Saint John proposed collecting road tolls from suburban commuters as a way to avoid major cuts in services. (Julia Wright, CBC)
New information is emerging about
last-minute talks over the past month between the Progressive
Conservative government and the City of Saint John, as municipal
officials tried to win a better deal on fiscal reforms.
Council
voted 7-3 to approve the package of reforms, even though it was largely
unchanged from a previous version and fell well short of what many with
the city had been looking for.
City officials say the
municipality faces $11 million to $12 million in cuts to services if new
revenue sources aren't found by 2021.
Two new
key reform proposals advanced by the city were both rejected by the
provincial government during those recent talks, Local Government
Minister Jeff Carr confirmed Tuesday. The proposals were:
A plan to place highway tolls on provincially owned roads leading into the city.
Allowing the municipality to keep the province's portion of property tax collected from heavy industry.
Carr said
the highway toll proposal would have seen tolls set up on six to eight
roads leading into the city from outlying communities.
It was rejected in part, he said, because not all councillors were in favour.
"Council was split and we just didn't believe the tolls will work long term for the City of Saint John."
At least 2 councillors opposed
Coun.
Blake Armstrong and Deputy Mayor Shirley McAlary have each spoken
against the idea of tolls. McAlary said road tolls would only hurt city
retailers and other business sectors.
That
would see a special levy added to the tax bills of property owners,
people living in nearby suburban communities and local service
districts.
"To me that's more fair, and then you only look at
it once a year," McAlary said. "So if you're going to hate Saint John,
you only hate them when you're paying for that. You don't hate them 365
days of the year."
Province can't afford revenue loss
Regarding
the issue of property tax revenues, Carr said Service New Brunswick
records show the government would be giving up $16 million if the
industrial portion were turned over to the city, and a total of $80
milllion provincewide.
"If we give to Saint John, then we have
to give all the other municipalities the same consideration," Carr said.
"And we just don't have that much money that we can lift and move over
in one specific time."
Local
Government Minister Jeff Carr says the province and city discussed a
number of changes to the fiscal reform package in the 38-day period
leading up to Monday's vote of Saint John council. (CBC)
Carr said a city pitch to keep all the traffic-ticket revenue collected in Saint John was rejected for the same reason.
The government did agree to last-minute changes to the language on three municipal reform proposals.
One
will look at changes to the binding arbitration process for police and
firefighters, another will make it easier for the city to collect
surpluses from Saint John Energy, and a third changes the makeup of a
regional task force of provincial and local government officials.
128 Comments Commenting is now closed for this story.
David R. Amos Methinks desperate politicians do desperate things N'esy Pas?
David R. Amos Methinks Mr Higgs and his minions know why I found these statements more than merely interesting N'esy Pas?
"The document also commits to legislation that will allow the city to keep surpluses made by Saint John Energy."
"At that time, several councillors were unhappy the province only
committed to review the property tax system, rather than go ahead with
changes — particularly to the way revenue from heavy industry is
allocated."
"While the new version promises no more than a review of tax policy, the
language on binding arbitration is much stronger. It says the province
will bring forward new legislation based on a city council motion after
the municipality has consulted on the issue with its local unions."
David R. Amos
Content disabled After it was liked
Methinks its rather
pointless for me to offer any further input into Saint John's woes in
light of the fact that a simple "YUP" is blocked N'esy Pas?
Bernie Heather McIntyre If the Irving's payed what their suppose to instead of getting special privileges, Saint John would be do quite well.
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @Bernie Heather McIntyre:
Right why be responsible and live within your means when you can just take money from those who have more.
Bob Smith
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: That's the mantra of SJ council for decades though...overpay
city workers and police/fire and when people question finances, talk of
taxing the suburbs and Irving to make everything sunshine and happiness.
David R. Amos
Reply to @Bernie Heather McIntyre: YUP
David R. Amos
Reply to @Bob Smith: YUP
Bernie Heather McIntyre Typical
Saint John response . Make everybody else but the Irving's pay to make
up the taxes that the Irving's don't. No wonder Saint John is in such a
mess.
