Government defends spending on law firm handling Policy 713 case
Liberals denounce ‘hypocrisy’ of PC attacks on education council’s hiring of Ontario lawyers
The Higgs government has started its final legislative sprint before this year's election defending its spending on outside law firms that are handling a range of legal disputes on behalf of the province.
Opposition Liberal Leader Susan Holt pressed the government to reveal how much it is spending on hiring outside law firms to represent the province before the courts.
Education Minister Bill Hogan has criticized the Anglophone East district education council for spending $279,917, as of April 16, to pay an Ontario law firm to challenge the province over Policy 713.
Holt says the province's spending on outside lawyers will probably be greater than that.
"This is Hypocrisy 101. With 40 to 45 lawyers on the government payroll, why hire outside counsel?" she said, demanding to know the amount.
Education Minister Bill Hogan said last week he will seek to dissolve the Anglophone East district education council. (Ed Hunter/CBC)
Hogan did not provide one but instead defended his position that the education council should repeal its own implementation policy on Policy 713.
"We are going to continue to defend parent rights," he said. "I'll defend it today, I'll defend it tomorrow, I'll defend it from this day forward until the election, through the next election and after that."
The provincial policy requires school staff to get parental consent before students under the age of 16 can choose new names and pronouns to use at school to reflect their gender identity.
The district is arguing that Policy 713 violates the rights of 2SLGBTQ+ students, and it's asking for an injunction to block Hogan from repealing its own implementation policy, which gives students more leeway and says the Charter of Rights and Freedoms trumps the policy.
Hogan later told reporters that the dollar figure Holt was looking for wasn't under the purview of his department.
Attorney
General Ted Flemming says it's been common for all governments to have
hired outside firms in exceptional cases that require a 'concentrated
amount of effort.' (Ed Hunter/CBC)
Attorney General Ted Flemming didn't speak to reporters Tuesday and didn't provide an amount for the legal expenses during Question Period.
He suggested the spending is necessary because the province refuses to settle lawsuits brought against it in court.
"The province is the defendant. The province is being sued. We are not suing anybody," he said.
"We don't fold like a cheap tent the way the Liberals used to on a lot of legal stuff."
The government, however, is planning to launch its own legal action soon.
Hogan said last week he will seek to dissolve the Anglophone East district education council over its spending on its lawsuit.
That requires a cabinet order and the filing of an application to the Court of King's Bench.
It wasn't clear whether an outside firm will handle that, but lawyer Clarence Bennett from the law firm Stewart McKelvey is defending the province in the education council's action and used the word "we" in court last week when talking about the minister's dissolution application.
PC Party advertises petition
The Progressive Conservative party is using the education council's spending on its court case to collect names and email addresses from New Brunswickers.
A party advertisement on social media mentions the case and invites people to sign a petition agreeing with "the common sense approach that education dollars should be spent on education."
Hogan said he did not "represent" the party, but as a PC member, he said the party "comes up with its own strategy and I support the strategies that they choose to use."
He repeated his position that Anglophone East isn't authorized to spend money from its budget on anything other than education, and that he has the power to dissolve them if they don't comply.
"What we're doing is we're following the steps as are outlined in the Education Act, which is a law," he said in Question Period.
Flemming said while staff government lawyers handle routine legal services, it's been common for all governments to have hired outside firms in exceptional cases that require a "concentrated amount of effort."
Holt also raised the government's spending on law firms defending a lawsuit by the Canadian Union of Public Employees over government pension reforms.
She also noted the province is using two outside law firms on Indigenous issues — not just on a major land claim dispute but also on a range of consultations and discussions with First Nations.
Tuesday's sitting was the start of four remaining sitting weeks — broken up by one break week — before MLAs adjourn for the summer, and likely for good, on June 7.
They are unlikely to sit again before the legislature is dissolved on Sept. 19 for the Oct. 21 election, where Premier Blaine Higgs will attempt to extend his six-year stretch in power.
ABOUT THE AUTHOR
Nope, you fight to the last dime on losing case after losing case.
https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/2060205/faytene-hampton-john-herron-liberal
"It is mind numbing to see how much wasted time, effort, money and resources are being wasted by smal..."
