Friday, 22 May 2026

Risk and reward for Holt Liberals as they reopen bilingualism debate in N.B


 
 

Risk and reward for Holt Liberals as they reopen bilingualism debate in N.B.

Committee of MLAs will travel the province to hear from the public — the first such consultation in 4 decades

Premier Susan Holt’s Liberals are putting their commitment to listening to a major political test, inviting New Brunswickers to speak up on one of the province’s most delicate issues: official bilingualism.

A committee of MLAs held the first of three weeks of hearings at the legislature this week as part of a review of the Official Languages Act.

Next month, the committee will go on the road to hear directly from New Brunswickers in nine communities around the province, from Caraquet and Grand Falls to Woodstock and Saint John.

It’s a major shift from the secretive approach used in the last two reviews of the act.

Language issues can flare up easily in New Brunswick, as they did the last time a major public consultation took place four decades ago.

WATCH | ‘It’s worth doing it’: Committee of MLAs tackles thorny language issue:
 
Language law hearings go public with Holt Liberals
10 hours ago|
Duration 4:20
 
MLA says there are risks and rewards to ending closed-door consultations.

“The risk is there, I agree, but I think also the reward is greater,” said Liberal MLA Benoît  Bourque, who is chairing the committee.

“Because of that, I think it’s worth doing it. I think the good news is there is a majority of New Brunswickers that feel that bilingualism and the Official Languages Act is a positive thing.” 

The 2002 Official Languages Act requires a mandatory review every 10 years. 

The 2021 review by Blaine Higgs’s Progressive Conservative government involved quiet consultations with stakeholders behind the scenes.

In 2012, a committee of MLAs held hearings, but behind closed doors, a decision that Marie-Claude Blais, the PC attorney general at the time, said was justified.

"This is not an easy subject,” she said. “We all know in past history how this can bring out — people have different positions.”

Two people sitting at a deskDenis Lavoie and Pascale Rioux-Doucet of the Association des juristes d’expression française du Nouveau-Brunswick were part of the committee's hearings. (Jacques Poitras/CBC)

She was referring to language hearings in the 1980s on a government-commissioned report that recommended an expansion of language duality in provincial institutions beyond the school system.

The government of Richard Hatfield opted not to implement the report after hearings by an independent commission were marked by hostile comments, shouting and, in one case, someone throwing an egg at the commissioners.

The three days of hearings at the legislature this week were considerably different.

Several francophone stakeholder groups and others called for updates to the act with no hot-button exchanges or polarizing moments.

Suggestions from francophone organizations include giving enforcement powers for the official languages commissioner, requiring all court decisions be published in both English and French, and clarifying how the act applies to nursing homes.

 

A view of people at desks in a room The committee under the Holt government is being held openly. (New Brunswick Legislature Livestream)

Nicole Arseneau Sluyter, the Acadian Society of New Brunswick president, said as a francophone living in Saint John, she did not expect to get nursing home services in her mother tongue in the future.

And Richard Losier, the New Brunswick Association of Nursing Homes CEO, warned against “a blanket approach” of requiring bilingual services in all homes.

“For some people, it’s very simple in their minds,” he told MLAs. “But it’s not as simple as that.”

Denis Lavoie, the president of an association of French-speaking lawyers, said holding these hearings in full public view was the right choice.

“Look, it’s super. I think it needs to be publicly addressed. It’s important for all citizens of New Brunswick, whatever first language is yours, I think it’s a must, and it helps to educate the citizens of the issues that are present.”

The push for changes to the act follows six years of frustration from francophone groups that felt former premier Higgs wasn’t sympathetic to their concerns.

Higgs argued in 2022 that “no one has lost anything, not one single thing” as a result of the independent review he commissioned.

His PC government created an official languages secretariat within the civil service but took a pass on substantive changes to the law itself.

The 2021 review also recommended reviews every five years, a suggestion Holt promised to implement during the last election.

With a large contingent of francophones in Holt’s Liberal caucus, there are now higher expectations.

“There seems to be a larger opening of minds in relation to this issue,” Lavoie said.

There are risks for the Liberals, however.

When bilingualism is thrust back into the public eye, any controversy can be made into a language issue.

At least one PC MLA has accused the Liberals of favouring francophone areas of the province with their decisions on tourism funding cuts. 

“I think she’s trying to be divisive, to create a division between the French and the English,” Albert-Riverview MLA Sherry Wilson said recently.

She was commenting on increased spending for the Village Historique Acadien and Parlee Beach at the same as cuts to Cape Enrage in her riding.

Wilson declined a request this week to elaborate on her comments.

In 2018, then-premier Brian Gallant said he regretted not tackling the language issue more directly during his four years in power, which were marked by several bilingualism controversies. 

“I should have talked more about its benefits to our economy and to our social fabric,” Gallant said in his final speech in the legislature as premier before losing a confidence vote.

“I also should have acknowledged more frequently the concerns of some with regard to how they felt bilingualism was impacting their lives in a negative way, while also publicly busting some of the myths about bilingualism.”

Bourque said this week the committee wants to have “most people heard properly … in an open and transparent fashion.” 

Following this week’s hearings at the legislature, the remaining sessions will take place from June 16 to 26 in Grand Falls, Campbellton, Petit-Rocher, Caraquet, Rogersville, Moncton, Saint John, Fredericton and Woodstock.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR


Jacques Poitras

Provincial Affairs reporter

Jacques Poitras has been CBC's provincial affairs reporter in New Brunswick since 2000. He grew up in Moncton and covered Parliament in Ottawa for the New Brunswick Telegraph-Journal. He has reported on every New Brunswick election since 1995 and won awards from the Radio Television Digital News Association, the National Newspaper Awards and Amnesty International. He is also the author of five non-fiction books about New Brunswick politics and history.

 
 
https://www.gnb.ca/en/news/n-b.2026.02.written-briefs-sought-by-standing-committee-on-official-languages.html

Written briefs sought by standing committee on official languages

The standing committee on official languages is inviting written briefs from the public as it begins the first phase of a consultation exercise.

Release

Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick

February 17, 2026

FREDERICTON (GNB) – The standing committee on official languages is inviting written briefs from the public as it begins the first phase of a consultation exercise.

The all-party committee has been mandated by the house to undertake a review of the Official Languages Act and recommendations in the Report of the 2021 Review of the Official Languages Act of New Brunswick, and to present its recommendations to the legislative assembly by Dec. 31.

The committee is seeking opinions on the implementation of the 2021 report and any factors since its publication that should be taken into account when revising the act.

“The Official Languages Act is fundamental to who we are as New Brunswickers,” said Beausoleil-Grand-Bouctouche-Kent MLA Benoît Bourque, who chairs the committee. “As we begin this review, our committee wants to hear directly from citizens, organizations and stakeholders across the province. The 2021 report sets out important recommendations, and this consultation is an opportunity to reflect on the progress made and the work still ahead. I encourage New Brunswickers to share their perspectives and help ensure our Official Languages Act continues to protect and strengthen our province’s unique bilingual character for generations to come.”

Briefs will be accepted until April 8. It is recommended that they be original submissions and not exceed 1,000 words. They may be submitted by email to leg-consultations@legnb.ca or by mail to: Office of the Clerk, Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick, P.O. Box 6000, Fredericton, N.B., E3B 5H1.

More information about the committee and its work is available online.

Related topics

Media Contact(s)

John-Patrick McCleave, clerk assistant and clerk of committees, Legislative Assembly of New Brunswick, 506-453-6215, jp.mccleave@legnb.ca.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 May 21, 2026 
 
NOTICE OF MEETINGSTANDING COMMITTEE ON OFFICIAL LANGUAGES 
 
The Standing Committee on Official Languages will meet in the Legislative Council Chamber on Thursday, May28, 2026, from10a.m.until noon. 
By order of the Chair. 
John-Patrick McCleave 
Clerk Assistant and Clerk of Committees
 
 AGENDA 
Review of the Official Languages Act 
Appearing: 
Shirley C. MacLean, K.C.,Commissioner of Official Languages,
Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages for New Brunswick. 
 
The members of the Committee are Mr.Bourque, Ms.Wilcott, Mr.M.LeBlanc, Ms.Sodhi, Mr.Doucet, Hon.Ms.Thériault, Hon.Mr.Randall, Mr.Savoie, Ms.M.Johnson, Mr.Hogan and Mr.Coon.
 
 

Shirley C. MacLean, K.C.

Commissioner of Official Languages for New Brunswick

 

Shirley C. MacLean is from Baddeck, Cape Breton. After obtaining a Bachelor of Arts degree from St. Francis Xavier University in 1984, she attended Laval University in Quebec City to study French.

In 1990, Shirley MacLean obtained her law degree from University of New Brunswick. She practised law with Hanson Hashey in Fredericton and then joined the Law Society of New Brunswick in 1994 as the Director of Admissions. In 2003, Ms. MacLean became the Society’s Assistant Executive Director and Registrar of Complaints.

In December 2013, Shirley MacLean was appointed Queen’s Counsel. In 2016 Ms. MacLean became the Chair of the Mental Health Tribunal in Fredericton since 2016.

Very involved in her community, Shirley MacLean is a board member of the Healing and Cancer Foundation, member of a patent navigator pilot project in oncology with Horizon Health, is a member of a Syrian Refugee Sponsorship Committee. She is a board member of the New Brunswick Highland Games Festival, and she has started playing tenor drum with a local competition pipe band.

Shirley MacLean was appointed Commissioner of on January 2, 2020, for a seven-year term, she is the third person and the first anglophone to hold this position.

The Commissioner of Official Languages for New Brunswick is an independent officer of the Legislative Assembly. Her role is to investigate, report on and make recommendations with regard to compliance with the Official Languages Act. She is also responsible for the promotion of the advancement of both official languages in the province.

Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages for New Brunswick

440 King Street
King Tower, #646
Fredericton NB E3B 5H8
 

Telephone (TYY): 506-444-4229
Toll free (TYY): 1-888-651-6444
Facsimile: 506-444-4456
Email: commissioner@officiallanguages.nb.ca

 
 

Benoît Bourque was first elected to the Legislative Assembly in the September 2014 provincial election, and he was re-elected in 2018 and 2020 as member for Kent South. He was re-elected in 2024 as member for the new riding of Beausoleil—Grand-Bouctouche—Kent. He was Minister of Health from September 2017 to November 2018. He was also Minister responsible for Service New Brunswick from May 2018 to November 2018, in addition to briefly (October and November 2018) serving as Acting Minister of Aquaculture and Fisheries. In 2017, he was Chair of the Select Committee on Cannabis. He also serves or has served on many standing committees and was appointed Chair of the new Standing Committee on Official Languages in 2024.

Mr. Bourque has a bachelor’s degree in secondary education from the Université de Moncton and a master’s degree in international relations from the Université Laval. He has considerable training and teaching experience, which he gained as a school teacher, a facilitator for various workshops and training sessions, and a lecturer at the Université de Moncton.

He worked for about 15 years in international relations and cooperation in the public, parapublic, and private sectors. He was, among other things, director of the international relations office at the Université de Moncton from 2003 to 2012 and director of Concordia International at Concordia University, in Montreal, in 2012. In addition to visiting and working in about 30 countries, he worked for an extended period in Indonesia, Tunisia, and Romania. 

Mr. Bourque lives in Grand-Bouctouche, New Brunswick, where he has a strong record of community service.

Constituency Office

Mainline Phone (506) 743-0335
Address 30 Évangéline Street, Centre J.K. Irving
Bouctouche
E4S 3E4

Committee

David Coon became the first Green Party MLA elected to the Provincial Legislature in 2014, representing the people of Fredericton South. He was re-elected as the MLA for Fredericton South in 2018 and 2020. Most recently he was elected as the MLA for the new riding of Fredericton Lincoln on October 21, 2024. He has served as the Leader of the New Brunswick Green Party since 2012. 

In the Legislative Assembly, Mr. Coon has introduced bills to improve social assistance, strengthen tenant protections, establish a rent cap, expand the use of renewable energy, establish fair access to the lumber market for woodlot owners, end glyphosate spraying on Crown lands, ban fracking, enhance property tax fairness, boost local food security, lower the voting age, and protect citizens from frivolous lawsuits.

Mr. Coon garnered all-party support for his proposal to create a code of conduct for MLAs. His bill to amend the Education Act to ensure public school students learn about historical and contemporary relationships with First Nations was adopted unanimously on his second attempt. He was also successful in having the Legislative Assembly officially recognize both Truth & Reconciliation Day and Emancipation Day in New Brunswick.

To ensure he effectively represents their concerns, Mr. Coon established a seniors’ round table in his riding. He holds community meetings in each of the neighborhoods in his riding to stay up to date on issues in his constituency.

Before he became involved in politics, Mr. Coon earned a science degree at McGill University and had a 32-year career as an environmental advocate – most of it at the Conservation Council of New Brunswick. His work to protect drinking water led to the creation of New Brunswick’s Clean Water Act. His work in advancing public policy on climate change earned him a silver medallion at the Canadian Environmental Achievement Awards.

Mr. Coon and his wife, Janice Harvey, have two daughters and live in Fredericton’s Skyline Acres neighborhood.

Constituency Office

Mainline Phone (506) 455-0936
Address 346 Queen Street, Suite 102
Fredericton
E3B 1B2
Hours of Operation
  • Monday 9 a.m. - 12 p.m., 1 p.m. - 5 p.m.
  • Tuesday 9 a.m. - 12 p.m., 1 p.m. - 3 p.m.
  • Wednesday 9 a.m. - 12 p.m., 1 p.m. - 3 p.m.
  • Thursday 9 a.m. - 12 p.m., 1 p.m. - 3 p.m.
  • Friday 9 a.m. - 12 p.m.

Committee

Alexandre Cédric Doucet was elected on October 21, 2024, to represent the riding of Moncton East in the 61st legislature.

The father of two children, Jacob and Florence, he is married to Pascale Rioux-Doucet.

He graduated from École secondaire Népisiguit and holds a bachelor’s degree in political science and a Juris Doctor from the Université de Moncton. During his studies, he had the opportunity to sit on the executive council, as president, of the Fédération étudiante du Campus universitaire de Moncton (FÉCUM) for three years. In addition, he sat on the board of the Université de Moncton.

He is a lawyer by profession. He is also the owner of his own law firm. He practises constitutional law, language law, property law, labour law, municipal law, and administrative law.

He is very involved in the community and was president of the Société de l’Acadie du Nouveau-Brunswick (SANB) for nearly four years. He has sat on the boards of directors of several organizations, including CAFi, the Coalition for Pay Equity, the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada (FCFA), and the Société nationale de l’Acadie (SNA).

As a result of his involvement, he was recognized as one of the most influential Francophones in the province by Acadie Nouvelle in 2020 and 2021.

Constituency Office

Mainline Phone (506) 227-3696
Address 3 Cross Street, Office B
Moncton
E1A 3C3

Committee

 

Two people sitting at a desk

 

https://www.ourcommons.ca/documentviewer/en/44-1/LANG/meeting-32/evidence 

 

 House of Commons Emblem

Standing Committee on Official Languages


NUMBER 032 
l
1st SESSION 
l
44th PARLIAMENT 

EVIDENCE

Tuesday, October 4, 2022

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

(1105)

[Translation]

    Welcome to meeting number 32 of the House Standing Committee on Official Languages.
    Today's meeting is being conducted in a hybrid format, in accordance with the House order of Thursday, June 23, 2022. Members may participate in person or remotely using the Zoom application.
    Today, we have convened a single panel, with whom we will spend an hour and a half. After that, we will meet for 30 minutes in camera to discuss committee business.
    To ensure that the meeting runs smoothly, I would like to provide some guidelines to witnesses and members.
    Before you speak, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are participating via video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your microphone. Otherwise, leave your microphone muted when you are not speaking.
    For interpretation, participants attending through Zoom have a choice of floor, English or French audio. The icon is at the bottom of their screen. People in the room can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.
    I would like to remind everyone that all comments from members and witnesses should be directed to the chair. Members present in the room are asked to raise their hand if they wish to speak. Those using Zoom are asked to use the raised hand icon. The committee clerk and I will do the best we can to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members. We thank you for your patience and understanding in this regard.
    I would like to inform the committee members that, in accordance with our housekeeping motion, all witnesses have completed the required connection tests in advance of the meeting.
    I would now like to welcome our witnesses.
    By video conference, we have the Acadian Society of Nouveau-Brunswick, represented by its president, Mr. Alexandre Cédric Doucet, and its executive director, Mr. Ali Chaisson.

[English]

We have the India Canada Organization, represented here by Mr. Deepak Awasti.