David R. Amos
Content disabled
Reply to @Bernie Heather McIntyre: YUP
David R. Amos
Reply to @Bernie Heather McIntyre: Its prohibited to agree with you
Marguerite Deschamps The loyalist City in a mess? Must be the fault of the Francophones, j'crois bin.
Richard Tingley
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: it's comments like this that water thevseedd of linguistic division in this Province!!
David R. Amos
Reply to @Richard Tingley: YUP
Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @Richard Tingley: and any time we dare to speak French, eh?
Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @David R. Amos: maybe you should tell your good friend from Saint-Louis to speak White.
Lou Bell
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: They don't get as many handouts as the francophones.
Lou Bell
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: Put it in your next song , the one you wrote for the Family Reunion !
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps:
Marguerite always wonders who will be and jumps over the first person to
bring French into the mix, but she’s usually the first one and the
instigator.
Wal Wiseman
Man
who in their right mind came up with that idea. Put a toll on the
people who work in your city. McAlary was right this would kill city
retailers and business sectors. Great way to boost the business sectors
of Quispamsis, and Sussex. Currently, people in the outskirts work in
the city, but they also shop in the city, entertain themselves in the
city, etc. How about some proper fiscal management and create some
incentives for people to do business. A toll is a great incentive, to go
elsewhere.
John Pokiok
Reply to @wal
wiseman: yeah but did you read what is her idea instead mount a poll tax
on people outside of city. If you don't know what poll tax is well it's
exactly same tax that British mounted on Americans that sparked
American revolution. Basically SJ wants to spend money and everyone else
to pay for it. I guess must be the remainers of loyalists thinking.
David R. Amos
Reply to @wal wiseman: YUP
George Smith
@ Johnny Horton "Also, most access roads to the city are provincial designated highways and thus paid for by the province,"
And the money the province uses for this comes mostly from the Cities of
New Brunswick because smaller communities don't generate enough taxes
to afford the infrastructure.
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @George Smith:
Thst wasn’t the point, nor the point of the origins,poster,
He was complaining about outsider wear and tear on city paid roads.
While in fact other than a few short blocks to your designation, most of
the trip in and out of SJ, or any city in NB is on a provincial
highway,
David R. Amos
Reply to @George Smith: NOPE
Zac Beatty-Taylor
Maybe get the Irvings to pay their property taxes. Thats an easy 8 million dollars right there
There should be an upper limit of fift thousand thst any person or business ever pays in any given year in taxes,
Jef Cronkhite
Reply to @Zac Beatty-Taylor: Maybe you didn't read the article? The Provincial government gets those taxes........
"Regarding the issue of property tax revenues, Carr said Service New
Brunswick records show the government would be giving up $16 million if
the industrial portion were turned over to the city, and a total of $80
milllion provincewide."
Saint John doesn't benefit either way..........
David R. Amos
Reply to @Zac Beatty-Taylor: YUP
Iron Man Man
NB
Making
the city less attractive is not going to make you make more money.
Bring people, make events, make festivals...keep the city clean. Attract
immigrants that get the jobs there. Offer affordable housing, maintain.
Sometimes to get things moving is needed some investment...that yes, is
going to put the city in more debt, but will also bring more revenue.
Jef Cronkhite
Reply to @Iron Man Man
NB: You don't get it. Saint John's problem is that 75% of the people
working and shopping in the city, live in outlying communities like
Rothesay and Quispamsis. They use our roads, our services, and our
amenities, but they don't pay into our tax base. We HAVE yearly events
and festivals, mostly attended by those who don't pay taxes in the city.
Only the working poor actually LIVE in the city. Those with any kind of
capital live in the suburbs, and REFUSE to pay into the city's coffers.
All the festivals, events and affordable housing in the world is not
going to change that.......
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @Jef Cronkhite:
Then Don’t put on the festivals.