Reply to Art McCarthy
Who was consulted?
She gets people who thing the same as her via social media to organize. And she does not even live in the province.
It's not real conservatism - it's an attack on it while wearing a disguise.
Growth of GDP/capita, Canada: 2003 - 16.68%, 2004 - 13.58%, 2005 - 13.19%, 2006 - 11.33%, 2007 - 10.26%, 2008 - 4.59%, 2009 - minus 12.49%, 2010 - 16.36%, 2011 - 9.800%, 2012 - 0.85%, 2013 - minus 0.06%, 2014 - minus 3.19%, 2015 - minus 14.44%, 2016 - minus2.94%, 2017 - 6.65%, 2018 - 3.14%, 2019 - minus 0.37%, 2020 - minus 6.06%, 2021 - 20.55%, 2022 - 5.73%.
Year over year increases in total GDP do not necessarily translate to an increase in rate of growth in GDP/capita.
In the above time span, the rate of growth in GDP/capita was only on the increase in 2010, 2016, 2017 and 2021.
Furthermore, our GDP per capita (inflation adjusted) has grown by only 1.9% since the current federal government took office in 2015. During the same period, for comparison's sake, the United States growth has been a whopping 8 times higher.
And, looking ahead, from now to 2030 Canada is projected to have the slowest rate of GDP per capita growth among the 38 developed countries in the OECD.
Simply put, our economy is stalling relative to past performance and all other comparable countries around the world.
It's time to stop pretending that all is well.
Your socialist leanings are quite obvious, and you need to realize that there are (thank goodness) many who disagree with you.
Though I had read that early Romans used volcanic ash in their cement formula.
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All Comments
Comment by Howard Otoole.
Manufactured issues that are meant to stoke division and rally support for a political party and deflect attention away from more pressing issues, is a strategy that should be rejected. Remember the face covering ban that Harper thought would resonate with the public?
Comment by Timothy Walton.
"We don't fold like a cheap tent the way the Liberals used to on a lot of legal stuff."
Nope, you fight to the last dime on losing case after losing case.
Reply by William Peters.
And they are constantly dropping their cases the minute they realize they will not win. It allows them to project strength. Its an abuse of the legal system to use it as a political theater. They don't seem to care. They want their base to feel they are being held back by things authoritarians would rather not have in place.
Reply by David Amos.
I believe even Teddy understands why I call it a circus
Comment by Bruce Dagsvik.
Higgs is riding 713 into the next election and will win because of this bill. There is little, if anything, different about the parties beyond the stance on 713. Higgs would likely have been ousted just because voters get tired of the same old faces. Not now.
Reply by Art McCarthy.
This policy is a symptom of the Faytene folly; overt rage-farming and division. That very much differentiates the GOP-like PC's from the Liberals. I hope NB'ers are as tired of the intransigence and science-and-facts be damned thinking of this 1-man gov't.
Reply by David Amos.
Faytene ain't elected yet Methinks Herron gets nominated today N'esy Pas?https://ici.radio-canada.ca/nouvelle/2060205/faytene-hampton-john-herron-liberal
Reply by William Peters.
The Liberal party currently has a very weak and docile voice. It's certainly troubling. It would appear that they think they can win by having a protest vote against Higgs. I'm not looking to it. We can do better with Greens or NDP to take seats away from the mainstream, winning an election be damned. The COR will have its challenges from within the Loyalist belt from Conservatives who will have switched sides to find a home. It's a mess right now. The friends of theocrats sense they may make gains. We may find ourselves drawn into terrible right wing false choices about who to blame for the fact our society is clearly discontent. That tis not coming from pronouns. It is coming from really bad economic philosophies common to mainstream parties who have trouble opposing each other on the points of belief.
Hidden comment.
Reply by Dan Lee.
Ronald......i........
Reply by Art McCarthy.
It's mind-numbing to create policy without an understanding that it must abide by all law (federal, provincial, municipal), including the Constitution and Charter of Rights. Even more mind-numbing to hire lawyers to fight to retain policy that violates the law.
Reply by Kyle Woodman.
Wrong again Ronald.
Reply by David Amos.
He is busy today eh?Reply by David Amos.