[Translation]

    We also have with us the Réseau pour le développement de l'alphabétisme et des compétences, represented by its President, Ms. Mona Audet, and its Executive Director, Mr. Denis Desgagné.
    Before we begin the first round of questions, each organization will have five minutes for their opening remarks. They can split their time among their representatives if they wish, but they each have a maximum of five minutes. They can always add to their remarks after, as they answer questions. I will signal to them about 30 seconds before their time is up.
    We begin with the Acadian Society of Nouveau-Brunswick.
    Mr. Doucet, you have five minutes.
    Dear Committee members, listeners, good morning. Thank you for inviting me to appear before this committee on the impending modernization of Canada's Official Languages Act, or OLA.
    The modernization of the OLA has been eagerly awaited for several years. This is particularly important in the case of francophone minority communities. Indeed, for them, the OLA provides not only a guarantee of public services and a real opportunity to participate in Canadian public affairs, but also a status and recognition of their place in the political and social system.
    The situation of Acadians is also exceptional, if only because the vast majority of them live in New Brunswick, the only officially bilingual province in Canada. The Acadian Society of New Brunswick is very supportive of the bill that has been tabled by the federal government and would not want to see its passage delayed in any way because of multiple proposed amendments. In our view, the Bill does not need to be significantly reworked because it pragmatically addresses all of the important elements that have been brought to the government's attention through numerous discussions in House of Commons and Senate committees and through public consultations in all regions of Canada.
     As has been pointed out on several occasions, including by the Commissioner of Official Languages, the greatest challenges at the national level are not due to significant deficiencies in the Official Languages Act, but to institutional problems of implementation. We now have a bill that will really advance the cause of bilingualism in Canada. It just needs to be supported by equally progressive regulations to ensure its implementation.
    However, our purpose today is to identify the few issues that still require the attention of Parliament and the government and to make some suggestions for addressing them. Some of the issues relate to the fact that no special status is granted to New Brunswick by virtue of it being a bilingual province and having its own Official Languages Act, which guarantees the provision of public services to all residents in all regions, not just where there is evidence of significant or sufficient demand.
    As in the case of New Brunswick, the federal system should not, in our view, provide services in the French language that are inferior to those provided by the New Brunswick government. We suggest, therefore, to clarify this in the act through an amendment. It could also be done through a regulation.
    With respect to immigration, it is not enough to just state the importance of francophone immigration for the development of francophone minorities. Francophone immigration must be significant enough to ensure that the demographic weight of the francophone minority is sufficient to ensure its sustainability. In our opinion, the act must state clearly that regulatory authority will be granted to establish standards ensuring that a balance is maintained.
    With respect to public services, a specific provision should be added for New Brunswick in which the Government of Canada would go beyond the general standard and provide for access to federal services in both official languages throughout New Brunswick. Of course, if services are provided in both official languages, it should also be recognized that the conditions needed to allow French to be used in the workplace generally exist.
    In the justice system, we would like to emphasize the importance of recognizing the right to be heard on appeal in French when the trial court has heard the case in that language.
    Finally, with respect to the law on the use of French within private enterprises under federal jurisdiction, we would like to propose, as in the case of public services, that the law be enforced throughout New Brunswick, and not only in regions said to have a strong francophone presence. Our intention is to ensure that New Brunswick's bilingual status is recognized in the private domain as well as the public domain.
    That said, I reiterate that we must act now and that this important bill must be passed as soon as possible.
    Thank you for your time and for this opportunity to speak before your committee. I am now available to answer any questions you may have.
(1110)
    Thank you, Mr. Doucet

[English]

     Now we will hear from the India Canada Organization.
    Mr. Awasti, the floor is yours for five minutes.
    Essentially, I am here not to bury Caesar but to praise him.
    And who is Caesar? Caesar is the two founding nations thesis. Caesar is the effect of the two founding nations thesis, namely official bilingualism.
    Official bilingualism and the two founding nations thesis are our founding principles, but in light of demographic change in our society over the past 40, 50, 60 years, we are now coming to a point where in fact diversity and greater diversity is challenging the two founding nations thesis. No longer, for example, in Montreal, Toronto or Vancouver are the old English and French language nations dominant. They are no longer dominant. They are no longer the host societies. They are no longer the societies that actually integrate people into Canadian society.
    I do believe that what we should be talking about now is not official languages or official culture or official communities, because that is exclusionary. That is against the idea of greater accessibility and greater justice. What we should be talking about now is distinguishing between the language of officialdom versus the public language and the public need.
    And what is the public need?
    The public interest is far greater than just the interests of the English and French nations of Canada. We need greater access to services in languages other than English and French because people who come here or people who are raised here might not in fact be fluent or have mastered one of the official languages.
    Our public institutions are obliged to ensure that these people can in fact have access to these services. The francophone community argues for the same thing for its nation. Other nations also deserve the same accessibility and the same equality. We don't get that, and I do believe that the reforms that are being proposed to the Official Languages Act are in fact contrary to the idea of administrative justice. They are contrary to the idea of greater accessibility. Again, with respect to indigenous languages, we have not integrated the Indigenous Languages Act into the Official Languages Act. We have not given proper place to various nations and various needs.
    As I said before, the official languages or official culture is very narrow. It is exclusionary. It limits accessibility to our public institutions. We have to talk about the public need and the public voice, which is large and expansive and diverse, and our public institutions must actually serve those needs locally. It means saying that if you need services in a language other than English or French, we will try to offer you those services. If you need services to integrate into our economy, we'll do that for you.
    Right now we're not doing that. Our institutions are not supporting multiculturalism, multilingualism; they are continuing to support this old idea of official languages and official bilingualism. It's no longer working, so I would call upon the government again to distinguish between the language of officialdom, which is internal, the internal expression of government, versus the public language and what the public need is and how the government communicates with the public. Those are very different ideas. Let's not stay stuck with this idea that we are a society founded by two founding nations. We're not. We're no longer there any more. That happened 150 to 200 years ago. We're no longer there, and I think we should reflect that in our legislation.
    Thank you very much.
(1115)
    Thank you, Mr. Awasti. That was four minutes 20 seconds.

[Translation]

    Let's move on to the folks from the Réseau pour le développement de l'alphabétisme et des compétences.
    I don't know which of the two will be speaking, but you have five minutes, as well.
    Mr. Chair, ladies and gentlemen of the Committee on Official Languages, thank you for having us. We're here today to talk about Bill C‑13.
    We're right at the cusp of a historic turning point for linguistic duality in Canada. The members of the Réseau pour le développement de l'alphabétisme et des compétences, or RESDAC, are glad to be able to be a part of it.
    You've received our brief. Essentially, we're proposing to amend subsection 41(3) that the bill seeks to add to the Official Languages Act. The provision sets out the federal government's commitment to:
    