Also, most access roads to the city are provincial designated highways and thus paid for by the province,
Most workers pay to park while working which should be enough to cover
any maintenance of roads that s trip in and out each day causes,
Jef Cronkhite
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: You don't live anywhere near SJ, do you? That would be fine if
that were the case, but it's NOT. The cheapskates don't USE the parking
garages, they park their cars on the off-street parking areas adjacent
to the uptown area. So they further clog up our streets taking the
parking spaces locals need,
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @Jef Cronkhite:
Then fix THAT problem, don’t create new ones by making more taxes and fees.
If on street parking is s problem, remove it. ( but the better solution
is to actually enforce time limits, like teo hour limits so shoppers
can park.)
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @Jef Cronkhite:
So you’ve never left the city. Enjoyed a day in the suburbs? Parked on
their streets and Used their businesses and restaurants.a. Wow boring
life indeed.
David R. Amos
Reply to @Jef Cronkhite: Cry me a river
Tammy Calvin
Saint
John needs to cut back their police force and fire dept and do an audit
of all city departments. Lots of savings can be found, if they look
hard enough. The citizens shouldn't be punished because excessive tax
breaks have been given out to industry.
How are things going with the pension fiasco that the taxpayers ended up
paying heavily for? Another nail in Saint John's coffin unfortunately.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Tammy Calvin:
Police already dont even bother visiting minor crime scenes like broken in cars. And you want even }3££ police?
Jef Cronkhite
Reply to @Tammy
Calvin: Now, there is one of the elephants that no one wants to speak
of. The Saint John Police Force is an overpaid, underworked JOKE. They
don't solve crimes. They rarely even show up after reported crimes, and
if they do show up, they do NOTHING about it.
Yet year after year, they come with their hands out wanting more money.
The city would be far better off by either firing the works and starting
over with a new group or by hiring the RCMP, as other major cities
have done
David R. Amos
Reply to @Tammy Calvin: YUP
Rob
Franklin I
hate to say it, but the coffin was built when the shipyard closed and
moved to Halifax. Every year since then has just been one more nail.
I don't have an answer, but bring things like the shipyard to Saint
John, and people will follow. I think what' s going on uptown is
fantastic, but people can't afford to pay for all that entertainment
unless they have a job period.
John
Pokiok
Reply to @Rob
Franklin: Ah yes let me guess it was an Irving fault for closing the
shipyard nothing to do with lazy workers for miliking it for all it was
worth. Keep on dreaming Irving will never make that mistake again.
Rob
Franklin
Reply to @John
Pokiok: I'm sorry John, but if you read my past posts, you will find I
am an Irving supporter. I never said Irving did it. It was the loss of
that many higher paying jobs that started the downward spiral. Please
don't put words in my mouth
Johnny Horton
Yet people want even more Irving gone from this province, if they think things are bad now.
.qReply to @Rob Franklin:
David R. Amos
Reply to @Rob Franklin: Say Hey to the Irving Clan for me will ya?
Dave
Girdwood In
my experience, a lot of younger people rent in Saint John when they are
starting out, and move to the suburbs when they get married to raise
families, never to return. Saint John needs to review why they are
losing these residents to the suburbs, as well as its attractiveness to
people moving into the broader area (which it loses to the suburbs), and
resolve these systemic issues. Safe schools. Safe neighborhoods. Can't
do much about the weather, but a 10 degree difference in the summer from
Uptown Saint John to Quispamsis is also a factor. It's the livability
things which need to be addressed. Otherwise this is a discussion our
great grandkids will still be having.
Donald Smith
Reply to @Dave
Girdwood: Dave you are correct with all you state. My Wife and I have
listed our house for sale here in Saint John, because of mostly what you
said. Listed it for even below what we paid for it. The City Political
Scene has just got too nuts. Rothesay/ Quispam, Grand Bay has a lot more
to offer in addition to lower taxes than Saint John. Saint John is done
like a donut.