Can you repost what your alter ego said?Reply by David Amos.
Is this a portion of it???
"It is mind numbing to see how much wasted time, effort, money and resources are being wasted by smal..."
Reply by William Peters.
All things that madden authoritarians who know better how things ought to be to not have them be thwarted When they win an election they inherently feel they have won a lottery and that they are due the absolute right to change everything. They use the success of the Irving Empire to suggest that they know the way.
Comment by Eugene Peabody.
A good way to increase donations to PCNB when ordinary sources are drying up.
Comment by Raymond Leger.
Sad state of affairs we have here in New Brunswick
Comment by David Amos.
The final days of Higgy's legislative sprint end during Apple Blossom Time. I bet he has the writ dropped immediately afterwards
Comment by David Amos.
Seems that Susan Holt hasn't read the letters I got from government lawyersComment by David Amos.
"We don't fold like a cheap tent the way the Liberals used to on a lot of legal stuff."
Oh My My Methinks Teddy is referring to the circus tent N'esy Pas?
Reply by Wilbur Ross.
One of those great big outdoor gospel tents.
Reply by David Amos.
A 3 ringer with elephants and clowns etc
Reply by Wilbur Ross.
You know it.
Reply by David Amos.
- I will trade you some popcorn for peanuts. I ran out treating the elephants
Comment by Wilbur Ross.
The only thing the Tories spend money on is lawyers to help them circumvent the Constitution. They've got Bay St. law firms working round the clock to figure out ways to take away our constitutional rights. No expense will be spared and it will cost taxpayers millions for Higgs to just end up using Section 33 anyway. The Charter of Right and Freedoms is no match for craven GOP Republicans like Higgs, Moe, Smith, Ford and now Poilievre. Maybe they'll get invited to speak at CPAC like Viktor Orbán.
Reply by David Amos.
New Brunswick does not have a Constitution
Reply by David Amos.
Do you recall the results of the referendum on the Charlottetown Accord???
Reply by David Amos.
BTW the last attempt at constitutional change was made in 2017. Quebec premier Philippe Couillard wanted Quebec to sign the constitution that year as part of Canada’s 150th birthday. But his efforts were flatly rejected by Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.
Comment by Ralph Steinberg.
Those under the age of 16 could never change their name legally anyways.
Higgs and his ideology pushing and meddling.....imho.
Reply by Dave Gordon.
Having policy that aligns with the law. Oh the horror
Reply by Rafferty Mccorckle.
Nobody should have to demand a parent is notified. It should go without saying.
Reply by Dave Gordon.
Especially when it comes to young children. Teachers keeping important information from parent’s is a slippery slope
Reply by Wilbur Ross.
Higgs' voters are prime targets for phone scammers.
Reply by Mathieu Laperriere.
No good parent would need to be notified anyway. They would already be figuring things out and talking to their kid.
Reply by Jim Lake.
Not all parents can be trusted to be notified … not all parents would treat their children fairly … some would evict their children … some would hurt their children … so some don’t deserve to be notified … it is children of these parents our school boards and educators are trying to protect - Higgs and Hogan’s stance puts these children at risk.
Reply by David Amos.
You know some nasty parents eh?Reply by David Amos.
So you say
Reply by David Amos.
I agree
Reply by David Amos.
Even a busted clock is correct twice a day eh?
Reply by David Amos.
It was Higgy's old buddy Cardy who started this ball rolling Remember?
Comment by Ralph Steinberg.
What about nick names? Do they have to get consent for nick names kids give each other, or self announce too? The fact is, the kids can get their peers to call them whatever they want, and the provincial government cannot do a thing about this.
This is the right and religious stepping in it. Sure the parents should know, if the kid wants them to know........some are afraid of their parents reaction, do to outdated beliefs, imho.
Reply by Rafferty Mccorckle.
So the legal name is called out for attendance and is the name used for any official correspondence? Should nick names be notified? No. Of course not.
Comment by Bill Watson.
I support the NB government in this matter.
Reply by David Wilson.
Why?
Reply by David Wilson.
No idea eh?
Reply by Rob A Ross.
Of course you do. You just saw “PC government” and skipped bothering to even think about the issue.