—advancing opportunities for members of English and French linguistic minority communities to pursue quality learning in their own language throughout their lives, including from early childhood to postsecondary education.
    We agree with that.
    The current wording seems to refer to the education continuum, specifically the institutions that provide training as well as official acknowledgement by issuing certificates and diplomas. Beyond that formal context, however, there is a sector that provides non-formal learning opportunities and structured activities that aren't necessarily officially acknowledged through certificates and diplomas. Non-formal learning is integrated into planned activities that aren't clearly identified as learning activities. People can sign up just as they would in college or university. Non-formal learning is important.
    Just think of the leadership training that francophonie organizations provide to our youth. Think of the training sessions provided by the Association canadienne d'éducation de langue française, or ACELF, to identity-building teachers. Think of the training opportunities organizations provide their employees. Think of the French literacy or francization training activities provided by members of our network. Think of the thousands of training sessions on digital platforms such as Coursera and YouTube. Roughly a billion people use YouTube and other digital platforms. Think of the digital technology training sessions provided to teachers, learners, seniors and professionals. Many professionals had to undergo technology training because of the pandemic.
    We could also talk about a whole range of informal activities, such as reading, meetings, observations and practices, all of which are avenues of learning, although not officially recognized. They're the daily activities related to work, family and leisure.
    Allow me to explain why these distinctions are important. Internationally, organizations like UNESCO advocate for the right to education for all, including learning in institutional settings, corporate settings, community organizations, digital platforms, and many more. In today's world, lifelong learning is critical. We're all learners.
    Within Canada, serious consideration, led by the Royal Bank of Canada, the Conference Board of Canada, the Council of Ministers of Education, or CMEC, and the federal government, has led to the conclusion that skills development needs to be supported. Canada supports skills development in order to multiply its means of success.
    Our own network, RESDAC, that works in adult education, literacy and family literacy, is often called upon to support adults in need of skills development in order to fulfill their family, professional, civic and community obligations. In the Canadian francophonie, we've long relied on the education continuum, and today, we're proud to witness the emerging consensus around the need to expand the lifelong learning continuum, which occurs in formal, non-formal and informal settings alike.
    As you can see, we have an opportunity to have today's reality reflected in this bill; let's not pass it up. We're hoping for your support. The bill illustrates that we have a decent understanding of how to support learning institutions in a formal setting: funding envelopes are created. As far as non-formal settings are involved, we also need to ensure that organizations are available to meet people's training needs, as they relate to francophone minority communities in particular, so they can develop the skills they need to succeed. We can't simply be content with translating everything from English to French.
(1120)
    Ms. Audet, you have 10 seconds left.
    We're asking the federal government to commit to advancing opportunities for members of English and French linguistic minority communities to pursue quality learning, in formal, non-formal and informal settings, in their own language, throughout their lives, from early childhood to post-secondary education. Those three words are very important for Canadians.
    Thank you, Ms. Audet.
    Let's start with a first round of questions. Members from each political party will have six minutes each.
    We'll begin with Mr. Godin, first vice-chair of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.
    Mr. Godin, you have six minutes.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Thank you to the witnesses for joining us today, in person or virtually.
    My first questions are for the Acadian Society of New Brunswick.
    I want to express my disagreement with Mr. Doucet about the need to pass the bill quickly and about the bill being satisfactory. We'll be looking for things to improve in the bill this fall, because this will be the law of the land for the next 50 years. We have the same goals, Mr. Doucet, but we're taking different roads to reach them.
    Your organization has stated in the past that, in recognition of its particular status, New Brunswick should be exempt from the standard that is “significant demand” for services, which determines where the federal government has to provide bilingual services under the Official Languages Act.
    Bill C‑13 maintains the “significant demand” standard.
    Am I wrong?
    As I mentioned in my presentation, according to the legal advice we've received, we sincerely believe that such corrections can be made through regulation.
    So you're saying it isn't necessary to include official regulations in Bill C‑13.
    Those in charge may be acting in good faith now, but if we think of the legislation's impacts over the next 50 years, I think it's important that we spell things out in the bill.
    I gather, however, that you'd be satisfied with regulations. Is that right?
    I would hope that, if the federal government has the political will to modernize the act, it'll also have the political will to implement it through regulation, for example. We'll also have to see what's in the action plan for official languages.
(1125)
    The Commissioner of Official Languages believes that the obligations under part IV of the act remain unclear.
    In your opinion, should the obligation relating to active offer of services be clarified, as the commissioner has called for?
    As I've just said, I believe this can easily be addressed through regulation. There should be a provision specifying New Brunswick's linguistic specificity, in terms of “significant demand” not applying to New Brunswick.
    You just mentioned that this can be addressed through regulation, but I'm talking about the commissioner's recommendation to clarify the obligation relating to active offer.
    I'm not the official languages commissioner. Mr. Théberge should be the one to answer that question.
    I'm sure you understand, Mr. Doucet, that we're all working together to improve this legislation.
    The commissioner spends his days protecting both official languages. I think we can all heed his recommendations.
    I understand that you're not the official languages commissioner, but the commissioner makes recommendations for us. You seem evasive in your position, however. That's my interpretation.
    I understand completely. I'll try to be clearer.
    We all get different advice from experts in constitutional law and language rights. The advice we've received clearly indicates that the current flaws in Bill C‑13 can be addressed through regulation.
    The FCFA suggested an amendment that would add language clauses and consultations in order to fix the accountability issues around provincial transfers. Mr. Michel Doucet has stated that he supports the amendment.
    Do you?
    Absolutely.
    We're a part of the FCFA. That said, this isn't a priority for the Acadian Society of New Brunswick at the moment.
    I understand that you're a part of the FCFA, but the federation has made several recommendations. You, on the other hand, have stated right from the outset that you're satisfied with the bill and that you'd like it to pass quickly. There's some inconsistencies in your position.
    My initial position remains unchanged. We believe that Bill C‑13 represents a real step forward for institutional bilingualism in Canada. If the bill were to be adopted tomorrow, for instance, I believe it would allow us to make headway. Besides, the bill's implementation would require a lot of work.
    I understand that the bill could allow us to make headway, but as legislators, we want to ensure the legislation remains appropriate over the long term. I'm not satisfied to quickly review the bill for the sake of expediency. I want to be thorough.
    Don't you think that we should actively follow up on these specific recommendations so that, in the future, if the provisions of the Official Languages Act were to be strengthened, we might stop the decline of the French language, in New Brunswick and elsewhere?
    It all comes down to the political will to implement the legislation. Even if we have the best possible wording, we won't make any progress without political will.
    That's precisely why we need a bill that has teeth and why we need to take our time. Sure, we need to act fast to prevent the decline of French, but we also need to take clear and precise measures and not rely on the goodwill of those in power to make recommendations.
    You have 15 seconds left, Mr. Godin.
    Thank you, Mr. Doucet.
    Ms. Arielle Kayabaga will now have six minutes to ask questions.
    You have the floor, Ms. Kayabaga.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    I'd like to start by thanking the witnesses that are here today to help us move forward this very important piece of legislation for communities like mine. I'm a Franco-Ontarian from London, Ontario, where we're a minority francophone community, which is why it's very important to listen to what you have to say on the issue.
    I'll start with you, Mr. Doucet. Someone mentioned earlier that the Official Languages Act wouldn't be reviewed for another 50 years. Bill C‑13 clearly specifies, however, that the bill can be reviewed every 10 years.
    Could you tell us what it means for you to hear that the act can be reviewed every 10 years? What are the impacts this can have on your community?
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    We're very much in favour of the proposed amendment that would force the government to do a legislative review every 10 years. In fact, this is modelled on New Brunswick's legislative model. Obviously we're happy with this because the government will be forced to start a process every 10 years. It also allows for some predictability.
    I should add that, even if the bill says 10 years, nothing would prevent the federal government from modernizing the act in four or five years. The provision would force the government to launch a review process within 10 years.
    I think we all agree that we want a law that will support every francophone in Canada. We also want francophone communities to continue to grow all across Canada, not only in Quebec.
    You mentioned earlier the urgent need to pass this bill. Could you elaborate on the urgent need to pass the bill? In other words, what are the issues that have brought you to take that position, as a member of a francophone minority community?
    As you must know, the 2021 census shows that the decline of French is proportionately greater in New Brunswick. Compared to the rest of Canada, New Brunswick has experienced the greatest decline in French.
    The last time the act was modernized, I wasn't even born. The act's implementation took more than six years. I don't think that the federal government of a bilingual state can afford to wait any longer to modernize the act.
    Our organization's stakeholders work very hard, as they do in every organization. They've invested a lot of money, time and resources into this bill since 2016.
    I wouldn't go so far as to say we're impatient, but let's say we're very eager to start implementing this legislation.
    Bill C‑13 provides for the government of Canada's commitment to advancing opportunities for members of English and French linguistic minority communities to pursue quality learning in their own language, throughout their lives, from early childhood to post-secondary education.
    How will this provision improve the learning experience of francophone students in minority language communities?
    Ms. Audet, you may answer the question as well, if you wish.
    It'll be a pleasure.
    Formal education refers to universities, including the new university in Ontario.
    The issue we're hoping emphasize in these proceedings is that of non-formal or informal learning, which involves the skills and abilities acquired in settings other than colleges and universities. The NCF tool, for instance, allows people to discover who they are, what their strengths and skills are, etc.
    Organizations such as ours that work in the field of community employment could recognize on a case‑by‑case basis the skills and knowledge of those people looking for work by attaching digital badges and certificates to their work applications. This adds a great deal of value to the applications, in the eyes of the employers. People can claim to have skills in certain areas, but having the supporting certificates would simplify things for employers.
    The same goes for colleges and universities. Imagine a young person that graduated from high school and took a number of courses with various organizations. If they can show evidence of this, then gaining admission to a college or university should be easier.
    I hope my explanations were clear.
    Yes.
    In your opinion, what role can the provincial and territorial governments play in furtherance of this objective?
    We understand that there are agreements with the provinces and territories. I believe there should be language clauses that would allow each province and territory to interact with its francophone communities and determine their specific needs. That isn't happening at the current time, so I think we should take closer look at these language clauses.
    The federal government could also work in collaboration with francophone communities. Our organization makes reports for financial backers. There should be some accountability to the federal government under certain language clauses.
    Have I adequately answered your question?
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    You have roughly 10 seconds left.
    Okay.
    What would you consider to be positive results?
    Are you talking about positive measures?
    That's all the time you have. I'm sorry, but you'll have the opportunity to return to the question later.
    Mr. Mario Beaulieu, second vice-chair of the committee, now has six minutes to ask the next series of questions.
    Good day. Thank you to the witnesses for being here.
    Mr. Doucet, you mentioned the political will of the federal government, the same government that appointed a lieutenant governor to New Brunswick that doesn't speak French, a move that was challenged in court. We have many such examples, including instances of non-compliance with the Official Languages Act.
    Do you still believe we ought to trust the government, not include the desired changes in the act and wait for regulatory changes to occur instead?
    I'm not here to talk about politics. The proposed legislative framework certainly features important and worthwhile advances. We wouldn't hesitate to implement the provisions of the bill tomorrow morning if it were to pass in its current form.
    On the issue of the lieutenant governor, the case will be heard by the court of appeal in 2023. We will have the opportunity to address the issue in due course.
    I believe everyone here has a strong desire to support francophones outside Quebec, and I believe that Bill C‑13 is a real opportunity to move things forward and reinforce the act.
    You can think on it, but as the saying goes, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I think there are situations where it's better to incorporate the desired changes in the act itself. You mentioned, for instance, the notion of “significant demand”, which goes back to the old principle of “where numbers warrant”. Wouldn't it be advisable to incorporate certain provisions in the act now to ensure the desired changes will occur?
    It is indeed possible to include provisions in the act. However, legal experts have advised us that we can achieve the same aims through regulation, whether on this particular issue or on that of federally regulated businesses.
    What you're saying, essentially, is that you have no requests with regards to Bill C‑13. Do I have that right?
    We currently have no specific requests since we'll be able to address these issues through regulation.
    Do you think that Bill C‑13 has the necessary provisions to reverse the assimilation rate in New Brunswick as well as the decline of French?
    The fact remains that an act is just an act. They're just words on paper. Whether there is the political will to implement it is another question. Nevertheless, Bill C‑13 provides for some very worthwhile mechanisms that may have an impact on the ground in New Brunswick.
    You spoke of francophone immigration to New Brunswick and of setting related targets through regulation. What would these targets be?
    The objectives should be set through regulation; you'll understand our position on the subject, Mr. Beaulieu.
    New Brunswick is the only province other than Quebec that has linguistic specificity. Our position on immigration has always been very clear. It's not just a question of targets or standards, it's also a question of autonomy.
    We believe the government of New Brunswick should have greater autonomy to choose its immigrants, which would allow it to restore balance in the demographic weights of its two official language communities. That would be an excellent way to combat the decline of French in New Brunswick.
    My next question is for the Réseau pour le développement de l'alphabétisme et des compétences.
    You spoke at length about non-formal learning and about how it can improve literacy. I'm trying to imagine how that might be structured. How would we go about assessing these kinds of learning, in practical terms? Are you thinking of informal training sessions with tailored exams?
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    It is certain that the Réseau has done some work and has come up with something that is really well thought out. We're going to have to develop ways of thinking, as well as tools for evaluating skills that can be discovered in non-formal and informal training, such as reading.
    Certainly, the Réseau will set up evaluations, for which the centre of expertise that we want to establish will be responsible. Our aim is to be able to correctly assess, but above all to target, what people learn in a given context. The issue of non-formal, formal and informal learning concerns all the community organizations that offer non-formal learning, such as institutions, legal organizations or organizations that support women, for example.
    The Réseau could have decided to talk only about literacy, but we decided to show that non-formal learning was more important for the citizens of Canada. That's what we based ourselves on, and we really want to recognize all the non-formal training of citizens.
    Thank you very much, Ms. Audet and Mr. Beaulieu.
    We'll move on to the next round of questions.
    Ms. Ashton, you have six minutes.
    Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
    Thank you to all the witnesses who are here today.
     We would like to see this study of Bill C‑13 move forward as quickly as possible. However, we feel that this is a historic moment and that we must not miss this opportunity to improve the bill for the benefit of all communities in the country. We hope that the government will accept the main amendments that we have been proposing for months, to finally improve the lives of communities on the ground.
     Ms. Audet, we have often talked about the importance of protecting the education continuum, from early childhood to post-secondary education. In my opinion, the observation you made is relevant: this education must also include adult education. This is something that the committee has acknowledged, but that the act does not yet recognize.
    You propose to remedy this situation with a fairly simple but important amendment. Can you further explain the importance of using the language you suggest, rather than the language recommended by the committee in 2018, which emphasizes the integration of the education continuum?
    When we talk about learning from early childhood to post-secondary education, we always forget about non-formal and informal training, which nevertheless helps complete the education continuum.
     We are part of the Table nationale sur l'éducation with various partners, such as the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne and various organizations representing schools and universities. We looked at this area of learning and came to a consensus: we need to change today's education so that it will be more inclusive in the future. We need to think about our grandchildren.
    For example, it should be recognized that during judo training, children acquire skills and knowledge that will serve them throughout their lives. We therefore propose that the three types of training—formal, informal and non-formal—are an integral part of learning in Canada. This is being done elsewhere. South Africa, New Zealand, UNESCO and the OECD, among others, have already considered this principle, as has the Council of Ministers of Education.
    In conclusion, we want lifelong learning to become an integral part of learning for all citizens.
    I hope that I have answered the question correctly, but my colleague Mr. Desgagné could certainly give you a better answer, since he sits on the Table nationale sur l'éducation.
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    That won't be necessary. I think your message was clear. Thank you.
    Mr. Doucet, we know how important the issue of immigration is. Yet Bill C‑13 does not contain targets for catching up demographically, an issue that we know is important for francophone minority communities.
    You have pointed out in the past that the 4.4% target for francophone immigration from outside Quebec would be detrimental to New Brunswick if it were applied consistently. However, we know that even this target has never been met. We believe that Bill C‑13 does not go far enough and that it must contain a demographic catch‑up clause.
    Do you agree with that and do you believe that these province-specific details should also be included in the Official Languages Act?
    I have a mandate to speak on behalf of the Acadian and francophone community. I can tell you that Bill C‑13 may not go far enough in this regard, generally speaking.
     As you may know, immigration is a shared jurisdiction under section 95 of the Constitution Act, 1867. In the late 1970s, Quebec signed an agreement with the federal government to have greater powers in immigration, and we believe that New Brunswick should sign a similar agreement.
    For the Acadians of New Brunswick, the issue of immigration is somewhat beyond the scope of Bill C‑13, as we believe it is incumbent upon the province of New Brunswick to play a greater role in federal-provincial negotiations.
    Thank you, Mr. Doucet.
    Mr. Chaisson, do you think we should amend the act to give more power to Treasury Board to really manage the implementation of the act and to protect and promote the rights of francophones across the country?
    I find that my opinion on this provision remains constant: I am ambivalent about who should ultimately be responsible. As well, I think there has been a long-standing lack of imagination. I don't think it's necessarily the way the law is written that prevents people from doing things differently.
    Thank you.
    We will now proceed to another round of questions.
    Mr. Gourde, you have the floor for five minutes.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
     I also thank the witnesses for being here.
    Mr. Doucet, the Commissioner of Official Languages insists on the importance of a central agency. Could you clarify your position on this issue?
    From a legislative standpoint, this is probably the best proposal there is at this time.
    I myself am not a public administration expert. However, when we consult such experts, particularly those who have previously worked for the Treasury Board, they say that this organization does not really deal with these issues and that it is more like a soccer goalie when it comes to programs.
    Thank you, Mr. Doucet.
    Ms. Audet, Quebec is asking that we amend Bill C‑13 to recognize its specificity. Indeed, the linguistic context in Quebec is particular, because the province is francophone.
    Are you in favour of such an amendment?
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     Mr. Desgagné, I would ask for your help to answer that question.
    RESDAC works with the FCFA and Quebec on these issues. We really specialize in the Canadian francophonie. We have a vested interest in the francophonie in Quebec, in its vitality.
    I think that Quebeckers are in the best position to talk about their destiny, and it is in our interest to be associated with them. We have been involved in the whole process undertaken by the FCFA over the last five or six years. So we are fully supportive of the FCFA's positions.
    Can you tell me about the francophone immigration targets that the government has put in place outside Quebec and in Quebec?
     What help can you provide in that regard?
    When immigrants arrive in Canada, they may not speak English or French. An integration process is necessary. It might be beneficial for Quebec to get help.
    I absolutely agree with that.
     RESDAC works in the immigration network. As our president mentioned, we work in the field of skills. We try to collaborate with Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, or IRCC, given our areas of expertise. Ms. Audet works directly with several newcomers to Manitoba. I could give you many examples of that.
     Again, the FCFA has done its work and RESDAC has been involved in immigration initiatives. We need to play catch‑up, we need to review the targets, and we really need to be able to achieve our goals together. It certainly is a collaborative effort. We are part of this process and we have an important role to play in terms of skills to ensure our success.
    There is a unique situation in Canada right now. There is a major labour shortage in Quebec. There are 250,000 jobs available and they are good jobs. However, English Canada seems to shun Quebec. Yet, Quebec has made a lot of effort to recruit people from the new generation of 40 and under. Many citizens from other provinces speak French. They are francophiles, not francophones. It was quite an experience for them, because the unemployment rate is much higher in the western provinces than in Quebec.
     We would be willing to recruit English-speaking Canadians to come and work in Quebec. The search for labour is going on all over the world. It seems to me that there would be a small effort to make in this area.
    Mr. Gourde, you have one minute left.
    I will answer very quickly.
    The labour shortage has taken hold throughout Canada. The Canadian francophonie is also suffering from these shortages. We may be shunned by our provinces. If there were language clauses that would make this fine mechanism work, the Canadian francophonie could work with its governments to welcome people. We often welcome immigrants who arrive in Quebec and then move to our regions. In one way or another, our destiny is linked, Mr. Gourde.
    Thank you very much.
    Thank you, Mr. Gourde.
    Mr. Drouin, you have the floor for five minutes.
    Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
    I want to thank all the witnesses who are with us today.
    Mr. Doucet, you said that we need to ensure that the act protects French-language services in New Brunswick to the same extent as the province of New Brunswick's own official languages act.
    What amendment would be necessary to ensure this protection?
    A grandfather clause should be inserted in the act to ensure an exception in New Brunswick, that is, where there is sufficient demand for services in French. You have to understand that, according to the criteria currently set out in the act, the only places where there is sufficient demand are in the northern part of the province and in a few regions where francophone communities are in a minority situation.
     I will just give you an example.
    In the Saint John region, Acadians form a very small minority. Proportionally, there are more Acadians in Saint John than in Caraquet, in the north of the province. However, French language services and communications are not available everywhere in the Saint John area.
    To halt the decline of French, it is important to harmonize with the act the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which recognizes the linguistic specificity of New Brunswick.
    We also believe that it is possible to solve this problem by adding regulations.
    The act must reflect the current reality of families and people who want to live in different places. As a Franco-Ontarian, I can tell you that all Franco-Ontarians used to live in eastern Ottawa. Now they are scattered all over the city, which is problematic for service providers. I somewhat understand what you mean. Obviously, we're going to have to address that.
     Ms. Audet, you talked about—and I think my colleagues did as well—training, informal learning and certificates to recognize them.
     In terms of certificates, are the skills recognized by the provinces or by the service providers?
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     I wanted to say earlier that this is part of the work that RESDAC does. However, RESDAC is going to work with its education partners to do compliant assessments. Indeed, we want to make sure that our evaluations of the knowledge acquired by these people during non-formal and informal training are good.
     We will work with researchers, adult educators and teachers. We want to make sure that the skills and knowledge that people have acquired in order to obtain a diploma, a certification or a digital badge are very well highlighted.
     I often work with the employment service, at the local level, and I see that skills recognition matters to employers. However, employers also need to know that it is a recognition and that you are doing all you can to make them aware of it.
    I absolutely agree with that.
     You have to work with the employers, because they're the ones who hire people. In Manitoba, as well as across Canada, no one is doing prior learning assessment. We see doctors, pediatricians, dentists, and other people with great skills, which are not, however, recognized by professional bodies. These people take the positions they are able to get. This is a loss, a waste of knowledge for Canada.
     We need doctors, nurses, teachers and pediatricians. We need these people, especially in the health sector. So we need to recognize prior learning.
    I love everything you say. You're singing the song that I love to sing. However, how do we relate this to Bill C‑13?
    What amendments could we make to include what you're talking about?
    Mr. Drouin, if the Government of Canada recognized both informal and formal training, we would all benefit, whether it's your constituents, my children, my grandchildren, or citizens across Canada.
    There are credentials for formal training, but now we need to ensure that non-formal and informal training opens up opportunities. Not everybody will get a degree, but the people who do get one will be able to use it. No matter what the field is, they will get recognition.
    At the moment, this kind of training is not recognized. That's why we're asking that it be included in the act.
    Thank you very much, Ms. Audet and Mr. Drouin.
    I will now give the floor to Mr. Beaulieu for two and a half minutes.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
     Ms. Audet, according to what you are saying, the people who provide informal and non-formal training do not necessarily have diplomas. Their knowledge is not necessarily recognized.
    Under these conditions, how can we choose competent people?
    I'm not sure I understood the question. My device didn't work.
    According to what you said earlier, the skills of people who offer informal and non-formal training are not necessarily recognized.
    Is that correct?
    No, I was saying that the skills of people who take training courses are not recognized. However, literacy trainers are often retired teachers. They help us give literacy courses. This includes digital and technological literacy, and so on. They are good trainers.
     One of our partners in Ontario is setting up a program with a university to provide courses for literacy trainers and some prior learning assessment.
    At Pluri-elles, in Manitoba, I'm fortunate to have retired teachers working for me. They are willing to do this work for a small salary, because they really believe in the development of their community and the people who live there.
    I would like to clarify that I was talking earlier about the recognition of prior learning for people who are going to take the training. Perhaps I misspoke.
    I wanted to clarify that point. Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu, for allowing me to do so.
     People must have this recognition. In my experience, we sometimes try to promote francization programs, but they become literacy programs. I worked in an organization where we provided recognition to the people we were training, but it was not official.
    In the context of the Official Languages Act, as amended, what you want is that by recognizing the importance of the formal, non-formal and informal context, the government can financially support your organization or others to develop services.
    Is that correct?
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    You have to accept that people get recognition. I don't think we're talking about funding right now.
    Thank you very much, Mr. Beaulieu.
    Ms. Ashton, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
    Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
    Ms. Audet, I'd like to ask you a question about the work that you and your organization do. I want to go back to statistics released this summer, which say that the number of people who speak French at home is declining across Canada.
    Can you tell us about that? Can your team members tell us about the challenges you face in this context?
    As a committee, we need to know what challenges you're facing so we can support you.
    If I may, I'm going to talk about Manitoba. We're from the same province, Ms. Ashton.
    French is indeed declining. If we don't all work together, the French language will continue to decline. Take Manitoba, for example. The organization Pluri-elles opened 10 literacy centres throughout Manitoba. There are 12 homework centres. We're trying to help kids with learning disabilities at school so they don't end up in our classes later on.
    We receive minimal funding from the province. We don't know how much money the province gets, basically. Does Manitoba receive lots of money for francophones, literacy programs and training programs? I have no idea. We're not part of the process. They don't hold consultations. We certainly could offer more programs. Unfortunately, you know how funding works.
    What we're trying to do is help immigrants. We offer various programs to help women and immigrants learn French or improve their French. Many individuals speak French very well. However, in the case of refugees, they often don't have the opportunity to be educated in their country. For them, we have to start with basic literacy, which takes a lot more time.
    Yes, the number of francophones is declining, but I believe that if we work together we can turn things around.
    To improve the situation, we suggest including formal, non-formal and informal education in the act. That may help us target even more people. As a result, more people will be able to complete programs and enrich our beautiful French language, which is also my language.
    I hope I've answered your question to your satisfaction.
    Thank you, Ms. Audet.
    Mr. Lehoux, you have the floor for five minutes.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    I'd like to thank the witnesses for being with us today.
    Ms. Audet, the Fédération des francophones de la Colombie-Britannique fought for the language clauses.
    Do you support requests to include language clauses in the bill?
    Yes, I support them.
    So it's important to you that they really be included in the act, as amended?
    Is that correct?
    Yes, absolutely.
    I just gave an example about the federal government transferring funds to the provinces. The education people negotiate with the provinces and the federal government, but the other groups don't, to my knowledge.
    We certainly support including well-defined language clauses in the modernized act. We also want francophones to be consulted about their needs.
    I'd like to ask you a more specific question about workers.
    We know that a significant problem exists with respect to the francophonie outside Quebec, and that is a labour shortage.
    To what extent is the labour shortage also hurting French outside Quebec?
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    The labour shortage is certainly being felt everywhere. I will let Mr. Desgagné answer the question.
    How does it hurt francophones?
    The labour shortage is having a dramatic effect on the social development of communities and economic development of businesses in the francophonie.
    If we want francophone companies, we also need a workforce. That's why we work a great deal with the economic sector. We want to make sure that the skills are in place, both among newcomers, as Ms. Audet mentioned, and among those already in the workforce who need to upgrade their skills so they can apply for better jobs.
    Ms. Audet, in your opening remarks, you said that continuous learning is a necessity of life, but you didn't say anything more about it.
    I also feel that continuous learning is important. Do you have any suggestions or proposals about lifelong learning? They could be part of certain amendments to include in the bill.
    You want to talk about lifelong learning?
    Okay.
    Do you want me to propose amendments that would—
    I'm talking about amendments we could include in the bill to strengthen that.
    Including the three concepts we proposed— “formal”, “non-formal” and “informal”—in the bill would be a winner and you would be doing great things for Canadians. We also agree with the proposals from the FCFA, with which we have worked, actually.
    Would it help move things forward?
    Absolutely.
    You say that you support language clauses. Could you give us some concrete examples?
    I have several examples. Among other things, I'm thinking of Employment and Social Development Canada and the case we've all heard about involving British Columbia.
    Right now, $300 million has been invested under skills agreements. Very significant amounts are being sent directly to the provinces. Even if the francophones in the provinces take steps to try to be consulted, they make up too low a percentage of the population to be a priority.
    I could have talked about immigration, daycare...and I could go on.
    Now I'd like to come back to immigration.
    In Bill C‑13, does the section dealing with immigration need to specifically link immigration to training, targets and economic development?
    In my opinion, if you take into account the language clause targets and the amendments proposed by the FCFA and the Réseau, as well as the ones on immigration and the other aspects we're asking you to improve, the bill holds together well and it's going to have a significant impact.
    The small amendment we're proposing to include the concepts of “formal”, “non-formal” and “informal” in the bill would help create a much more holistic education continuum. As Ms. Audet mentioned, we need to work together on the continuum to get some credits recognized.
    Quebec does it very well, and so do the United States and a number of other countries. There's a methodology behind it that recognizes the continuum and the labour market.
    Thank you, Mr. Desgagné.
    Mr. Iacono, you have the floor for five minutes.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Greetings to our guests and thank you for being here this morning.
    Ms. Audet, in your brief, you suggest rewording section 41(3) of the act to include quality education in formal, non-formal and informal settings. Don't you think that government involvement to enhance informal learning opportunities might be an excessive invasion of people's privacy?
    No, I don't think so, but I'm not sure I understand what your question means. How would that constitute an invasion of privacy?
    You referred to learning in informal settings. Can you explain to us what an informal setting is?
    When I talked about the informal aspect, I was referring to people reading documents and doing research. I can read you UNESCO's definition if you like.
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    I don't need to tell you what formal education is, do I?
    According to UNESCO, non-formal education corresponds to additional, alternative knowledge to—
    I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I don't have a lot of time.
    I read that definition. That's why I'm asking what effect it could have on people's privacy in this context.
    I don't understand the question, I'm sorry.
    Mr. Desgagné, can you answer it?
    In learning situations across the education continuum, informal learning refers to what a person doing an internship as a lawyer on a study learns informally, or what a welder learns informally when working together with a colleague.
    It helps us implement strategies that are part of a process, a continuum, to help people in minority language situations acquire skills. So this learning dynamic helps us establish much more effective strategies for lifelong learning.
    Perfect.
    In a situation where unilingualism is taking over in formal and non-formal education, do you see a threat to language minority rights?
    Yes, you're absolutely right. There is a sense of threat, which the statistics prove, as my colleagues were saying.
    International studies tell us that 52% of francophones in Canada live below Level 3, the level at which people can thrive socially and economically. What's more, 80% of respondents asked to complete the survey in English.
    So the Réseau has a huge amount of work to do in that respect.
    Okay.
    In your opinion, how can the federal government counterbalance that to protect language minorities?
    I feel what we're looking to do with this amendment is to be able to build a much more synergistic continuum and work together on this lifelong learning process.
    Thank you.
    How do you perceive federal government involvement in informal education?
    We hope it will help us work on a more holistic definition of the education continuum, with as shared objectives—formal, informal and non-formal—skills that will have been defined in a framework adapted to our realities in minority language situations.
    Thank you.
    In your organization's view, what key impacts does the education continuum have on the vitality of minority language communities?
    We have such a huge amount of work to do on that. I wish I had 10 minutes to answer your question.
    We need to socially engineer this through all of our organizations. I'm thinking of the President of the Treasury Board, who comes from our communities and is sensitive to civic action.
    We also need to make it possible for francophones in minority situations to acquire the skills they need to thrive in the job market.
    You talk a lot about the difference between “formal”, “non-formal” and “informal”. Can you describe those three terms in plain language so we can better understand them?
    I'm sorry, Mr. Iacono, but your time is up.
    Mr. Beaulieu, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
    Mr. Desgagné, I will give you time to answer Mr. Iacono's question.
    We know what “formal” education is. As the president of the Réseau said, it's schooling from kindergarten to grade 12, and then college or university, in other words, learning where recognized credits are given out.
    “Non-formal” education is organized. It could be a training session that an organization or an entrepreneur organizes for their employees. As the president mentioned, it's also everything people get on YouTube, or a downloaded training session or tutorial. It's organized, in the sense that people have an appointment at a certain time for the training.
    “Informal” education happens day to day and isn't organized. It's the information you share sitting with colleagues, for example. It's what people learn from each other.
    All these are therefore organized in a continuum, and when everything comes together you get pretty amazing synergy.
    You said earlier that there was a special methodology in Quebec. Can you tell us about that?
    There are a number of approaches around the world, including bursaries, digital badges and microfinancing.
    On that front, Quebec is likely a good example. We're learning from our colleagues in Quebec what methodology to implement here. We're currently doing a pilot project with the Coalition for Adult Training in Ontario to test out the Quebec approach.
(1215)
    Does your organization have a mandate with respect to Quebec?
    We work with Quebec.
    We're learning from our colleagues and partners in Quebec.
    We also work with our partners in other countries. For example, we participated in consultations at the International Conference on Adult Education that UNESCO organized in Morocco.
    We're part of an international network, but we're connected to our neighbours from Quebec, to Canada's francophonie.
    You said earlier that 52% of francophones are functionally illiterate. Is that the case in Quebec as well?
    Quebec has a higher literacy rate than the rest of Canada's francophonie. It's an average.
    I want to make it clear that when I say Level 3, I'm talking about the level at which you can thrive in French. Some people are only at Level 2, but they are quite functional.
    Why is that?
    I feel it's the education continuum. We've worked on methodology and pedagogy for a long time, but we've rarely all worked together to define skills.
    Thank you, Mr. Desgagné and Mr. Beaulieu.
    Ms. Ashton, you have two and a half minutes.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Ms. Audet, I'd like to talk about something you mentioned that's part of the feedback I get quite often when I talk to people in francophone communities outside Quebec, including my region here in Manitoba. I'm talking about the need to build a francophone community.
    Here in Thompson, other than our French school and our French immersion school, we have no activities or opportunities for families to meet as a group in French outside school hours.
    The issue of resources often comes up. As you said, we don't know what resources come from the federal government. In addition, we receive no support in that area from our provincial government. Do you think it's important to have clarity about the resources being sent to organizations?
    I believe this also touches on the issue of language clauses in federal-provincial agreements, an amendment the FCFA has actually proposed for the bill.
    What are your thoughts on this?
    I'm trying to organize my thoughts to give you a fairly clear answer.
    When you work in the francophone communities for many years, as I have in Manitoba and Ontario, where we have partners, travelling to rural communities is as important as offering programming in the city. However, we often face a lack of resources to do that travelling. Colleges and universities can't open other branches elsewhere.
    Language classes must require that francophones' needs are met. For example, if I were going to meet with people in Manitoba, I would tell them about Thompson and all the places where school boards offer programming to support people in educational settings, whether it's the parents or the adults accompanying the kids. These individuals must receive services in French to keep promoting the French language and living in French in our communities. We have so much work to do in that respect.
    If the language clauses don't require that francophone communities' needs be taken into account, we'll miss out on many things could be done for our lovely francophonie.
    Thank you, Ms. Audet.
    This concludes the public portion of our meeting. Before I suspend the meeting, I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here.
    Should you have any more relevant information that the committee could use in its report on modernizing the act, please feel free to send it in writing to our clerk, who will forward it to all committee members.
    Thank you, everyone.
    That being said, the members attending this meeting via the Zoom application will need to disconnect from the public portion and reconnect for the portion in camera.
    The meeting is suspended.
    [Proceedings continue in camera]