Rob Franklin
Reply to @Donald Smith: how is a donut done?
David R. Amos
Reply to @Rob Franklin: Just like Saint John
Brian Robertson Saint
John prospered until Louis Robichaud and the Liberals robbed it of it's
tax revenue for redistribution accross the Province.
Between that, and their penchant for picking winners and losers when it
came to municipalities, Saint John has been starved into the shrinking
husk we see today.
The Provinces golden goose is now in intensive care.
David R. Amos
Reply to @Brian Robertson: YUP
Joe Campbell New
Brunswick is the drive through province to PEI and NS. Tourism in NB is
sad. It is the waste land for Irving, strip our forest, spray our
forest to kill hard wood and kill our fish.
David R. Amos
Reply to @Joe Campbell: Methinks you are preaching to the choir N'esy Pas?
Joe Campbell
Reply to @David R. Amos: Not preaching, just my opinion! Just like your opinion that you think I am preaching, meh!
David R. Amos
Reply to @Joe Campbell: Methinks I understand why my ancestors warned us to never trust a Campbell N'esy Pas?
Joe Campbell
Reply to @David R. Amos: Classy! Methinks it best to fog that statement.
David R. Amos
Reply to @Joe
Campbell: Methinks you think only liberals such a Mr McKenna who was
born on a Campbell St in Fundy royal can be classy N'esy Pas?
Joe Campbell
Reply to @David R. Amos: Now you are saying I am a Liberal, interesting observation.
David R. Amos
Content disabled
Reply to @Joe
Campbell: Methinks if it walks like duck and quacks like a duck but
denies it then it must be an NDP dude or just another turkey who joined
the Conservatives like Cardy did N'esy Pas?
David R. Amos
Reply to @Joe Campbell: I'm back and nearly died laughing to see that my reply went "Poof"
George
Smith If
you can't charge a toll you can raise the price of all city services
the bedroom communities use in the city. Raise the cost of parking for
those working in the city and any other service provided that our
citizens have to pay for. People moving out of cities to avoid taxes are
the real problem as it downs loads the major tax load onto the cities.
Cities need to be able to get financial relief through fees if they
can't get their fair share of the taxes they generate
Archie Levesque
Reply to @George
Smith: Sussex isnt that far away and a lot of services are now offered
outside of Saint John. Moncton & Fredericton aren't that far either.
Maybe shoppers should head to one of those destinations instead.
David R. Amos
Reply to @Archie Levesque: Methinks Sussex has its own troubles with Mr Carr N'esy Pas?
George
Smith
Reply to @Archie Levesque:
A large part of taxes cities pay go to smaller communities
infrastructure for services they couldn't afford with their small tax
base. The cities like Saint John don't receive their fair share of the
tax pot while smaller communities receive more than they contribute.
Lou Bell Boy , talk about grasping at straws ! What's next , Koolaid stands ??
David R. Amos
Reply to @Lou Bell: Methinks your hero Mr Higgs would help them set up a hot dog stand if they beg him politely N'esy Pas?
Joe Campbell
Reply to @David R. Amos: Is it Irving owned? Mr. Higgs will not fund it unless Irving has a hand in the pot!
David R. Amos
Reply to @Joe Campbell: Methinks your liberal pals are no better N'esy Pas?
Joe Campbell
Reply to @David R.
Amos: Liberals, PC's or what other governments are elected, they are all
the same to me. I really do not think any government in NB will ever
make a difference in my life time.
Andrew Clarkson When you live beyond your means it most often results in loss of the farm!
David R. Amos
Reply to @Andrew Clarkson: Methinks that is often true except if one has friends in the government N'esy Pas?
Freddy Rose Saint
John councillors are trying to squeeze money out of the wrong pot.
Citizens don't have any more to give. The only fair answer is the one
that was suggested in this story from several years ago. But until there
is a revolution and the people wrest control of our province from the
"Royal Family", nothing will change.