Reply by David Amos.
Not me Some say I say Methinks too much However everybody knows I am no PC fanboy but at least I have admitted many times that I agree with Higgy on this issue N'esy Pas?
Comment by Steven Sako.
Liberals are done. It would be best if they sat down and stopped meddling with Canada.
Reply by ralph jacobs.
I really feel sorry for whoever gets to replace them. There is a terrible mess to clean up.
Reply by Graham McCormack.
If only that had anything to do with this story.
Reply by David Wilson.
Feel free to cast your vote in 18 months.
Reply by Ralph Steinberg.
Amusing, it is the Higgs government putting in legislation, to meddle with families.........
Reply by Rafferty Mccorckle.
You'd have to twist logic into a pretzel to come up with that. Requiring families to be notified is meddling?
Reply by Wilbur Ross.
Higgs is a Tory.
Comment by Dave Sellers.
From the article..
" This hypocrisy 101".
Reply by Dave Sellers.
is
Reply by David Wilson.
Referring to hiring outside lawyers while having 40 to 45 lawyers already on the government payroll.
Comment by Dave Gordon.
It appears you can’t legally change your name till 16 without parental consent in NB so this is just onside with the law
Reply by MR Cain.
This has to do with sexual orientation and gender identification; nobody is legally changing their name.
Reply by Dave Gordon.
Correct. Because you can’t without permission from a parent or guardian
Reply by Ralph Steinberg.
And you never could anyways.
Reply by Wilbur Ross.
What a lame waste of money.
Reply by MR Cain.
That is not the issue. The issue is the use of pronouns to reflect the child's SOGI.
Comment by Dave Sellers.
," This is hypocrisy 101" says the Liberals.
Oh the irony...
Reply by Mandel Rooney.
Irony is used incorrectly almost every time. Irony is saying the opposite of what you mean. So saying hypocrcy 101 would mean honesty 101
Is that what they meant?
Comment by Mike Van Fleet.
Easy fix to this. Only educated people should be elected.
Yes, all of us can still run. Fortunately, the best will get elected.
Reply by MR Cain.
No, the one with the most votes.
Comment by MR Cain.
SOGI 123 is a resource endorsed by the Ontario provincial education ministry. The program website has a guide that focuses on addressing discrimination and bullying, creating a supportive and inclusive environment for LGBTQ students, and acknowledging there are people of varying genders and sexual orientations. Good enough for Ford, good enough for us.
Comment by Jim Lake.
Government lawyers probably told the government they should settle and/or not challenge the suit as their defence has little, if any, merit … so they choose to waste taxpayer dollars on an outside firm that will do whatever the premier and Hogan want.
Comment by MR Cain.
Among Canadian youth aged 12 to 17 years, approximately 0.5% were classified as non-cisgender, with 0.2% identifying as nonbinary and 0.2% transgender. Stands to reason that if the population of New Brunswick is less than 3% of Canada, and there is about 6% of the population aged 12 to 17 years, there are about 350 children in New Brunswick directly affected by the policy in question. 40 to 50% could be considered at risk of mental or physical abuse. Shameful conduct of this government.
Hidden comment.
Reply by MR Cain.
no
Reply by Mike Fowler.
Which province are you in where schools are conducting medical procedures on students?
Reply by Mandel Rooney.
Seek help. I'm sure you've "done your research" and all but ...
Reply by David Amos.
He is not alone
Comment by clay bergen.
Parental rights come first.
Reply by MR Cain.
after the child's
Reply by clay bergen.
When they are 16
Reply by MR Cain.
when they are born
Reply by Dave Sellers.
Hahaha!
Reply by Graham McCormack.
Strike 2
Reply by MR Cain.
Hahaha!
Reply by David Amos.
What about before they are born?
Comment by ralph jacobs.
They should sit down and discuss what the Charter of Rights and Freedoms really mean. It seems so many think it means you have the right to do what ever you want no matter who it affects good or bad.
Reply by Steph Roche.
that is the most relevant and lucid comment on this subject in months!
Comment by David Wilson.
Higgs refused to condemn conversion therapy. So you do not really need to need to dig much deeper into his position.
Comment by Howard Otoole.