 

 



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 L’Association des juristes d’expression française du Nouveau-Brunswick (« AJEFNB ») tient à accorder son appui au rapport annuel 2023-2024 du Commissariat aux langues officielles du Nouveau-BrunswickCLON-B»), déposé le 21 janvier dernier. L’AJEFNB félicite le travail du Commissariat aux langues officielles dans son rôle de promotion de l’avancement des langues officiellesainsi que dans celui d’enquête et de recommandations. Il va sans dire que les recommandations émises dans le rapport annuel du CLON-B sont pertinentes et nécessairesd’être prisesen compte. Tout comme le fait la commissaire aux langues officielles, MeShirley C. MacLean, c.r., l’AJEFNB aimerait réitérer que le processus de révision de la Loi sur les langues officiellesLLO») a été une occasion manquée en plus de marquer un recul des droits linguistiques pour la communauté linguistique minoritaire de la province. Ainsi, l’AJEFNB appui à juste titre le processus et les recommandations émises dans le rapport Finn-McLaughlinen 2021et urge le gouvernement de respecter les engagements pris lors de la dernière campagne électorale en sassurant de voir à la miseen œuvre de l’entièreté des recommandations figurant dans ce rapport. Enfin, l’AJEFNB demande au Comité permanent des langues officielles d’inviter la Commissaire aux langues officielles, MeMacLean, c.r., à titre de témoin afin que cette dernière puisse élaborer sur ses recommandations et incitelegouvernement de prendre des actions concrètes dans les plus brefs délais afin d’éviter un autre recul des droits linguistiques pour la communauté linguistique minoritaire.
 
 
 
House of Commons Emblem
NUMBER 135 
l
1st SESSION 
l
42nd PARLIAMENT 

EVIDENCE

Thursday, February 28, 2019

[Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]

(1105)

[Translation]

    Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(f), we will resume our study of the modernization of the Official Languages Act.
    This morning, we are pleased to have Benoît Pelletier, a professor at the University of Ottawa's Faculty of Law.
    Welcome back, Mr. Pelletier. You have been here before.
    We will proceed as usual.
    Mr. Foucher has just arrived.
    Mr. Foucher is also a professor at the University of Ottawa's Faculty of Law. The U of O is my alma mater. Welcome, Mr. Foucher.
    As usual, you will each have about ten minutes for your presentation, followed by questions and comments from the committee members.
    Let's start with you, Mr. Pelletier.
    I would like to thank the committee for inviting me here today to discuss an important topic, the modernization of the Official Languages Act.
    I would like to congratulate you all on your work to promote and develop Canada's linguistic duality. That brings me to my first point. I will touch on just six points, each one briefly so I don't go over my allotted time.
    The act does not mention Canada's linguistic duality. It does, of course, refer to English and French as Canada's official languages. It also talks about the development and vitality of English and French linguistic minority communities. All of that implies that Canada has a linguistic duality. However, the act does not specifically mention the concept, which, I'm told, has been losing so much ground that, as Senator Miville-Dechêne said at a recent seminar at the University of Ottawa, attitudes toward linguistic duality in federal institutions are becoming less and less friendly.
    What she said really worried seminar participants, and it made me realize how important it is for Parliament and, ultimately, the Government of Canada, to formally recognize the concept of Canadian linguistic duality. As you know, multiculturalism and bilingualism have already been recognized, and it might be time to recognize Canada's linguistic duality as well.
    My second point is international immigration. The Official Languages Act says precious little about immigration, which is absolutely crucial to the vitality and development of official language minority communities, especially francophone and Acadian communities. Their demographic weight in this country is shrinking steadily.
    It seems to me that the modernization of the act provides an opportunity to include provisions regarding immigration. However, great care must be taken not to compromise the Canada-Quebec accord relating to immigration. Lawmakers will have to be extremely careful when it comes to respecting the agreement Quebec and the federal government have in place.
    My third point is about Canada's international image. Perhaps the Commissioner of Official Languages should be mandated to ensure that Canada's institutions and representatives abroad convey an image of our country that respects the linguistic duality I referred to earlier. In other words, up to now, too little consideration has been given to Canada's international image.
    The commissioner has well-established responsibilities here in Canada. Sections 23 and 24 of the act relate to travellers and Canada's offices abroad. I am familiar with those provisions, but the commissioner's role with respect to Canada's international image should be much more clearly defined.
    I would also note that the act does not prevail in all cases. According to section 82, only some parts of the act prevail over other federal acts and regulations. In my opinion, that partial primacy should no longer be. I think all parts of the act should prevail.
(1110)
    One issue you probably did not expect me to raise is bilingualism in the Supreme Court of Canada. I am thoroughly convinced that bilingualism is possible in the Supreme Court of Canada. I am referring to section 16 of the act, which covers courts other than the Supreme Court of Canada. That means it is possible to institute bilingualism in the Supreme Court of Canada without seeking a formal constitutional amendment. Anyone who says otherwise is, I believe, mistaken. I have no compunction about raising this important subject.
    My final point relates to something you have already heard a lot about: the importance of strengthening the act, giving it teeth. At this time, the commissioner does have important powers, it's true. For one, he has the power to investigate, report and make recommendations, but he doesn't have the power to impose sanctions. I think the time has come to focus on that gap in the Official Languages Act and give the commissioner the power to impose sanctions.
    I know quite a few people interested in linguistic rights in Canada have proposed creating an administrative tribunal. I think that idea is worth exploring. I can go into more detail when it's time for questions.
    That concludes my presentation.
(1115)
    Thank you very much, Mr. Pelletier.
    I will now give the floor to Pierre Foucher.
    Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
    As the Supreme Court justices say, I concur. I could stop right there, but I will add a few remarks of my own.
    The last time I appeared before the committee, we were talking about Air Canada. Now the scope of the discussion has broadened to include the entire act and how to strengthen its application.
    As everyone knows, the act is difficult to enforce. More and more things are being allowed to slide. Just yesterday or the day before, a National Energy Board report was published in English only, which is a clear violation of the act. That should not happen. We need to find ways to make sure it doesn't happen again. The Official Languages Act is now 50 years old, and violations like that are completely unacceptable.
    That said, how can the Official Languages Act be modernized and improved? I will focus on a few points related to enforcement.
    First, I have long called for transferring responsibility for enforcing the act to the Privy Council Office. PCO is crucial to the machinery of government, and making it responsible for enforcement would be very efficient and effective. That's how it worked under Stéphane Dion. Back then, the act worked well. That would be one way to improve enforcement of the act.
    Second, and on a similar note, it might be a good idea to clarify Justice Canada's role. The act lists Treasury Board's and Canadian Heritage's responsibilities, but the Department of Justice, though an important player here, is not involved in applying the act.
    Third, a number of recent court cases have led to disappointment. In the Air Canada case, for example, the court refused to award damages. Section 77 could be clarified to give judges some ideas. For example, it can state explicitly that, where they find a party to have been in violation of the act, they can award damages if appropriate.
    Fourth, there was a lot of talk about administrative penalties during the Air Canada affair. It might be easier to sanction private entities, but the Treasury Board Secretariat can impose administrative or monetary penalties on departments too. Why not adopt a carrot-and-stick approach and make it clear to departmental officials that constant, repeated, ongoing violations of the act may affect their budgets?
    The final issue I want to talk about is an administrative tribunal. It could be useful; there are pros and cons. It would be most useful for part IV on language of service, part V on language of work, part VII on positive measures and section 91, a technical provision on linguistic designation of positions. An administrative tribunal's expertise could be very useful in these areas, and having a tribunal deal with matters would be faster and cheaper than going to Federal Court.
    There are cons, however, such as potential conflicts with other administrative tribunals that can deal with official languages. There will be legal debates over which body has the power to rule in a particular case. It distances litigants from the court if they decide to seek a judicial review in Federal Court following an administrative tribunal's decision. I don't want to get too technical, but it's important to know that when courts are conducting a judicial review of an administrative body, they tend to respect the administrative tribunal's jurisdiction and decline to intervene unless something unreasonable was done.
(1120)
    In any case, I am not alone in saying that the existence of the court challenges program, if not the details of how it operates, should be included in the act. It's important to remember the court challenges program. If an administrative tribunal were to be created, the court challenges program would have to be authorized to pay for proceedings before the administrative tribunal, not just the courts.
    Thank you. I am happy to answer your questions.
    Thank you very much, Mr. Foucher.
    We will get right into questions and comments.
    Mr. Clarke, you have the floor.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Pelletier and Mr. Foucher, I'm very happy to see you here this morning. I was the one who requested your appearance here.
    Mr. Pelletier, as I told you, I'm very happy to meet you. Many people have told me that you are an accomplished constitutional expert. I think of myself as an amateur constitutionalist. Maybe we can put that to the test.
    I would like to get right down to business. We decided to improve on the Senate's study by focusing on elements related to the tribunal and the positive measures mentioned in part VII. If I understand correctly, when the act was last amended in 2005, lawmakers wanted to make the notion of positive measures more tangible in part VII.
    Mr. Pelletier, I've been told that you are an expert on intergovernmental relations. Perhaps you are too, Mr. Foucher. I don't know.
    Here's what I'd like to ask you. Take the Université de l'Ontario français, an exceptional undertaking that, for the first time in Canada's history, would give the federal government the opportunity to implement a truly positive measure by circumventing the provincial government and funding the university directly by various means. If that were to happen, what would the consequences be?
    Similarly, if the wording of part VII were to extend beyond the realm of possibility into duty, any community could, at some point, contact the federal government, tell the government the community is dying, and call on the government to take positive measures. My question is really two questions in one.
    First, in a case like that, how could the government determine if the community is truly in danger?
    Second, if the government were to take positive measures in an area under provincial jurisdiction, what would the consequences be in terms of shared jurisdiction under the Constitution?
    I picked up on two things you said.
    The first is the division of legislative responsibilities, which both levels of government must respect, of course. In other words, Parliament cannot directly legislate in an area such as education, as in your example.
    The division of legislative responsibilities is one thing, but federal spending power is another. Although the jurisprudence has not provided a definitive answer to date, the Supreme Court of Canada has, on many occasions, shown itself to be in favour of the federal government using its spending power regardless of the division of legislative responsibilities. In other words, the Supreme Court has found that the federal government can spend money in areas under provincial jurisdiction and has never shown any sign of wanting to restrict that power.
    Some may say that such statements are merely obiter dicta, incidental expressions of the Supreme Court of Canada's opinion on federal spending power. I can tell you that in some cases, such as Chaoulli, the Supreme Court went a long way by legitimizing and affirming the Canada Health Act, which, in a way, provides guidelines for federal spending on health. Technically, therefore, Parliament can do a lot with its federal spending power, even in areas under provincial jurisdiction.
    That brings us to the political problem of Canadian intergovernmental relations. It would look very bad if the Government of Canada were to intervene directly in matters under provincial jurisdiction against the wishes of a provincial government. I cannot overemphasize how bad that would look in terms of intergovernmental relations.
    I also know that a number of provinces, including Quebec—maybe especially Quebec—are very resistant to accountability. What that means is that, when the federal government spends money to help the provinces help official language communities, Ottawa can ask for accountability. Many of the provinces take a pretty vague approach to accountability, and some are downright opposed to the idea of the federal level requiring accountability for areas under provincial jurisdiction.
(1125)
    Part VII says that the minister “may”. If it said “must” instead of “may”, you're saying that could be politically dangerous.
    Given what you've said, do you think it would be a good idea to go that far an put the work “must” in part VII?
    I don't think so.
    I have seen a number of recommendations about swapping “must” for “may” in the act. Every time I see that, I feel that it suggests a lack of political will or of will on the part of the Commissioner of Official Languages himself to fully exercise his powers.
    In the specific case you mentioned, no, I don't think it would be a good idea to replace “must” with “may”.
    Thank you very much, Mr. Clarke.
    Mr. Samson, you have the floor.
    Thank you very much, gentlemen.
    Mr. Foucher, we last saw each other a year ago, and before that, it had been quite a while.
    Mr. Pelletier, as I said earlier, I don't remember what forum I was at 10 years ago, but you were a minister in Quebec at the time and a key supporter of francophone minorities outside Quebec. That was much appreciated.
    Mr. Pelletier, I'd like to follow up on my colleague's question about jurisdiction, the shared powers you mentioned and spending power. I find that very interesting.
    Minister Duclos included a clause in the early learning and child care agreement stating that there must be spaces for francophones. This is the first time we've seen something concrete. It's not as much as we would like, but it's a start.
    You referred to Quebec, particularly in the context of immigration.
    When it comes to spending power, if I give you something, I'd like to know how you're going to spend it.
    Do you think we can add something to the act to strengthen that notion of accountability?
    What I can say is that, when it comes to agreements like the early childhood agreement, it's down to intergovernmental negotiation. The federal government can go as far as possible by including clauses that favour Canada's francophone and Acadian communities.
    It has to negotiate, obviously. There has to be an agreement with the province in question. In many cases, the Government of Canada manages to include clauses in agreements to make them stronger and more robust than previous agreements.
(1130)
    For example, for health, in addition to the bilateral agreement, we've added two new investments, and the provinces cannot use that money for anything else.
    The first investment is for mental health services, and the second is for home care. We made those investments on condition that the money be used for those purposes. The parties agreed, and that's how it's working, which is extremely good.
    Mr. Foucher, I'd like to talk about the debate around the Montfort Hospital in Ontario. The decision in that case is very interesting. The judge clearly stated that institutions are crucial to the vitality and longevity of communities. That is a very important concept. Not long ago, someone talked about how Quebec protects its institutions, but in minority communities, the institutions protect the community.
    Would you like to comment on that?
    If I may, I'd like to answer the first question you asked Mr. Pelletier.
    I'm thinking of the workforce development agreement with British Columbia, which is currently before the Federal Court of Appeal because the lower court decision was detrimental to communities.
    I see two possible responses to the situation. The first would be to clarify section 25 of the act to say that provincial governments that sign agreements act on behalf of the federal government, which makes them responsible for accountability.
    The second would be to include a provision in the act to allow communities that feel their province has violated the linguistic conditions of a federal-provincial agreement to seek recourse. The problem is that communities themselves do not sign these agreements. Either they should be included in signing the agreements—which governments may not be open to—or the act must provide a mechanism for third parties that believe provisions directly affecting them have been violated to seek recourse. That would enable communities themselves to hold provinces accountable for violations of an agreement.
    That's my answer to the first question.
    I like that idea. It would be good to have a community consultation mechanism written in to—
    —make sure their concerns are addressed in agreements without actually having them sign the agreements, which I doubt governments would accept.
    I know my time is almost up. How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?
    You have about 15 seconds.
    I have one last question.
    Mr. Pelletier, I agree on the issue of Supreme Court justices. I also think that we should include court challenges, the census, and immigration. The whole issue of real estate is essential as well, since some people across Canada do not have property or access to real estate. I know there may be a possibility in sight with British Columbia. All these issues should be included, but the question is where and how. Perhaps you could tell us some other time.
    Thank you for your comments, Mr. Samson.
    We will now hear from Mr. Choquette.
    I want to thank the witnesses for being here today.
    We also thank you for reminding us of the importance of having bilingual judges at the Supreme Court and encouraging us to change the law accordingly. The committee recently tabled a report on the matter, recommending that the current government amend the Official Languages Act or other legislation before the end of the current mandate to make it a requirement for Supreme Court justices to be bilingual. However, I don't think that is going to happen, sadly.
    I also want to say a few words about what the National Energy Board did recently. It is horrible and you are right to mention it. I have been following this translation issue since 2014, first with the Energy East pipeline project and now with the Trans Mountain project. I moved a motion in the House of Commons on the matter and I will be filing a new complaint with the Commissioner of Official Languages.
    As you said, we now have a problem with some non-compliant agencies or departments. Take the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, for example. The Commissioner of Official Languages made three recommendations to the RCMP that were so simple that my colleague Yvon Godin took it as a slap in the face. However, five or six years later, the RCMP still has not complied with these three simple recommendations, which is disrespectful to the Commissioner of Official Languages. You provided some solutions, but what can we do about agencies like the National Energy Board, which does not respect both official languages, or the RCMP, which does not respect the Commissioner of Official Languages? What can we do to improve this situation?
(1135)
    We raised the possibility of charging administrative monetary penalties. We also talked about budgetary consequences or even using an administrative tribunal. It would also be possible to have a recommendation by the commissioner registered by the Federal Court, which would be the equivalent of a ruling by that court and would make an agency in contempt of court if it failed to comply. That would be a rather drastic solution, but the option is there.
    I believe you mentioned earlier that the Privy Council Office was responsible for the Official Languages Act. Did I understand that correctly?
    That was when Stéphane Dion was President of the PCO.
    Could you elaborate?
    It did not last long.
    Why not? What changed?
    I don't know. You would have to ask the government.
    I'm old enough to remember when Stéphane Dion was President of the Privy Council. He specifically asked to be responsible for official languages and that is when we had the first official languages action plan.
    Let's not forget that the clerk of the Privy Council is in charge of all public servants. When an order comes from the Privy Council, public servants obey it. The order has much more weight if it comes from the Privy Council than if it comes from the Deputy Minister of Canadian Heritage, for example. The same goes for the Treasury Board, which has the power to approve budgets. If a department is required to ask for money from the Treasury Board, then we know that the department will meet Treasury Board requirements.
    Accordingly, if you want the administrative or bureaucratic implementation of the legislation to be more effective, I suggest you entrust that to the Privy Council Office. You'll see that the public service moves much more quickly.
    You just mentioned the Privy Council Office and the Treasury Board. What are the advantages and inconveniences of each of those agencies?
    The Treasury Board only takes care of the financial aspect. The Privy Council Office has a much broader mandate, in other words, general government policy, the operation of the machinery of government.
    I think matters surrounding the implementation of the Official Languages Act exceed simple budgetary considerations. That is why I think it would be better to give that role to the Privy Council Office.
    Mr. Pelletier, do you have anything to add?
    The Privy Council Office needs to be the central agency responsible. We agree that there are currently structural problems with the implementation of the Official Languages Act. Canadian Heritage has some responsibility, as does the Treasury Board. It would be important to have a central agency to coordinate enforcement of the entire Official Languages Act.
    I think the thing going against the Privy Council is its lack of transparency. The thing playing in its favour, however, is its weight within the public service. Both its political weight and authority have value. It has the necessary authority to oblige federal institutions and departments to better comply with the Act. The Privy Council can also have a vision for the future of the Act. It is not just about enforcing the legislation, but also having an idea of what we want to do in the years to come. In that vein, the Privy Council Office could prepare a five-year development plan.
    Reference was made to this earlier, but I want to come back to the importance of fully involving Francophone and Acadian communities in all the processes surrounding the modernization of or ad hoc changes to the Act.
(1140)
    Thank you very much, Mr. Choquette.
    We will now move on to Mr. Arseneault.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    I thank our guests for being here. It is truly a pleasure to hear their point of view.
    I would like to point out that Mr. Foucher had a successful tenure at an Acadian university, the Université de Moncton. He must be the only constitutional expert who can strum a guitar and sing Charlebois at the top of his lungs and he sure did.
    I will leave it to my colleagues to talk about the merits of having an administrative tribunal, even though I would like to discuss it, but I will focus on another topic instead.
    Mr. Pelletier, the first point you raised in your opening remarks—a point that Mr. Foucher subscribes to—was the following: the concept of linguistic duality seems to have gone quietly into the night. It is not something that seems to be talked about any more in Canada. I think that is the main reason our Official Languages Act is weak and has no teeth. This is not new and I would like you to expand on that. Why are we still discussing this today? I think we need to nip the problem in the bud and talk about it openly.
    Before we get into that, however, I would like you to explain the link between this lost concept of linguistic duality and the age old separation of legal powers between the provincial and federal governments. Many witnesses have told us that if they cannot live, breathe, sing, write, and dance in their mother tongue from early childhood and throughout their education and post-secondary education, then they will not be able to thrive and grow. My mother tongue is that of Antonine Maillet.
    How do you explain this lack of teeth in the Act or the fact that this concept of linguistic duality seems to be lost in this beautiful and great country of Canada?
    I will begin by saying that the Commissioner of Official Languages defines linguistic duality as, “the presence of two linguistic majorities cohabiting in the same country, with linguistic minority communities spread across the country”. This evokes a concept we used to hear a lot about, the fact that there are two major host communities. There are two major linguistic groups in Canada and two host societies. These groups have rights that are not only contemporary, but also historic. Let's not forget that.
    In my view, we have put too much emphasis in Canada on the right of each individual to choose between English and French and not enough emphasis on the wealth and synergy that stems from the very coexistence of both official languages. In my view, the concept that best translates this dynamic between the two official languages is linguistic duality.
    However, I hear that linguistic duality is losing ground in some instances, specifically at federal institutions, as some have mentioned. I think we need political leadership to bring linguistic duality back to the forefront. It is extremely important for linguistic duality to have more of a presence in major official speeches across government, including by the Prime Minister and not just in speeches by the minister responsible for the Canadian Francophonie.
    I can assure you that if linguistic duality were truly a fundamental value for Canada, as the Prime Minister, ministers and the entire machinery of government have said, then most Canadians would realize that they all have an interest in having their children learn French and English to ensure that they have the brightest possible future in Canada. For the longest time, that used to be the federal government's message, that if people wanted to get ahead in Canada or give their children the best chances, then they needed to have adequate knowledge of both official languages.
    That being said, I hope that the political leadership that I attribute mainly to the federal government will spread across the country and result in more services in French and better collaboration with the provinces. However, there is nothing I can do about the fundamental problem of shared jurisdiction.
(1145)
    That's what I was getting at in my question: how do we get there?
    Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair?
    No.
    I will come back to that.
    Thank you, Mr. Arseneault.
    We will now move on to Mr. Rioux.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    I am pleased to see my former colleague from the National Assembly of Quebec again.
    Mr. Pelletier, you said at the beginning that bilingualism has declined in government, and the way Act is enforced is a testament to that. As I said earlier, I am new to the committee and I am impressed by what I am seeing. Maybe that's because at some point in Quebec we addressed the issue and decided that French-Canadians from other provinces were not important.
    I understand that many communities do not have schools for francophones. I am told that in Vancouver only one in five francophones has access to a spot in the early childhood network. There is a lack of funding and the issue of accountability was raised earlier. Let's not forget the significant number of francophone immigrants. I think that we have all the ingredients to promote bilingualism, but now we need legislation with more teeth.
    Mr. Foucher, you started talking about accountability earlier and I found that interesting. The school boards are telling us that even though funding is available they have no say in how the money is distributed. In fact, the money is not devoted to French education and the school boards are disadvantaged. I liked your suggestion that the organizations sign the agreement or have recourse if they do have the right to sign it. How could we include that in the legislation?
    I imagine this could be included in Part VII of the Act as a positive measure. There is also the option of recognizing, as Judge Ouellette did in the case of the Yukon francophone school board, that the federal money is given in trust.
    My colleague Mark Power suggested giving federal education funding directly to official language minority school boards. That is currently an option in every province except Quebec, where funding Anglo-Quebec organizations directly requires the approval of the provincial government under a provision of the Loi sur l'exécutif du Québec, if I am not mistaken.
    These are different ideas, different ways in which we could solidify this option. We might also incorporate accountability into the Act.
(1150)
    Mr. Pelletier, you talked about the wealth of bilingualism. I think that people in English Canada understand that better than we do if we look at the number of immersion schools. In Quebec, however, we seem to fear bilingualism. We continue to be insecure and fear assimilation instead of looking at the 2.4 million francophones outside Quebec as assets for promoting our language and culture. How could we change the mentality of Quebeckers and their government when it comes to seeing the benefits of bilingualism? I think your political experience will help you answer that question.
    As you know, bilingualism exists at the federal level and in a more comprehensive way in New Brunswick. As for the other Canadian provinces, a certain form of bilingualism exists in Quebec and Manitoba under section 133 of the Constitution Act, 1867, and section 23 of the Manitoba Act, 1870, respectively. What is more, section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms applies to every province in Canada. However, subsection 23(1)(a) will not apply to Quebec until that province accepts that provision.
    In other words, like Quebec, which chose to have just one official language, French, most Canadian provinces make their own choices on linguistic matters. However, that is no reason to stop promoting bilingualism across Canada, including in several sectors of the federal government. We must promote bilingualism. We have seen some positive signs, including the fact that immersion schools are bursting at the seams and there is demand for more immersion schools, or the fact that every province except British Columbia, I believe, has legislation on receiving services in French. That is significant progress across the country.
    The other good news is that the Official Languages Act is much better perceived these days than it was when it was passed and it is accepted by the vast majority of Canadians. The bad news is the gradual decline in the demographic weight of francophones in Canada.
    I would like to briefly come back to immigration, Mr. Chair. It would indeed be important for the commissioner to be responsible for maintaining the demographic weight of official language minority communities across the country. It would also be important for the Government of Canada to make an extra effort to achieve the immigration targets that have been set. This would help mitigate or counter the loss of demographic weight, which is the biggest threat for francophones in Canada, which, unfortunately, is an argument that plays against Canadian federalism.
    If I may, Mr. Pelletier, I will interrupt you so that everyone can intervene because we are running out of time. You can finish your comments by answering the questions from the other members of the committee.
    We will now continue with Mr. Bernard Généreux for two minutes.
    I would like to point out that those two minutes include time for answers.
    Mr. Généreux, you have the floor.
    We have one hour, after which we are receiving another witness from France.
    For witnesses of that caliber we need to have two hours.
    Mr. Pelletier told us he had to leave at noon. If Mr. Foucher can stay a bit longer, I have no problem with that either.
    Yes, that would be great.
    I am told that Mr. Foucher cannot stay longer either. Mr. Pelletier and Mr. Foucher notified us that they could not stay any later than noon.
(1155)
    Go ahead, Mr. Généreux.
    Mr. Pelletier, Mr. Foucher, thank you for being here.
    I want to quickly come back to the Commissioner of Official Languages.
    Personally — I am not speaking for my party — I have always had a problem with the idea of a monetary penalty of any kind. The question is quite simple: if the Commissioner of Official Languages obtains the power to fine the government — regardless the department — for non-compliance with the Act, who will pay? We can all agree that the money will come out of the left pocket only to be put in the right pocket.
    I can't imagine a scenario where the Commissioner of Official Languages would give a department X fine only to then have the Treasury Board asked to disperse the funds required to pay the fine. Something doesn't add up there. However, if the commissioner asked the Treasury Board to reduce the budget of a department or a given project as a form of penalty, then the department would be sure to react differently than if it were to receive a simple fine because money talks. In any case, it comes out of the same pocket.
    Fining Air Canada is different. By the way, Air Canada is the only airline subject to the Act. The others can do what they want and will no longer be penalized in any way, which will do nothing to improve the French situation in Canada.
    See what I mean? I understand the idea of using some sort of pressure on all the departments, but the reality is — as you said, Mr. Pelletier — that it takes political will to enforce the Act.
    The important thing is to hit the pocketbook, as you said. So far, departments only get recommendations. These punishments would apply only to repeat offenders, those who still do not understand after 4, 5, 6, or 10 investigations, that they are still in breech of the Act and have still not corrected the problem. It is up to you to consider the political possibility of addressing this with fines or reduced budgets. My main argument is the need for immediate, direct, financial consequences for the departments.
    It is noon, the time at which we promised to release you. However, this discussion is truly very interesting. Can we invite you to come back to resume this discussion? If so, I will ask the clerk to work out a time for you to appear again.
    We need to schedule two hours.
    Yes, we need to schedule two hours, especially at your going rate.
    Some hon. members: Ha, ha!
    Are you okay with that, Mr. Foucher, Mr.  Pelletier?
    Yes, Mr. Chair.
    There are a lot of outstanding issues and your very interesting testimony gives the committee food for thought.
    Thank you very much for being here this morning.
    We will now suspend the meeting.





 
 

Mandate

Pursuant to rule 12-7(5), the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages has the mandate to study matters relating to official languages generally. Among other things, the committee may study and examine bills pertaining to the application and modernization of the Official Languages Act (OLA) and its associated regulations and directives, immigration to official language minority communities and minority-language health services.



Allister Surette

Senator Allister Surette

Biography

Allister Surette is a respected leader and executive with over 30 years of experience in education, politics and governance. He has long been a champion of francophone and Acadian communities.

Born and raised in West Pubnico, Nova Scotia, Mr. Surette was elected to the Legislative Assembly of Nova Scotia in 1993, representing the constituency of Argyle. Over his five years in office, he held a number of important portfolios, including special advisor on Acadian and francophone governance within the province’s public school system; Minister of Human Resources; Minister responsible for the Office of Acadian Affairs; and Deputy House Leader.

From 1998 to 2003, Mr. Surette served as President and Chief Executive Officer of the Collège de l’Acadie, the only francophone community college in Nova Scotia. When he arrived in 1998, he oversaw the implementation of a new strategic direction and a new operational structure in order to better position the Collège for the 21st century.

Beginning in April 2000, Mr. Surette played a key role in creating and developing the Université Sainte-Anne of today, a French-language post-secondary institution resulting from a merger between the Collège de l’Acadie and the former Université Sainte-Anne. In 2003, he was appointed its Vice-President of Development and Partnerships, a position he held until he became the President and Vice-Chancellor in 2011. He served in this role from July 2011 to June 30, 2024.

He was a founding member and chair of the organizing committee for the third World Acadian Congress, which took place in Nova Scotia in 2004; a founding member and chair of the Conseil de développement économique de la Nouvelle-Écosse (CDÉNÉ); and a founding member and the first Chair of the Board of Directors of the Western Regional Enterprise Network (WREN). He has also served as Chair of the Council of Nova Scotia University Presidents (CONSUP) and of the Association of Atlantic Universities, and as Co-Chair of the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne (ACUFC). In July 2019, Mr. Surette completed his term as Chair of the Board of Directors of the Landscape of Grand-Pré, a UNESCO World Heritage Site. From 2007 to 2018, he was a member of Assumption Life’s Board of Directors. From September 2000 to November 2002, Mr. Surette chaired the Board of Directors of the Réseau des cégeps et des collèges francophones du Canada (RCCFC).

Mr. Surette has served as President of the Canadian Foundation for Cross-Cultural Dialogue (2018-2023), Chair of the CDÉNÉ (2005–2008 and 2019–2023) and Chair of the organizing committee for the 2024 World Acadian Congress in southwestern Nova Scotia.