"Edmonton-area homes, stores, malls pay lower property taxes than Saint John, but oil refineries pay more"
Joseph
Vacher stop spending money you dont have st john
David R. Amos
Reply to @Joseph
Vacher: Methinks the Feds and the Provincial politicians love doing such
a thing before a writ is dropped no matter what political party holds
the mandate at the time N'esy Pas?
Welby
Trutthough Saint
John should keep the property tax from industry. I want to see Saint
John do well, but setting up highway tolls on every road leading into a
city with 70,000 people is absolutely insane. Thank goodness it was
rejected!
Bob Smith
Reply to @Welby
Trutthough: So, explain the "insanity" of Halifax and their tolls. Seems
to be working fine for them. Rather than tolling SJ bridges, they took
them off.
Welby
Trutthough
Reply to @Bob Smith: A
bridge toll is one thing, allowing people to pay for the quicker route
or convenience for a small toll. A toll on every entrance to a city is
literally building a wall between yourself and the outlying communities.
Joseph Vacher
Reply to @Bob Smith:
halifax doesn't really have tolls, other then the ones on the bridge,
which you can bypass., There should be provincial tolls entering our
province however
David R. Amos
Reply to @Joseph Vacher: Methinks you read the platform of the KISS Party N'esy Pas?
David R. Amos
Reply to @Joseph Vacher: Methinks you know why my Acadian friends get quite chuckle out of your ID N'esy Pas?
Wally Manza The
province can take a weekend and make a special sole exception to tax
law on the Canaport facility but can make sole exceptions to law for the
city of Saint John....why?
David R. Amos
Reply to @Wally Manza: Methinks you know the answer as well as I N'esy Pas?
Greg Miller Highway
tolls---great idea, new revenue + decrease in visitors = less overall
revenue. Who dreamed up this idea? This would be great for another
city competing for business!
Bob Smith
Reply to @Greg Miller: Halifax seems to do just fine with tolls.
Welby Trutthoug
Content disabled
Reply to @Bob Smith: A bridge toll is very different from placing tolls on every entrance to the city.
Bob Smith
Reply to @Welby Trutthough: No tolls at all generates nothing but the usual circular infighting.
David R. Amos
Reply to @Welby Trutthough: True
Greg Miller
Reply to @Bob Smith: Saint John is NOT Halifax!
Jonas Smith I
quite like that this government is level headed and providing good
administration. Something we haven't seen in a long long time here in
New Brunswick.
David R. Amos
Reply to @Jonas Smith: Dream on
John Pokiok And
this is why no one wants to build anything in this city. These guys are
chasing everyone away total insanity you're the highest property tax
city in province for sure, possibly country. To fix your problems you
need to curb spending and do the cuts start living with in your means.
Unbelievable
David R. Amos
Reply to @John Pokiok: Welcome to the Circus
Greg Smith Why
don’t they just install an Irving branded toll booth, so that the
taxpayers’ money being funnelled off to Irving via forgivable loans and
property tax discounts can be done so without the currently attached
administrative expenses?
David R. Amos
Reply to @Greg Smith: Methinks you jest just enough N'esy Pas?
Rene Cusson Maybe
if the city charged industries what they should in taxes and loans
they'd have their money problems solved? Billionaires can usually afford
to pay for things you know. The average person cannot. So stop
squeezing those that don't have the money and start squeezing those that
not only DO have it but are already paying less than they should.
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @Rene Cusson:
Maybe instead of a city trying to do everything, they scale back.
How about it’s time to stop just taxing anyone we can find more so we can all have more.
David R. Amos
Reply to @Rene Cusson: I concur
Greg Smith
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: Johnny “Irving Industry Lapdog” Horton strikes again in the
comments defending tax breaks and corporate welfare for the already mega
rich.
David R. Amos
Reply to @Greg Smith: YUP
Stanley Beemish Reply
to @Johnny Horton: What is it that Saint John is "trying" to do above
and beyond what every other city in Canada is required to do? Things
like, you know, run a police and fire department. Also clear streets,
repair/ replace infrastructure, keep traffic flowing? Has any one done a
per capita cost study? It seems to me we are avoiding the elephant in
the room...