This whole"parental rights" issue is misrepresented and a smokescreen designed for political gain. Who brought in Policy 713 after extensive consultation? This government did! There was never a groundswell of opposition, in fact most people didn't even know about it until it was revealed that changes were being considered. Understand that it was applicable to a miniscule percentage of students. Meanwhile our students are are underperforming and often graduate without a sound education. Why does NB have so few International Baccalaureate programs compared to Nova Scotia? Do parents know of this discrepancy?
Reply by Walter Vrbetic.
If, as you say... " brought in Policy 713 after extensive consultation?"
Who was consulted?
Reply by MR Cain.
The policy revisions were made following consultations with parents, families, students, teachers, the Child and Youth Advocate and other key stakeholders, as well as based on the feedback of hundreds of individuals and groups who wrote submissions.
Reply by Ralph Steinberg.
And we know the groups that Higgs has been listening to. And the one lady and her group, are from outside the province. And that woman travels around the country, inserting herself and her ideology into places she does not live, or have a say in.
She gets people who thing the same as her via social media to organize. And she does not even live in the province.
Reply by David Amos.
Higgy never consulted me but I agree with him anyway
Comment by David Wilson.
What a horribly discriminatory policy.
Reply by Don Corey.
Subjective opinion.
Reply by David Wilson.
Only subjective if you are pro discrimination
Reply by Don Corey.
You’ve just confirmed my comment.
Reply by David Amos.
Welcome back to the circusReply by David Amos.
- Geez as usual I can't welcome you back to the bigtop
Comment by MR Cain.
"A (PC) party advertisement on social media mentions the case and invites people to sign a petition agreeing with "the common sense approach that education dollars should be spent on education." Then why is the government wasting our money in court over a non-education issue?!!
Reply by Don Corey.
So why is the politically motivated DEC also wasting $300,000 and counting of their education funds on the same issue? Is that ok with you?
Reply by Graham McCormack.
By politically motivated, do you mean protecting the human rights of the students they serve?
Hidden reply.
Reply by Graham McCormack.
In other words, you don't know what politically motivated actually means.
Reply by Jay Miller.
No political motivation - simply a defence of the rights of vulnerable kids / youths which Higgs and Hogan want to take away!
Reply by David Amos.
I do
Comment by Rolando Friedman.
Hold the line Higgs.
Parents are counting on you.
Reply by Graham McCormack.
Nope
Reply by Lionel Nielsen.
Yup.
Reply by Graham McCormack.
Only a few who are like Faytene
Hidden comment.
Reply by Don Corey.
Your interpretation is correct.
Reply by David Wilson.
The Higgs government should not have imposed this discriminatory polivy to begin with, let alone defend it.
Reply by Don Corey.
Why? Do you not understand anything about parental rights and responsibilities? Are you a constitutional lawyer?
Reply by David Wilson.
I understand the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
Reply by Dave Sellers.
Do you understand the EA?
Reply by Graham McCormack.
The Higgs government employs lawyers, why do they need to hire expensive outsiders?
Reply by Don Corey.
No, you don’t.
Reply by Christine Martinez.
It's hardly a discriminatory polivy. Or even a discriminatory policy, for that matter.
Reply by David Amos.
I concur
Reply by David Amos.
Ditto
Reply by David Amos.
I will give you 3 guesses before I tell you
Comment by Don Corey.
So Holt thinks it’s ok for the rebel DEC to spend $300,000 of taxpayer money (and counting) on lawyers, but the province shouldn’t be allowed to defend its position. Interesting….will not serve her well when election time comes.
Reply by Graham McCormack.
You realize the government has in-house council, right?
Reply by Don Corey.
You do realize the complexity of the issue(s) at play? Why do you think the DEC went for out of province legal assistance? How many in house lawyers are actually qualified to take on the case?
Reply by Graham McCormack.
Constitutional case, if the government doesn't have constitutional lawyers that is another failure.
Reply by David Amos.
Clearly you have not argued many lawyers
Reply by David Amos.
Have you ever seen New Brunswick's Constitution?
Comment by Inger Nielsen.
time for Higgs and party to go! election can not come soon enough
Comment by William Peters.