In December 2003, Mr. Surette was appointed facilitator by the Canadian Minister of Fisheries and Oceans to lead discussions between herring fishers from Prince Edward Island and New Brunswick, as well as with the provincial governments of these two provinces, to seek solutions to the conflict in the herring fishery in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence. In March 2006, again appointed by the Canadian Minister of Fisheries and Oceans, Mr. Surette facilitated an independent process to resolve a dispute between fishers from Prince Edward Island and the Magdalen Islands regarding lobster fishing on MacLeod’s Ledge.

In October 2020, he was appointed by the Canadian Minister of Fisheries and Oceans and the Canadian Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations and Northern Affairs as a special representative of the federal government, a neutral third party with a mission to communicate with commercial and Indigenous fishers in Atlantic Canada, as well as with Indigenous representatives of communities in the Maritimes and the Gaspé Peninsula of Quebec that hold treaty rights, in order to rebuild trust between them.

In recognition of his contributions, Mr. Surette has received numerous awards, including the Ordre de la Pléiade (Commander) and the Léger-Comeau Certificate of Merit of the Fédération acadienne de la Nouvelle-Écosse. He is also a member of the Ordre des francophones d’Amérique, a Knight in the Ordre des Palmes académiques, and an honorary member of the Executive Council of Nova Scotia.

He has served in the Senate of Canada since December 2024.

 

Rose-May Poirier

Senator Rose-May Poirier

As a Senator, I am proud and honoured to be a voice for the people of my region, to defend their interests and to be at their service.

Biography

Prior to entering provincial politics, Rose-May Poirier was a successful businessperson, working as an insurance representative for Assomption Vie and as an executive VIP manager for Tupperware Canada. During her career, she received numerous distinctions as a sales leader, manager and recruiter, including leading one of the top sales teams in Canada and as one of the best salespeople in North America.

Her political career began at the municipality level where she served two terms on the Saint-Louis de Kent town council. In 1999, Rose-May Poirier made the jump to provincial politics, representing the people of Rogersville-Kouchibouguac for three terms. As a MLA of the Progressive - Conservative Party, Senator Rose-May Poirier was the 1st woman to chair the P.C. caucus. Upon her re-election on June 9, 2003, she was appointed Minister of the Office of Human Resources and 2 years later, in February 2006, she was named Minister of Local Government and Minister responsible for Aboriginal Affairs.

Appointed to the Senate in 2010, Senator Poirier served as the Senate Conservative Caucus Chair and the Vice Chair of the National Conservative Caucus from 2011 to 2015. She recently took back the role as the Senate Conservative Caucus Chair in December 2019.

Senator Poirier currently sits on the Standing Committee on Official Languages as Deputy Chair.

In her community, Senator Poirier has given a lot of her time to various causes: Child Find, Children’s Wish Foundation, Heart and Stroke Foundation, George L. Dumont Tree of Hope campaign and the Friends of the Moncton Hospital as well as economic development for the Kent region.

 

René Cormier

Senator René Cormier

Biography

The Honourable René Cormier joined the Senate of Canada on November 10, 2016, as an independent senator from New Brunswick.

Since his appointment to the Senate of Canada, the Honourable René Cormier is committed to defending and promoting arts and culture, language rights, and human rights. He currently sits on the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages, which he chaired for more than seven years, also serves on the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications and sits on the Artwork and Heritage Advisory Working Group.

The Honourable René Cormier played an active role in parliamentary associations, interparliamentary groups and friendship groups. Senator Cormier acts as First Vice-President for North America on the Open Parliament Network of ParlAmericas. Senator Cormier also served as Vice-Chair of the Canada-Africa and Canada-France Interparliamentary Associations.

The Honourable René Cormier is a founding member of the Acadian Association of Canadian Parliamentarians (AACP), a friendship group dedicated to strengthening and increasing the political influence of the Acadian people within the Canadian federation. Senator Cormier is also a member of the Canadian Pride Caucus, of which he was one of the founding members and one of its first two co-chairs. This Caucus is composed of Canadian Senators and Members of Parliament from different political parties. The main objective of the Caucus is to work in a non-partisan manner to advance the rights of 2SLGBTQIA+ in Canada and around the world.

A committed man of action, Senator Cormier has an impressive professional record in the field of arts and culture. Educated in music at l’Université du Québec à Montréal and in theatre at l’École internationale Jacques LeCoq, in Paris, this multidisciplinary artist has held several positions within Canada’s cultural ecosystem, including that of artistic director, director, actor, musician, composer, cultural manager, and announcer.

A recognized leader, Senator Cormier chaired several national and international organizations, including the Commission internationale du théâtre francophone (CITF), the Fédération culturelle canadienne-française (FCCF), l’Association des théâtres francophones du Canada (ATFC), the New Brunswick Arts Council and the Société Nationale de l’Acadie (SNA), the representative organization for the Acadian people in Atlantic Canada, nationally and internationally. He has also sat on several boards of directors, including that of TV5 Québec-Canada, the Canadian Conference of the Arts, and the Atlantic Visual Arts Festival. 

Throughout his career, he has led countless cultural organizations and events, including providing direction for and presenting a number of variety shows on Radio-Canada television, providing artistic and general direction at the Théâtre populaire d’Acadie, artistic direction for the National Arts Centre biennial Zones Théâtrales, artistic direction for the 2009 Congrès mondial acadien, and management of the États généraux des arts et de la culture dans la société acadienne au Nouveau-Brunswick within the Association acadienne des artistes professionnel.le.s du Nouveau-Brunswick. In that role, Senator Cormier worked with his colleagues on bringing together various linguistic and cultural communities in his native province.

Senator Cormier is recognized for his integrity, his professionalism, his ability to bring people together, and his motivational skills. He has earned many recognitions throughout his career including Knight of the Legion of Honour (2025), The King Charles III Coronation Medal (2024), The Queen Elizabeth II Platinum Jubilee Medal (2023), an honorary doctorate in arts and culture from the Université de Moncton (2018), l’Ordre des francophones d’Amérique (2008), Knight of the Order of Arts and Letters of France (2003), the Jean-Claude Marcus Award for his contribution to francophone theatre in Canada (2005), the Economic Council of New Brunswick manager of the year Award in 2000, and the Éloize Award for theatre artist of the year (1998).

On June 5, 2025, Senator Cormier was elected Speaker pro tempore of the Senate for the 1st session of the 45th Parliament.

Senator Cormier lives in Caraquet, New Brunswick, a vibrant Acadian municipality known as the cultural capital of Acadie.


Mary Robinson

Senator Mary Robinson

Biography

The Honourable Mary Robinson is proud to represent her home province of Prince Edward Island in the Senate of Canada.  Leading up to her appointment in January 2024, Senator Robinson had spent her life involved in many facets of agriculture including agronomy, primary production, marketing, processing, and advocacy. 

For the past three decades, she has been a managing partner of a 6th generation Prince Edward Island family farm and agribusiness. She started her advocacy as a county representative within the Prince Edward Island Federation of Agriculture board of directors.  She has served as President of the PEIFA, as the first female Chair of the Canadian Agriculture Human Resource Council and as first female President of the Canada’s largest farm lobby group, the Canadian Federation of Agriculture.  Senator Robinson was elected as the Vice President of the World Farmers’ Organization in May of 2023.

While building and running her business, Senator Robinson also played an active role in her community for many years.  She was a founding member of a community band, member of Home and School, and volunteer for her children’s sporting events.

Senator Robinson and her husband live in Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island and have two university age children.

 https://droitslinguistiques.ca/en/blog/chercheurs/pierre-foucher

Pierre FOUCHER

Professeur
Pierre Foucher a été professeur aux facultés de droit de Moncton et d'Ottawa, de 1980 à 2020. Spécialiste du droit constitutionnel et des droits des minorités linguistiques au Canada, il a publié plus de 100 articles, chapitres de livre, rapports de recherche ou livres sur ces questions, essentiellement en langue française. Il a été professeur invité dans plusieurs universités à travers le monde.
Contact
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Contact Us
Pavillon Adrien-J.-Cormier
18, avenue Antonine-Maillet
Moncton New Brunswick  E1A 3E9 
 
Court hears drug dealer sold crys­tal meth to under­cover cop
Moncton provincial court

A Monc­ton woman avoided jail on Monday for selling drugs to an under­cover police officer four years ago.

“Hope­fully you’ll prove me right for tak­ing a chance on you,” pro­vin­cial court Judge Luc Labonté told Paula Anne-Marie Goguen, 57, at her sen­ten­cing. “You’re on the right path, keep it up.”

Goguen was one of approx­im­ately 19 people charged as part of the RCMP’s Oper­a­tion J Trans­former, in which under­cover police bought drugs from street-level traf­fick­ers in 2021 and 2022. She pleaded not guilty to traf­fick­ing crys­tal meth on Nov. 10, 2022, and was to stand trial but instead pleaded guilty the day it was to start.

Pro­sec­utor Damien Lahiton asked for two years in prison. He said while she only sold one gram of meth on one occa­sion for $50, it’s a highly addict­ive and deadly sub­stance. He said people often go to prison for traf­fick­ing meth, though some­times their cir­cum­stances lead to a com­munity-based sen­tence.

Defence law­yer Michel Des­Neiges asked for a con­di­tional sen­tence order with house arrest

fol­lowed by a curfew. He said his cli­ent has health prob­lems and has had a dif­fi­cult life, deal­ing with drug addic­tion and abuse.

Des­Neiges said his cli­ent is in a drug rehab pro­gram, has a place to live, and helps other people who had been in her situ­ation. He said she has shown real change in the almost four years since she sold meth to the Mountie.

“She’s doing much bet­ter today than she was in 2022,” he said.

Work­ing against the offender was a crim­inal record with many breaches of pro­ba­tion and court orders, lead­ing the judge to won­der if she will fol­low con­di­tions if she serves her time at home.

While many drug traf­fick­ers do go to prison, they aren’t all incar­cer­ated. Even within the J Trans­former pro­sec­u­tions, while many went to prison - Lahiton said the sen­ten­cing range was 1840 months - at least two served their sen­tences in the com­munity, though the spe­cific details of those cases that led to such sen­tences were not known on Monday.

Goguen asked the court for a chance.

“I regret my actions, doing what I did,” she said.

She added that she was try­ing to save money to buy a tomb­stone for a fam­ily mem­ber who had died and had planned to stop selling once that was done.

The judge determ­ined that her crime deserved 12 months in jail, but he made it 18 months and will allow her to serve it at home, with the first year on house arrest and the rest on curfew. Labonté said that places the onus on her, because if she fol­lows all her con­di­tions she avoids jail, but if she breaches them she could serve the rest in jail, res­ult­ing in a longer jail term than if he had just sent her away for 12 months.

Goguen also has to pay a $50 fine as a way of repay­ing the money the under­cover cop gave her.

Police said in a news release that in the fall of 2021 the Codiac Regional RCMP Crime Reduc­tion Unit, along with the New Brun­swick Integ­rated Enforce­ment Unit, began an invest­ig­a­tion tar­get­ing street level drug traf­fick­ing in the greater Monc­ton area. Dur­ing the invest­ig­a­tion, police seized quant­it­ies of cocaine, Shady 8 pills, fentanyl, crys­tal methamphet­am­ine, hydro­morphone pills, $27,000 in cash, two restric­ted fire­arms and a non-restric­ted fire­arm.

Charges were laid in late 2023 and early 2024.

Irishtown roofing company fined for unsafe worksite

G. B. Roofing and Guy Boudreau were charged with violating the Occupational Health and Safety Act



Damien Lahiton

works as Legal Counsel for Public Prosecution Service of Canada.
Damien can be reached at 506-851-2188

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Damien
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Lahiton
Title
Legal Counsel
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Moncton 
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Public Prosecution Service of Canada
Organization
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Atlantic Regional Office
 https://davidraymondamos3.blogspot.com/2017/04/unbelievable-is-only-word-for-this.html
 

Thursday, 20 April 2017

Unbelievable is the only word for this malicious nonsense

---------- Original message ----------
From: Premier of Ontario | Premier ministre de l’Ontario <Premier@ontario.ca>
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2019 20:00:57 +0000
Subject: Automatic reply: YO Mario Dion Unbelievable is the only word
for this malicious nonsense N'esy Pas?
To: David Amos <david.raymond.amos333@gmail.com>

Thank you for your email. Your thoughts, comments and input are greatly valued.

You can be assured that all emails and letters are carefully read,
reviewed and taken into consideration.

There may be occasions when, given the issues you have raised and the
need to address them effectively, we will forward a copy of your
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response may take several business days.

Thanks again for your email.
______­­

Merci pour votre courriel. Nous vous sommes très reconnaissants de
nous avoir fait part de vos idées, commentaires et observations.

Nous tenons à vous assurer que nous lisons attentivement et prenons en
considération tous les courriels et lettres que nous recevons.

Dans certains cas, nous transmettrons votre message au ministère
responsable afin que les questions soulevées puissent être traitées de
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Merci encore pour votre courriel.
 
 
 ---------- Original message ---------
From: David Amos <david.raymond.amos333@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Feb 25, 2020 at 3:58 PM
Subject: ReThe SANB versus Higgs and I and Section 300 of the Criminal code I just called SNB again we shall if the CBC and the RCMP will reveal who this Marc Martin character and his buddy Deschamps truly are and wheter I am crazy or not
To: <pascale.bergeron@snb.ca>, marc.martin <marc.martin@snb.ca>, Mark.Blakely <Mark.Blakely@rcmp-grc.gc.ca>, ian.fahie <ian.fahie@rcmp-grc.gc.ca>, Bill.Blair <Bill.Blair@parl.gc.ca>, Newsroom <Newsroom@globeandmail.com>, premier <premier@ontario.ca>, premier <premier@gov.ab.ca>, Office of the Premier <scott.moe@gov.sk.ca>, kris.austin <kris.austin@gnb.ca>, Jacques.Poitras <Jacques.Poitras@cbc.ca>, steve.murphy <steve.murphy@ctv.ca>, Nathalie Sturgeon <sturgeon.nathalie@brunswicknews.com>
Cc: motomaniac333 <motomaniac333@gmail.com>, carl.urquhart <carl.urquhart@gnb.ca>, Anderson-Mason, Andrea Hon. (JAG/JPG) <Andrea.AndersonMason@gnb.ca>, premier <premier@gnb.ca>, blaine.higgs <blaine.higgs@gnb.ca>, robert.mckee <robert.mckee@gnb.ca>, greg.byrne <greg.byrne@gnb.ca>, Brenda.Lucki <Brenda.Lucki@rcmp-grc.gc.ca>, barbara.massey <barbara.massey@rcmp-grc.gc.ca>, <barb.whitenect@gnb.ca>, <sylvie.gadoury@radio-canada.ca>


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/pc-diminished-standing-francophone-1.5474180


ER controversy hurts P.C.'s already diminished standing in francophone
New Brunswick

The party already had marketing issues in the north, now they're worse off
Jacques Poitras · CBC News · Posted: Feb 25, 2020 6:00 AM AT



 286 Comments



Robert G. Holmes
Face it; Too many provincial admin costs! Only one Health System, and
one Education System, (for starters), is affordable in the Atlantic
Region. Think of the benefits. Think sustainably. Get the Politicians
out of Education and Health.

David Amos
Reply to @Robert G. Holmes: I agree

Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @David Amos: Give this man his Medicare card!

Marc Martin
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: His current job as Santa Claus is the
reason why they wont allow it...

Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @Marc Martin: The poor man needs to see a shrink real bad!

Marc Martin
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: I know, he now wants to send a sheriff
to some Marc Martin across the province...

David Amos
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: More libel???

Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @David Amos: You wouldn't know what libel is if it stared you
right in the face.

David Amos
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: We shall see if the RCMP agrees with you or not


















Mack Leigh
Poor, poor Jacques Poitras ! His " Liberal " is showing yet again...
Just another piece slanted in the hopes of garnering more Liberal
support... Remember Gallant ? Remember Graham ? This province has had
more than enough Liberal governments to last a lifetime.

David Amos
Reply to @Mack Leigh: YUP

Marc Martin
Reply to @Mack Leigh: I have had enough of incompetent CoRservatives
so what do you sugest ?

David Amos
Reply to @Marc Martin: Methinks you know as well as i that I suggested
that if Higgy were a wiseguy he would have fired you a long time ago
N'esy Pas?

Marc Martin
Reply to @David Amos: That's why he does not listen to you, he would
have fired the wrong guy...

David Amos
Reply to @Marc Martin: Nope

Archie Levesque
Reply to @Marc Martin: What is a CORservative? Is that the same as an
SANB Liberal but just a different color?

Marc Martin
Reply to @David Amos: Then call/write to him again .

Marc Martin
Reply to @Archie Levesque: They are affiliated with PANB you should know this...

David Amos
Reply to @Marc Martin: Why not send a sheriff to your home to serve a summons?

Fred Brewer
Reply to @Marc Martin: Green or Purple would be a good choice.

Marc Martin
Reply to @David Amos: Go ahead...

Marc Martin
Reply to @Fred Brewer: I would vote green, but for you to sugest I
vote for an anti-French group is hilarious.

Marc Martin
Reply to @David Amos: *Why not send a sheriff to your home to serve a
summons?* I am still waiting....












Cleve Gallant
The liberals caused this mess and now they’re upset with Higgs because
he hasn’t got a magic wand to make things better,

Marc Martin
Reply to @Cleve Gallant: Yeah blame it on the Liberals...The Liberals
didn't go with the recommendations tough now did they?

Cleve Gallant
Reply to @Marc Martin: Some people are scared to hear the truth,Now
that’s a proven fact especially with SANB,

Marc Martin
Reply to @Cleve Gallant: What does SANB have to do with this ?

Archie Levesque
Reply to @Marc Martin: So you prefer the Liberal solution of - do
nothing and hope it resolves itself?