Al Clark LOL
this nugget agaIN?? You can almost set your watch by it. That or
convoluted reasoning why they should continue to let billionaires have a
free ride. MONCTON MONCTON WAA WAAA WAAA. It doesn't take a genius to
figure out why MONCTON is doing MUCH better. Have you heard this idgitcy
ONCE from moncton??
David R. Amos
Reply to @Al Clark: Methinks you SANB buddies around Moncton pound on that drum all the time N'esy Pas?
Phil Nadeau I
just don't get it... When I go to the city, I pay for parking, I
shopped around...supporting local businesses... If I planned to attend a
show... I pay for my ticket.... pay for parking... etc.. again
supporting the city.... I pay fees if I used sporting facilities. This
mentality of some SJ folks that think that the outskirts should paying
for the city financial mess is just ridiculous. It's like asking for
your neighbour to help you chip in some money because you are so much in
debt!!
David R. Amos
Reply to @Phil Nadeau: Methinks you are not alone in your frustration with this nonsense N'esy Pas?
Allan J
Whitney Who could possibly have enough influence to prevent such a sensible policy?
There should also be tolls on that excellent highway system that was unexpectedly piled onto our backs.
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @Allan J Whitney:
Perhaps they should toll the end of your driveway, I mean you are going
to use the road and city services, so you as well should pay tolls.
David R. Amos
Reply to @Allan J
Whitney: Methinks we already pay more than enough in shadow tolls no
thanks to Bernie Lord and Frank McKenna N'esy Pas?
Donald Smith Perhaps Mr. Armstrong was worried about his Business Ops ?
David R. Amos
Reply to @Donald Smith: Perhaps
Donald
Smith Welcome
to the greatest Little City In The East. For a cash strapped City, can
anyone explain why a Civilian was recently hired, for be a Public
Information Officer Position here in Saint John, especially when you see
Police Officers in other Cities acting as Public Information Officers
to the Media and so forth. If Police Officers have to write reports ,
make Court statements and so forth, you mean to tell us, nobody on the
SJPD Could be made Public Information Officer ? Does the person hired
for this position not live outside of the City as well ?
Donald
Smith
Reply to @Donald
Smith: We had Police Officers in Past Years doing this position, I
think a lot of Officers currently on the force could easily do this
position. No, I have no family members on the force. Police know Law
Enforcement Procedures,. Follow the Political Connections for a cash
strapped City.
Al Clark
Reply to @Donald
Smith: I guess you must be a police officer. I think most of them took
shop in highschool for a certain reason. I haven't met too many smart
ones. Did you follow the trial? Better to have someone literate who has
studied communications, even though that translates to professional
fibber.
David R. Amos
Reply to @Al Clark: Methinks you certainly know how to keey friends and influence your cop pals N'esy Pas?
Ben Haroldson So the wanted to tax the yellow brick road?
David R. Amos
Reply to @Ben Haroldson: We ain't in Kansas
Jake Newman Saint John doesn't have a revenue problem but a spending problem.
Coun.
David Merrithew, chair of the city's finance committee, said the new
municipal reform package remains mostly unchanged from last month. (CBC)
Saint John councillors have reluctantly endorsed a proposed
list of provincial and municipal reforms aimed at helping the city
through a looming financial crisis.
It is hoped the reforms will
head off major cuts to city services, following several years of nearly
flat revenue growth and steadily rising costs.
The deal
commits the province to review its property tax policy and to remove the
provincial tax on public transit facilities that belong to
municipalities.
It
will also require outlying communities to share capital costs for
regional facilities such as Saint John's Harbour Station and the Canada
Games Aquatic Centre. Currently, those municipalities help pay for
operating costs but leave the purchase and maintenance costs to the
city.
We didn't get a heck of a lot more, folks, you don't have to read that to know that.
