woman.

This controversy can't be easily separated into LGBTQ+ rights versus religious freedoms — there are those of who stand at the intersection. As the Supreme Court considers arguments from Ontario and B.C. law societies, TWU and advocacy groups, it's worth acknowledging that.