Cleve Gallant
Reply to @Marc Martin: Duh,Try everything that that has to do with duplication,

Marc Martin
Reply to @Cleve Gallant: How about closing 1 hospital in Moncton for
then night, its not like they are busy anyways they have a 2 hr wait
compared to other regions.

Cleve Gallant
Reply to @Marc Martin: You should really do your research before
stating something, Two hour wait? Try eight to twelve hour wait thanks
to the liberals,

Marc Martin
Reply to @Cleve Gallant: I know people who live in Moncton its a known
fact they don't need the second hospital at night lets save money !!!

Cleve Gallant
Reply to @Marc Martin: Than close the DUMONT,Maybe that will make you happy,

Marc Martin
Reply to @Cleve Gallant: Oh I see, so your are for closing every
hospitals that are French oriented, that explains all.

Cleve Gallant
Reply to @Marc Martin: English the universal language of the world,
That must be hard for you to swallow,

Mack Leigh
Reply to @Marc Martin: All hospitals in this province are " French
oriented " and that is in and of itself a large part of the
problem..Incessant pandering to one group where only 3 to 5 % do not
speak English is absolutely ludicrous and an blatant waste of
taxpayers money that would be well spent elsewhere.

Marc Martin
Reply to @Mack Leigh: I live in Fredericton they don't even have
French services at front, so obviously you have no idea what your
talking about. *blatant waste of taxpayers money that would be well
spent elsewhere. * And ? Where are these numbers ? How much money
would be saved ?

David Amos
Reply to @Mack Leigh: Methinks Marc Baby is a very nervous camper
today N'esy Pas?

Marc Martin
Reply to @Mack Leigh: *You are more than capable of addressing
non-francophones in English so what is the problem* I cannot have the
same rights then you do ? What if someone only spoke to you in French
? *your German ? Your Arabic ? Your Korean ?* We are in Canada where
there is only 2 official languages.

Marc Martin
Reply to @David Amos: Yeah I am so nervous......I do feel entertained
that I have triggerd a bunch here .

David Amos
Reply to @Marc Martin: How many other Marc Martins do you know who are
camped in Fat Fred City?

Marc Martin
Reply to @David Amos: Why would you ask me ? I don't go around and
stalk people under false pretentions.

Mack Leigh
Reply to @Marc Martin: Oh, did not realize that German was being
included as a " Official " language.

Marc Martin
Reply to @Mack Leigh: Its not, only French and English are. There is a
solution for you there is a whole country that speaks German.....

David Amos
Reply to @Marc Martin: Did you just libel me again?

Marc Martin
Reply to @David Amos: Are you sure your talking to the right Marc Martin ?

David Amos
Reply to @Marc Martin: Methinks you will know for certain if I opt to
serve you a summons in person because the cops won't do their job You
cannot deny that libel is a criminal act under section 300 N'esy Pas?

Marc Martin
Reply to @David Amos: Go ahead...I am waiting.

Marc Martin
Reply to @David Amos: I am still waiting....

Marc Martin
Reply to @David Amos: Davis ?




---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: David Amos <david.raymond.amos333@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2020 21:09:55 -0400
Subject: YO Mr Higgs you and the Health Care CEOs should not deny that
I just caught Krissy Baby Austin being a LIAR on Rogers TV and they
cut me off TRUE or FALSE???
To: "blaine.higgs" <blaine.higgs@gnb.ca>, dale.morgan@rcmp-grc.gc.ca,
"Mark.Blakely" <Mark.Blakely@rcmp-grc.gc.ca>, "Roger.Brown"
<Roger.Brown@fredericton.ca>, "martin.gaudet"
<martin.gaudet@fredericton.ca>, "Brenda.Lucki"
<Brenda.Lucki@rcmp-grc.gc.ca>, "barbara.massey"
<barbara.massey@rcmp-grc.gc.ca>, "barb.whitenect"
<barb.whitenect@gnb.ca>
Cc: "Robert. Jones" <Robert.Jones@cbc.ca>, David Amos
<motomaniac333@gmail.com>, "Holland, Mike (LEG)"
<mike.holland@gnb.ca>, lclark@nbpower.com,
colleen.dentremont@atlanticaenergy.org, "Bill.Morneau"
<Bill.Morneau@canada.ca>, premier <premier@ontario.ca>, Office of the
Premier <scott.moe@gov.sk.ca>, premier <premier@gov.ab.ca>, wharrison
<wharrison@nbpower.com>, gthomas <gthomas@nbpower.com>,
Andrea.AndersonMason@gnb.ca, jesse <jesse@viafoura.com>, news
<news@dailygleaner.com>, nben@nben.ca, premier <premier@gnb.ca>,
"dominic.leblanc.c1" <dominic.leblanc.c1@parl.gc.ca>, "Dominic.Cardy"
<Dominic.Cardy@gnb.ca>, "jeff.carr" <jeff.carr@gnb.ca>,
oldmaison@yahoo.com, andre <andre@jafaust.com>,
"Ginette.PetitpasTaylor" <Ginette.PetitpasTaylor@parl.gc.ca>,
"Sherry.Wilson" <Sherry.Wilson@gnb.ca>, "Ross.Wetmore"
<Ross.Wetmore@gnb.ca>, megan.mitton@gnb.ca, "David.Coon"
<David.Coon@gnb.ca>, "Arseneau, Kevin (LEG)"
<Kevin.A.Arseneau@gnb.ca>, Newsroom <Newsroom@globeandmail.com>,
Nathalie Sturgeon <sturgeon.nathalie@brunswicknews.com>, "mary.wilson"
<mary.wilson@gnb.ca>, "steve.murphy" <steve.murphy@ctv.ca>,
"nick.brown" <nick.brown@gnb.ca>, "robert.mckee"
<robert.mckee@gnb.ca>, "Kevin.Vickers" <Kevin.Vickers@gnb.ca>,
"Tim.RICHARDSON" <Tim.RICHARDSON@gnb.ca>, "Trevor.Holder"
<Trevor.Holder@gnb.ca>, "rick.desaulniers" <rick.desaulniers@gnb.ca>,
"michelle.conroy" <michelle.conroy@gnb.ca>, "Mike.Comeau"
<Mike.Comeau@gnb.ca>, "carl. davies" <carl.davies@gnb.ca>,
"carl.urquhart" <carl.urquhart@gnb.ca>, "Cathy.Rogers"
<Cathy.Rogers@gnb.ca>, "robert.gauvin" <robert.gauvin@gnb.ca>,
"Roger.L.Melanson" <roger.l.melanson@gnb.ca>, "ron.tremblay2"
<ron.tremblay2@gmail.com>, philippe@dunsky.com,
Steven_Reid3@carleton.ca, "darrow.macintyre"
<darrow.macintyre@cbc.ca>, "Chuck.Thompson" <Chuck.Thompson@cbc.ca>,
"sylvie.gadoury" <sylvie.gadoury@radio-canada.ca>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Higgs, Premier Blaine (PO/CPM)" <Blaine.Higgs@gnb.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 00:51:52 +0000
Subject: Automatic reply: I just caught Krissy Baby being a LIAR on
Rogers TV and they cut me off
To: David Amos <david.raymond.amos333@gmail.com>

[Le français suit.]

Dear Sir/Madam:

Thank you for taking the time to write to us. Due to the high volume
of emails that we receive daily, please note that there may be a delay
in our response.

Thank you for your understanding.

If this is a Media Request, please contact the Premier’s office at
(506) 453-2144

Thank you

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Bonjour,


Nous vous remercions d’avoir pris le temps de nous écrire. Tenant
compte du volume élevé de courriels que nous recevons quotidiennement,
il se peut qu’il y ait un délai dans notre réponse.

Nous vous remercions de votre compréhension.

S’il s’agit d’une demande des médias, veuillez communiquer avec le
Cabinet du premier ministre au 506-453-2144.

Merci.


Office of the Premier/Cabinet du premier ministre

P.O Box/C. P. 6000 Fredericton New-Brunswick/Nouveau-Brunswick E3B 5H1 Canada

Tel./Tel. : (506) 453-2144

Email/Courriel: premier@gnb.ca/premier.ministre@gnb.ca

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Cameron, Melanie Dawn (HorizonNB)" <MelanieDawn.Cameron@horizonnb.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 01:02:48 +0000
Subject: Automatic reply: I just caught Krissy Baby being a LIAR on
Rogers TV and they cut me off
To: David Amos <david.raymond.amos333@gmail.com>

I will be away from the office returning on Monday, February 24th


Melanie Cameron
Executive Assistant
506-465-4433



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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: "Info (VitaliteNB)" <Info@vitalitenb.ca>
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2020 01:02:42 +0000
Subject: Réseau de santé Vitalité Health Network
To: David Amos <david.raymond.amos333@gmail.com>

Nous accusons réception de votre courriel.  Un suivi sera fait dès que possible.

Veuillez prendre note que les messages reçus à cette adresse
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Merci!


We acknowledge receipt of your e-mail. A follow-up will be done as
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Please note that messages received at this e-mail address will be
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Monday through Friday.  If you need immediate assistance, dial 911 or
contact the nearest hospital.

Thank you!