- Coun. David Merrithew
The
reforms could include changes to the binding arbitration process used
to settle disputes with police and fire unions. Right now, those unions
are not legally allowed to go on strike.
The reforms also
commit the province to review the regional service commission model to
better share costs for some services across municipal borders.
At
that time, several councillors were unhappy the province only
committed to review the property tax system, rather than go ahead with
changes — particularly to the way revenue from heavy industry is
allocated.
Council can't win a better deal
The new
report is largely unchanged from the July version. But some councillors
said they are now resigned to the idea they cannot win a better
reform package.
"We
didn't get a heck of a lot more, folks, you don't have to read that to
know that." said Coun. David Merrithew, who heads the city's finance
committee.
Saint
John council has signed on with the province to explore a list of
potential municipal reforms aimed at improving the city's structural
deficit. (CBC)
While the new
version promises no more than a review of tax policy, the language on
binding arbitration is much stronger. It says the province will bring
forward new legislation based on a city council motion after the
municipality has consulted on the issue with its local unions.
The document also commits to legislation that will allow the city to keep surpluses made by Saint John Energy.
Deputy
Mayor Shirley McAlary says the proposed changes in the report will do
little to avert millions in cuts to city services, which will have to be
made at the end of next year.
Local Government Minister Jeff Carr claims the deal will be worth 'several million' dollars annually to the city. (Connell Smith, CBC)
"It's
not addressing 2021 or 2022," said McAlary. "You can say whatever you
like, it's not addressing that, and it's not just $12 million. It's $12
million for 2021 and $12 million for 2022.
"That's a lot of staff and a lot of services that we've got to cut over the next number of years."
'Politically motivated'
Premier Blaine Higgs presented the revised report to city councillors at a closed door meeting last week.
Local Government Minister Jeff Carr was pleased with council's approval of the document Monday night.
But he disputed city claims that the city will have to make $12 million in cuts by 2022.
47 Comments Commenting is now closed for this story.
David R. Amos Methinks
it should be kinda obvious why there was an article yesterday quoting
Gallant's Chief Staff taking pity on Saint John while the Federal
liberals write off huge loans to the Irving Clan in Saint John N'esy
Pas?
Two
multimillion dollar loans given to Irving-owned Atlantic Wallboard in
Saint John have been written off by the federal government. (Andrew Vaughan/The Canadian Press)
The federal government has written off
the balance of two multimillion-dollar loans given to Irving-owned
Atlantic Wallboard in Saint John.
The Atlantic Canada
Opportunities Agency closed the file on the two loans in March after
deciding that the full amount "has not been and likely will never be
repaid," according to a memorandum obtained by CBC News.
The
two loans, called "conditionally repayable contribution agreements,"
were worth a combined $7.4 million. They were made under ACOA's Saint
John Shipyard Adjustment Initiative.
In
the March 27 memo, ACOA vice-president Kent Estabrooks says the company
"has fulfilled their obligation to repay according to terms of their
contribution agreements," though it hadn't repaid the full amount.
He recommended that agency president Francis McGuire approve the closure of the two files.
Amount repaid not known
"The contributions will never be fully repaid," Estabrooks wrote. McGuire approved the recommendation with his signature.
The
memo says Atlantic Wallboard only had to start repaying the loans when
it "demonstrated a net income related to the project" but that didn't
necessarily require the entire amount.
ACOA
released the memo in response to an access to information request. The
agency redacted the precise amount that had been repaid.
Agency
spokesperson Sharon Stanford-Rutter said there's still $9.9 million
"outstanding" under the shipyard program from Bayside Realties, another
Irving company.
"ACOA is continuing its due diligence on the $9.9 million to determine if any amounts are repayable," she said.
J.D.
Irving Ltd. spokesperson Mary Keith said in an email that Atlantic
Wallboard "fulfilled its obligations" under four loans it received from
ACOA.