Higgs is showing disdain for this Province and the people in it. He is putting his trust in "different ideas from the exterior" to quote his words. What you think about how things should be in NB is better given to you from outside. Here we tend to know too much about who runs the show and what the gig is about. Fighting for parent's rights is the best they could come up with so far. Always "for" something. Never painting themselves as being against everything that NBers might prefer. The COR has always been defined by "anti" this or that. They are "for" their tribe.
Reply by Lou Bell.
Sure . He's against unabated debt , fiscal reposnsibility , , unlike the Liberals . And really , what do they stand for ? Their " vote by sticker " leader has shown so far they're a party of no ideas , as always , other than spend , spend , spend . They spent millions for extra Nursing seats to 2 NB Universities and we got not even one seat out of it . Not one . Then they complain about a Nursing shortage . All they needed to do was to do their due diligence to assure we got a few extra seats for the millions they spent . A very small job . Couldn't get the job done . Not even one seat . Paid for them . Just didn't get any .
Reply by Don Corey.
It’s obvious that your strong socialist beliefs do not extend to recognizing parental rights, responsibilities and challenges when it comes to raising a family.
Reply by David Amos.
Its not permitted
Reply by William Peters.
He's not your father in Fredericton speaking for your father in Heaven. There are no Constitutional rights of the parent. That's an appeal to your sense of ownership over your children and to your authoritarian position over them. Of course he wants to foster this way of thinking.
Reply by William Peters.
All things you would want to have stick as slogans to create a dialectic to easily control people. He's no more fiscally responsible than anyone else. He pours public money into his just causes just as furiously as anyone else who wants to exploit power. Identity politics is what wants you to vote for a faction you are set up to identify with. We are all Liberals, philosophically speaking. We live in a society that was set up as a liberal democracy--not one that is set up to defend the rights of those who came before who are already gifted with advantage. To want to rule by authority and meritocracy is the old Tory way of thinking that was loyalist to monarchs who derive their power from the "divine rights of Kings . Vote Green my friend if you want to oppose the established factions. We' re lucky that we have multiple parties here that can work to serve us with only minority governments. You are falling in line with very flawed economic thinking if you follow the mainstream.
Reply by David Amos.
My Father is in a grave just outside Moncton
Comment by Gabriel Boucher.
Here's a crazy idea. How about you just drop the bill entirely and save up on taxpayer's money instead? I swear, this government is incompetent in quite literally every single department. Time for Higgs and friends to pack their bags and leave politics, permanently.
Reply by Don Corey.
Of course you are fine with the politically biased DEC continuing to spend lots on lawyers, and with money intended for kids’ education. Hmmmm…..
Reply by David Amos.
- Of course he is
Comment by Claude Martel.
So they realize they need help from big firms to simply prove they are right?
Reply by Don Corey.
That’s why the DEC is wasting all our money. Why should the government not do the same?
Reply by Graham McCormack.
The government employs lawyers, why go outside?
Reply by David Amos.
I still laughing at the letter I got from the best lawyer the last liberal Attorney General hadReply by David Amos.
Seems that I can't convey much to you this evening
Comment by Roger devry.
lucrative times for being a lawyer
Reply by David Amos.
It always is
Comment by JOhn D Bond.
Just call the darn election and get this over with. Imagine, the lawyers on the Governments payroll are to busy. That there are no lawyers in the Province capable of defending the government in Court. If I were a defense lawyer in the province I would be pretty upset with the province outsourcing to a law firm in another province.
Reply by Lou Bell.
Obviously , you have no idea there are specialists in Law , much like with Doctors , Engineers , Scientists . A Family Lawyer may not be the best in this case don't ye think ?
Reply by JOhn D Bond.
A quick google search might save you from embarrassment. I encourage you to do a search for constitutional lawyers in New Brunswick. What was that about doctors.
Reply by David Amos.
Methinks everybody knows that I never met a lawyer whom I didn't love to argue no matter what their specialty was N'esy Pas?
Reply by David Amos.
A quick google search of "David Raymond Amos versus Her Majesty the Queen T-1557-15" would cause Lou lots of embarrassment
Oh My My Methinks Teddy is referring to the circus tent N'esy Pas?