On 2/20/20, David Amos <david.raymond.amos333@gmail.com> wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oA1KzEXJMR8
>
> Kris Austin, People's Alliance - Voice of the Province - February 20, 2020
> 19 watching now
>
> Rogers tv
> 32.1K subscribers
>
>
> David Amos​Too too Funny
> David Amos​Ask Chucky why i was barred from the leg 2 years before he was
> David Amos​Ask Austin what he thought of the email everyone including
> Chucky got on Feb 14th
> David Amos​Asdk Austin what he thinks of my lawsuit against the Crown
> David Amos​Chucky did attend one of the hearings because he and
> Vickers are mentioned in the lawsuit
> David Amos​I take false arrest very personally
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: David Amos <david.raymond.amos333@gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 15:59:18 -0400
> Subject: Fwd: YO Mr Higgs Re My right to MEDICARE and NO MORE false
> imprisonment Just as I get another bill from Vitalité I hear Horizon
> want the RCMP to arrest me AGAIN TRUE or FALSE??? (Out of Office )
> To: Rhonda.Brown@globalnews.ca, pm <pm@pm.gc.ca>, "Gerald.Butts"
> <Gerald.Butts@pmo-cpm.gc.ca>, "geoff.regan" <geoff.regan@parl.gc.ca>,
> "Katie.Telford" <Katie.Telford@pmo-cpm.gc.ca>, "Ian.Shugart"
> <Ian.Shugart@pco-bcp.gc.ca>, "ian.fahie" <ian.fahie@rcmp-grc.gc.ca>,
> "andrew.scheer" <andrew.scheer@parl.gc.ca>
> Cc: motomaniac333 <motomaniac333@gmail.com>, david.akin@globalnews.ca
>
> Need I say that I am tired of being called a perennial candidate on TV?
>
>
> http://davidraymondamos3.blogspot.com/2017/05/before-writs-were-dropped-in-bc-and-ns.html
>
>
> Monday, 22 May 2017
>
> Before writs were dropped in BC and NS The VERY UNETHICAL "Journalist"
> David Akin scores a new job as CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT Global
> News???
> Methinks that by now mindless David Akin would have figured out that
> just like one of my favourite artists Gordy Lightfoot I am still alive
> and kicking. However if you scroll to the bottom of this blog you will
> see byway of his Tweets Davey Boy continues to ignore my emails even
> after I talk to his lawyer and send them both a Hell of an email.  Go
> figure why I am not surprised. EH Commissioner Bobby Paulson of the
> RCMP?
>
> Do tell does the CBC or the CRTC or CTV or Roger TV or even CPAC or
> anyone else recall back in 2015 when I stress tested the ethics of
> David Boy Akin and his gal pal Kady Baby O'Malley about voting etc
> during and after the election of the 42nd Parliament? I did that years
> after I talked to Akin the first in in 2004 when he worked for CTV and
> about 2 years or so after Kady had blocked me within Twitter when she
> and her snobby buddies such as Jesse Brown, Jian Ghomeshi, Greg Weston
> and Evan Solomon used to work for CBC too.
>
> https://globalnews.ca/author/rhonda-brown/
>
> Rhonda Brown
> Supervising Producer
> 902 481 4440
>
> Rhonda is a journalist with more than 24 years experience in the
> television industry.
>
> As Supervising Producer, she works with news staff in Halifax and New
> Brunswick in the gathering the day’s stories and getting them to air
> on Global News at 6 pm.
>
> Born in Newfoundland and raised in Ottawa, she’s lived in Halifax for
> more than 22 years.
>
> She’s held a variety of roles with both Global News and CBC over her
> career, with a brief foray into public relations.
>
> A perennial candidate is a political candidate who frequently runs for
> an elected office and rarely, if ever, wins. The term is the opposite
> of an incumbent politician who repeatedly defends their seats
> successfully.
>
> Perennial candidates can vary widely in nature. Some are independents
> who lack the support of the major political parties in an area or are
> members of alternative parties (such as third parties in the United
> States). Others may be mainstream candidates who can consistently win
> a party's nomination, but because their district is gerrymandered or a
> natural safe seat for another party, the candidate likewise never gets
> elected (thus these types are often paper candidates). Still others
> may typically run in primary elections for a party's nomination and
> lose repeatedly. Numerous perennial candidates, although not all, run
> with the full knowledge of their inability to win elections and
> instead use their candidacy for satire, to advance non-mainstream
> political platforms, or to take advantage of benefits afforded
> political candidates (such as campaign financing, name recognition,
> and television advertising benefits).
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Rédaction <nouvelle@acadienouvelle.com>
> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 09:17:12 -0800
> Subject: Re: Fwd: YO Mr Higgs Re My right to MEDICARE and NO MORE
> false imprisonment Just as I get another bill from Vitalité I hear
> Horizon want the RCMP to arrest me AGAIN TRUE or FALSE??? (Out of
> Office )
> To: david.raymond.amos333@gmail.com
>
> Nous avons reçu votre message. Au besoin, nous communiquerons avec
> vous pour plus de détails. Si vous avez des informations
> supplémentaires à fournir, s'il vous plaît, répondez à ce courriel.
> Merci de votre intérêt envers l'Acadie Nouvelle.
>
>
> --
>
> Salle des nouvelles
> Acadie Nouvelle
> [image]
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: David Amos <david.raymond.amos333@gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 18 Feb 2020 13:17:08 -0400
> Subject: Fwd: YO Mr Higgs Re My right to MEDICARE and NO MORE false
> imprisonment Just as I get another bill from Vitalité I hear Horizon
> want the RCMP to arrest me AGAIN TRUE or FALSE??? (Out of Office )
> To: "jordan.gill" <jordan.gill@cbc.ca>, info@vitalitenb.ca,
> info@chautva.com, Annie.Levasseur@chautva.com,
> nouvelle@acadienouvelle.com, darsenault@allnovascotia.com,
> huras.adam@brunswicknews.com, bajer.erica@brunswicknews.com,
> dgnews@brunswicknews.com, restigouche@acadienouvelle.com, news
> <news@chco.tv>, nouvelles@cimt.ca, mike.cameron3@bellmedia.ca,
> "steve.murphy" <steve.murphy@ctv.ca>, callum.smith@globalnews.ca,
> megan.yamoah@globalnews.ca, silas.brown@globalnews.ca,
> travis.fortnum@globalnews.ca, cbcnb@cbc.ca, "Bill.Morneau"
> <Bill.Morneau@canada.ca>, "sylvie.gadoury"
> <sylvie.gadoury@radio-canada.ca>, Newsroom
> <Newsroom@globeandmail.com>, news <news@kingscorecord.com>,
> "bruce.northrup" <bruce.northrup@gnb.ca>
> Cc: motomaniac333 <motomaniac333@gmail.com>, "Michael.Duheme"
> <Michael.Duheme@rcmp-grc.gc.ca>, Qualite.Quality@vitalitenb.ca,
> "Serge.Cormier" <Serge.Cormier@parl.gc.ca>, "robert.gauvin"
> <robert.gauvin@gnb.ca>, media@horizonnb.ca, Kevhache@nb.sympatico.ca
>
> CHAU-TV
> 324 boulevard St-Pierre Ouest
> Caraquet, New Brunswick,
> E1W 1A3       
> Annie Levasseur
> Email : info@chautva.com
> Annie.Levasseur@chautva.com
> Phone : (506) 727-4417
>
>
> L'Acadie Nouvelle - Bureau de Caraquet       
> 476, boulevard Saint-Pierre ouest
> C.P. 5536
> Caraquet, Nouveau-Brunswick,
>  E1W 1B7
> Mathieu Roy-Comeau
> Téléphone : 506 450-6103 (bureau)
> Téléphone : 506 470-2413
> nouvelle@acadienouvelle.com,
>
> Vitalité Health Network
> 275 Main Street, Suite 600
> Bathurst NB  E2A 1A9
> Telephone: 506-544-2133
> Toll-free: 1-888-472-2220
> Fax: 506-544-2145
> info@vitalitenb.ca
>
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/ceo-stands-behind-er-1.5466866
>
> Vitalité CEO stands behind postponed emergency room proposals
>
>
> Proposals 'were very good, were very sound, were evidence based,' said
> Gilles Lanteigne
>
> Jordan Gill · CBC News · Posted: Feb 18, 2020 10:33 AM AT
>
> 28 Comments
>
> David Amos
> Methinks Gilles Lanteigne and I should finally have a long talk ASAP N'esy
> Pas?
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Barbara Massey <Barbara.Massey@rcmp-grc.gc.ca>
> Date: Fri, 14 Feb 2020 19:30:16 -0500
> Subject: Re: YO Mr Higgs Re My right to MEDICARE and NO MORE false
> imprisonment Just as I get another bill from Vitalité I hear Horizon
> want the RCMP to arrest me AGAIN TRUE or FALSE??? (Out of Office )
> To: David Amos <david.raymond.amos333@gmail.com>
>
> I am out of the office until Tuesday, February 18 and have
> intermittent access to Email.  For any urgencies, please contact
> Jennifer Duggan, General Counsel, at 613 825 2981, or my admin
> assistant, Sandra Lofaro 613 843 3540..
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Je suis absent du bureau jusqu'à mardi 18 février, et j'aurai un accès
> intermittent aux courriéls. Pour toute urgence,.vous pouvez
> communiquer avec Jennifer Duggan, Avocate générale, au 613 825 2981,
> ou avec mon adjointe admin. Sandra Lofaro 613 843 3540.
>
>
>>>> David Amos <david.raymond.amos333@gmail.com> 02/14/20 19:29 >>>
>
> Methinks it must be because of my recent comments in CBC about your
> nonsense about emergency Rooms etc N’esy Pas???
>
> Here is just a few that are recorded within my blog etc
>
>
> https://davidraymondamos3.blogspot.com/2020/02/deputy-premier-must-decide-whether-to.html
>
>
> Wednesday, 12 February 2020
>
> Deputy premier must decide whether to fall in line on health-care
> reforms, Higgs says
>
>
>
> https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/nb-doctor-sackville-hospital-emergency-room-closure-1.5462252
>
>
> Doctor shortage forces overnight closure at Sackville ER
>
> More er closures are possible before hours are permanently reduced on March
> 11
>
> CBC News · Posted: Feb 13, 2020 11:32 AM AT
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> 57 Comments
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> David Amos
> Content disabled
> Go Figure These are obviously not my Tweets but I did run against the lady
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> Chisholm Pothier
> @chisholmp
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> Feb 10
> The plan hasn’t even been announced yet and it’s already being
> condemned. We know one thing for sure - we cannot keep delivering
> Health the way we have. It isn’t sustainable with an aging population
> and needs have changed with demographic change anyway. #nbpoli /1
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> Quote Tweet
> Alaina Lockhart
> @AlainaLockhart
> · Feb 9
> Premier @BlaineHiggs you can’t grow NB by reducing services in rural
> areas. NB needs strong rural comms to thrive. The @townofsussex is key
> to the region. You need to start thinking about the people impacted in
> your quest to improve the bottom line.
> https://twitter.com/nsteinbach_rc/
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> David Amos
> Content disabled
> Reply to @David Amos: Chisholm Pothier no longer speaks for the
> government Correct?
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> David Amos
> Need I say I got a few calls after supper last night and the people
> who called could tell I was pretty cranky about something? Trust that
> what I heard on CBC this morning did not help my mood any..
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> David Amos
> Methinks the real problem is that Higgy and Flemming can't get enough
> bilingual folks who want to work within our Health Care System N'esy
> Pas?
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> David Amos
> Reply to @David Amos: Methinks everybody knows since the time of
> Trudeau The Elder New Brunswick has been a great place to grow up and
> get an education but to find work most of our young ones must head
> west somewhere on the far side of Quebec. If the truth hurts so be it
> N'esy Pas?
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> David Amos
> On CBC this morning I heard our mindless Health Minister direct folks
> to the emergency room in another province. Methinks we have not heard
> that last about that N'esy Pas??
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> Jim Cyr
> The people of New Brunswick are some of the silliest people in the
> world. It’s been hilarious to see almost all of them completely turn
> off their brains and freak out over Higgs’ emergency rooms plan. The
> people will now vote out the PCs, of course......just as their silly
> media masters tell them to do. And so the NB medical/fiscal/poverty
> situation will just get worse and worse and worse than it already is..
> You can’t make this kind of stuff up, folks!! Amazing to see.
> Mind-numbingly predictable and monotonous. It’s like kubuki theater at
> this point.. BAD kubuki theater.....lol
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> David Amos
> Reply to @Jim Cyr: Methinks you may be cluing in as to why I call this
> a circus If you can't find fun in the madness then you will go crazy
> like they claim I am. Yea I'm crazy alright. Some say I'm crazy like a
> fox others say I am just another narcissistic fool Hard telling not
> knowing for sure but one thing is for certain I am having fun laughing
> at all the people who laughed at me N'esy Pas?
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> However I can be as crazy as i want to be Higgy should ask the shinks
> in the loonie bin of the DECH what they did with the wiretap tape of
> the mob that I gave them in 2008 that the RCMP refuse to investigate.
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> Terry Tibbs
> Reply to @Jim Cyr:
> Silly? It's just plain "goofy". And once the CONServatives are gone,
> having been exchanged for the Liberals, the process will repeat
> itself, over and over.
> Not one among us able to figure out the only end result is our pocket
> remain empty.
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> Michael Durant
> We need to begin serious talks with Doctors Without Boarders
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> David Amos
> Reply to @Michael durant: Try again That one went over like a lead balloon
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> Ben Haroldson
> Reply to @Michael durant: borders
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> Yves Savoie
> Get your popcorn ready!!! The circus has begun....
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> David Amos
> Reply to @Yves Savoie: Wanna trade some of your popcorn for peanuts?
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> Methinks Trump and everybody knows I have been enjoying the circuses
> on both sides of the 49th for many years from the peanut galley.
> Trump's minions know that just before July 4th, 2002 within a
> statement of Claim against an incredible number of Yankee lawyers I
> promised that I would run in the next Election in Canada. I have
> remained true to my word and have run 7 times thus far. I joined the
> clowns in the centre ring no only to to add my two bits worth and but
> to witness the high diving acts up close and personal. Trust that
> Harper and Higgy et al know that i dearly love the splash just my kids
> and I did at Sea World a long long time ago N'esy Pas?
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> Ben Haroldson
> Reply to @David Amos: Kudos to that, and if you were in my riding you
> would get my vote, fed or prov.
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> Lou Bell
> Reply to @Ben Haroldson: That would give him 14 votes
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> Lou Bell
> Reply to @David Amos: " Methinks trumps and everybody knows I have
> been enjoy.. .... ...... " !!! You really think trump knows who you
> are ?? Seriously ???????????
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> David Amos
> Reply to @Lou Bell: Do you want his lawyers cell number?
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> David Amos
> Reply to @Lou Bell: Better yet do you want me to give them yours so
> you can say hey to your Yankee heroes who locked me up in 2004?
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> David Amos
> Reply to @Ben Haroldson: Thanks for the vote of confidence
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> Ben Haroldson
> The Doctors are just helping to move things along. No sense waffling
> if things are that dire.
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> David Amos
> Reply to @Ben Haroldson: So you say
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> Terry Tibbs
> What do you *think*? Coincidence, or not?
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> David Amos
> Reply to @Terry Tibbs: Methinks we all know the wicked game by now N'esy
> Pas?
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> David Amos
> Reply to @David Amos: BTW I was born in the Sackville Hospital in 1952
> and it saved my butt 3 years later when I went into a coma for a
> month. Methinks for that reason alone I should raise hell to defend
> it. Methinks it should be rather obvious that I quite simply don't
> care what my cousin Megan Mitton and all her Green Party pals say or
> do about it N'esy Pas?
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> Holly Mossing
> Reply to @Terry Tibbs: Not coincidence: ERs and Labour and Delivery
> units have been randomly closing for years due to staffing issues.
> That’s part of the problem, and this move will be part of the
> solution. Government being responsible by listening to the health
> authorities.
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> SarahRose Werner
> How is the pool of doctors who provide nighttime ER coverage supplied?
> Are these doctors who also work day jobs? Does staffing the ER
> overnight make doctors less accessible to patients who seek service
> during the day?
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> Elaine MacDonald
> Reply to @SarahRose Werner: Overnight Doctors come from the family
> practice doctors; so while some work the ER during the day, those who
> work nights will also work office hours during the day before their
> night shift starts. After midnight, the ER is emergencies only, so you
> will be triaged by a nurse, then depending on the triage, you may or
> may not see a doctor.
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> This Friday, from how it seems, there will be no doctor at all; I'm
> not sure if a tirage nurse will assess people however.
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> SarahRose Werner
> Reply to @Elaine MacDonald: Apparently not, because the ER will be
> closed entirely. Which makes sense because triage is a sorting
> procedure, not a treatment procedure. The word "triage" comes from the
> process of sorting battlefield patients into three levels: those will
> recover even without treatment, those who will even if treated and
> those for whom treatment will make a difference. If there's no one
> available to provide treatment, there's no point doing triage.
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> SarahRose Werner
> Reply to @Elaine MacDonald: "Overnight Doctors come from the family
> practice doctors; so while some work the ER during the day, those who
> work nights will also work office hours during the day before their
> night shift starts." - I'm not surprised that doctors who've already
> worked during the day are averse to taking overnight shifts as well.
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> Terry Tibbs
> Reply to @SarahRose Werner:
> Why would they be "adverse"? If the "stories" told to us are true,
> after supper the family practice doctor heads out to the ER for 7pm,
> taking paperwork, or reading material, to catch up on.
> Right around maybe 10, or 11pm they pull up a bed and have a snooze,
> because there "might" be only 5 patients overnight, (this is "the
> claim") maybe only one needing his/her attention, so the nurse can
> wake him/her up as required. 7am the shift ends, doctor leaves fully
> rested,12 hours pay richer.
> In some cases, if the doctor lives real close, they go home, coming in
> only if needed.
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> Holly Mossing
> Reply to @SarahRose Werner: Yes, it does, which is part of the
> problem. These are great shifts for doctors to pick up (quiet and pay
> very well), but don’t help the health of local people overall because
> the doc may see 5 urgent patients overnight but not be able to work at
> see *25* the next day. That’s a big capacity issue.
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> David Amos
> Reply to @Elaine MacDonald: Its a pity that nobody in Sackville would
> listen to me this week
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> David Amos
> Reply to @David Amos: However I will disclose that the Office of the
> CEO of one of our Health Care systems called me a few days before
> Flemming's big announcement in order to reach an understanding as to
> why I am going to file a lawsuitin order to get my Medicare Card and
> other things. I have heard nothing but crickets since. Methinks they
> think I am bluffing Others know I am not N'esy Pas?
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> Ian Scott
> It would help if the management would outline what it takes to have an
> ER open 24/7. I do not think a lot of the public has a clue as to what
> it means to open an ER to all comers and the staff then needed to
> cover all reasonable issues. You cannot confuse the public and
> ambulances etc where to go each night if staffing gets short. It makes
> it worse. If you staff with general practice then they must have
> extended training in ER issues. Otherwise the next thing is the
> complaint that things were not done . Then comes the standard
> equipment needed for stroke trauma etc, like CT scanners etc. Even
> appendectomy becomes an issue without ultrasound or CT. Its really a
> standard of practice and it requires a service level that is very
> difficult to reach in small centers. Otherwise you just end up
> shipping people out again and delaying diagnostics and the right
> treatment, some of which are time related. Would you want surgery for
> something that is not needed? Or have blood thinners given when you
> actually have a brain bleed etc.
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> SarahRose Werner
> Reply to @Ian Scott: One thing I've been reading in comments on
> stories on this issue is that people mention being "stabilized" in a
> smaller centre before being shipped out to a larger one. Not being a
> medical professional, I don't know what resources and skills are
> required to "stabilize" patients. Is this something that could be
> achieved in some other way, for example, by expanded and improved
> paramedic service?
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> Ian Scott
> Reply to @SarahRose Werner: That is the care in bigger centers, well
> trained paramedics to stabilize at site and transport. Still most
> stroke issues need CT before treatment. Heart issues may be
> "stabilized" with drugs etc but transfer really is key for assessment
> . Trauma , (major) , needs a trauma center. I am not sure how many
> paramedics can intubate in the field at this point in NB but even an
> acute asthma or allergic issue might need it. Its what has been
> suggested. The numbers are small in many of these towns.Even having
> those staff may prove difficult down the road. Helicopter Air
> ambulance is another issue, complex and expensive but out there.
> Freddy is a trauma center for a certain level , but even it only has a
> snowfield for landing.
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> SarahRose Werner
> Reply to @Ian Scott: Okay, so if someone has a heart attack, acute
> allergic attack, stroke, etc. in Sussex in the middle of the night and
> that person needs some sort of immediate treatment to tide them over
> until they get to the Saint John Regional, how is that provided? To
> me, that's the crux of the issue here. I agree that 24/7 ER service in
> all locations is not the answer. What are other possible answers?
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> Elaine MacDonald
> Reply to @SarahRose Werner: In that situation, the patient will be
> sent on to Saint John/Moncton (not sure which hospital in regards to
> Sussex) regardless if they are stable or not.
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> SarahRose Werner
> Reply to @Elaine MacDonald: Are there increased to the patient if
> they're sent on without stabilization? What are those? What will be
> done to ameliorate those risks?
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> Holly Mossing
> Reply to @SarahRose Werner: There is a great study on this that showed
> that cardiac patients who were “stabilized” at a small center then
> transferred had worse outcomes and a higher death rate than patients
> who bypassed their local ER and were brought directly to where they
> could receive specialized care, for example. (
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/28615177/ ). Advanced care
> paramedics need to be normalized in New Brunswick and supported to
> make health care as safe as possible. I’ve never voted Conservative
> but in this case Higgs’ government is doing absolutely the responsible
> thing. We need to make sure they follow through with increased daytime
> services.
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> David Amos
> Content disabled
> Reply to @SarahRose Werner: Methinks you must have read some of my
> comments N'esy Pas?
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> David Amos
> Reply to @SarahRose Werner: Hmmmm
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> Donald Smith
> There has to be a reason, or reasons why NB Cannot attract them ???????
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> Mack Leigh
> Reply to @Donald Smith: There definitely is however no one is allowed
> to talk about the " Elephant " in the room.
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> Ian Scott
> Reply to @Mack Leigh: Major centers are not really having that issue
> except for OR constraints for time for some specialists and no beds
> because of acute care bed blockers. Bathurst has excellent docs as
> does Edmonston and they are better at language issues than the south.
> Freddy and SJ and the Moncton centers also attract excellent staff.
> Its in between that is the issue , and medicine has changed , as have
> expectations and the standard of care. An ER is just that , all
> comers, not a clinic. One has to meet rigid standards of care. And
> those are hard to meet in 4k population or less towns and villages.
> Aging issues are one of the biggest issues and its being met poorly.
> Billing numbers are a thing of the past so not in the question. There
> could certainly be some concern I suppose of young docs worried about
> potential language issues but low.
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> Elaine MacDonald
> Reply to @Ian Scott: What people seem to forget is that Sackville,
> while a population of 5000 including Mt. Allison students, also
> services Dorchester, Memramcook, Port Elgin, Murry Corner as well as
> we get patients from the Cape like Cocagne, Cap Pele, Shediac. We've
> had people from Moncton and surrounding area come to our hospital in
> increasing numbers over the past two years, even as far as Anagance,
> AND we get people from NS as well like River Hebert and Amherst. It
> isn't just NB, but NS we serve too.
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> So no, we don't have a 4K or less patient possibility, we have much
> more than that.
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> SarahRose Werner
> Reply to @Elaine MacDonald: Then maybe NS would like to contribute
> some money to pay for overnight service at the ER.
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> Terry Tibbs
> Reply to @SarahRose Werner:
> Don't you believe for a moment they don't.
> Show an out of province medicare card at a NB hospital and the eyes
> light up like a one armed bandit hitting a jackpot.
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> David Amos
> Reply to @Donald Smith: Everybody knows the reasons
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> David Amos
> Reply to @Mack Leigh: I do
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> Brian Robertson
> This is just the logical next step in the deterioration of healthcare
> under the thumb of a government administered monopoly.
> When you have no money and no Doctors and costs are still increasing
> because all your workers are members of public service unions that can
> hold the public hostage; what else can happen?
> The viability of single payer healthcare is based on the metering of
> services in order to control costs.
> Public needs and individual abilities to pay simply do not factor into
> the equation.
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> Terry Tibbs
> Reply to @Brian Robertson:
> Hold the phone, Just STOP, and *think* for a moment, you have been
> misdirected just like you are supposed to be.
> EVERY other province, or territory, has "evil" union belonging health
> professionals, this is not a NB only "thing".
> We are supposed to be short of 100, maybe 200, health professionals
> needed per capita (a different number pops out whenever those in
> charge are asked).
> We know the pay and benefits in NB are "short" hence the shortage of
> health professionals.
> Yet the cost of healthcare is higher (per capita) than every other
> province, or territory.
> So, either EVERYONE in NB is constantly sick, or the extra cost is
> somewhere else other than with the health professionals.
> I respectfully *think* you should be looking elsewhere.
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> Brian Robertson
> Reply to @Terry Tibbs:
> All Provincial healthcare systems are following the same pattern
> decline; except possibly Quebec who enjoys a lucrative infusion of
> Federal transfer payments annually. New Brunswick just seems to be
> ahead of the curve in terms of declining services and wait times.
> There is more than enough blame to go around for this spiral trip
> around the drain. Yes, and that includes your healthcare
> professionals.
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> David Amos
> Reply to @Terry Tibbs: Methinks he knows you are correct Quebec is a
> UNILINGUAL Province Hence its costs are less N'esy Pas?
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> John Pokiok
> There you have it no Doctor wants to live in rural setting it's a hard
> core fact.
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> Ian Scott
> Reply to @John Pokiok: Thats not really true. Being an ER doc is a
> different fish from a GP office setting. It requires an extension of
> training.If you open an ER then you have every issue from Intubation
> to trauma to poisoning, heart attack stroke, delivery etc. ER trained
> docs are a separate entity . You are asking a GP to be everything and
> have little backup and extended hours and then have a practice in the
> community. It takes a serious block of staff to do this around the
> clock. And to have surgical backups for obstetrics etc.And to then
> live in communities with 4K people is not easy.
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> David Amos
> Reply to @John Pokiok: Many do when they retire
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> Elaine MacDonald
> Reply to @John Pokiok: And yet we just had *2* doctors from US
> background move to Sackville to practice. It's not a matter of no
> doctors wanting to move to rural areas.
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> David Amos
> Reply to @Elaine MacDonald: Maybe they are willing to cover the midnight
> shift
>
 
 
 
 

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