Keith said in an email statement that the company, which
makes gypsum drywall, built "the most modern plant in Canada" and has
grown to 100 employees, "despite weathering the great recession and
collapse of the U.S. housing market."
Loans followed Irving's closure of shipyard
The
two loans were part of a $55 million federal program launched in 2003
to cushion the economic impact of J.D. Irving Ltd. closing its shipyard
in the city. Ottawa established the program after Irving centralized its
shipbuilding business in Halifax.
At the time the initiative
was announced in 2003, Irving said it would not receive any of the
federal funding until it matched it with its own money.
Atlantic Wallboard didn't meet success targets required for repayment of a $35 million loan. (CBC)
In
a 2006 report, ACOA said an initial $4 million had been earmarked for a
feasibility study to find a new use for the site and said that would be
increased to $9.9 million. That's the amount still outstanding.
ACOA then provided Irving with a total of $42.4 million
to help establish Atlantic Wallboard. The first loan, for $35 million,
wasn't repaid because the company didn't achieve certain targets, ACOA
said.
The two subsequent loans, the ones written off this year,
were for $6.1 million issued in March 2011 and $1.2 million issued in
March 2012.
'Full recovery' of loans not required
An
ACOA spokesperson told The Canadian Press last year that the company had
repaid $540,000 of those two loans and that any repayment meant "that
the company has met the required milestones for repayment for those
years of operation."
But ACOA is now refusing to say how much of the loans had been repaid when the files were closed in March.
The
memo says the two funding agreements weren't designed to require "full
recovery" but to reduce the risk that Atlantic Wallboard would reap
"significant windfall profits … without ACOA first being repaid."
The Saint John Shipyard Adjustment Initiative was controversial when it was announced in 2003.
Then-Liberal
industry minister Allan Rock, responsible for ACOA when the funding was
approved, had accepted a free family vacation at the Irving fishing
camp on the Restigouche River during his time as health minister.
Federal ministers were not allowed to accept gifts worth over $200 under the rules in place at the time.
237 Comments Commenting is now closed for this story.
David R. Amos Methinks the liberals just made another major faux pas mere weeks before the writ is dropped N'esy Pas?
Maggie Leard methinks
it is very sad for our federal Ottawa government to allow Irving to
close out the historic to saint john shipbuilding enterprise ….the move
has not allowed any savings nor time to construct navy frigates by
giving more work to irving Halifax instead of keeepint saint john..where
the talented ship buildiers are located...(not to mention the deeper
and better harbjour to operate navy ships (and patridge island that has
welcomed navy ships from 1700's onward.and the site of the first fog
horn lighthouse designed by saint john researchers and entrepreneurs.!)
however, I cant believe trludeau is allowing this non payment...for he
must have approved the closure of these files....perhaps he thinks
NBers are so stupid as to re-elect the liberal MPs (in great
numbers....) that exist in NB......
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Maggie Leard:
Yes cause Halifax has no history with shipbuilding... no islands in its harbour.l.
David R. Amos
Reply to @Maggie Leard: Methinks it interesting that you employ the word methinks N'esy Pas?
Al Clark
Good 'ol Francis McGuire. Whenever his name appears in the news it costs us BIGTIME!
JJ Carrier
Collusion...patronage...carpetbagging...Irving
money for free...free trips on the Restigouche...Jacques Poitras
reporting...must be a Tuesday...
Lou Bell
I
buy Lottery tickets EVERY week and NEVER win ! The Government assures
these BILLIONAIRES win BIG ( Millions ) 2 or 3 times a year !
Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @Lou Bell: lottery tickets is a voluntary tax on the fools. What does that tell ya?
Lou Bell
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: By the fools . Your SANB / Liberal endorsers.
John Valcourt
I guess Dominic's plane trip wasn't so free after all now was it. This reeks of the liberal pary hierarchy.
George
Matthews
Reply to @John Valcourt: In march we had a conservative gov.
John Valcourt
Reply to @George
Matthews: but those decisions are made by Ottawa and that is the federal
liberal party who allowed those loans to slide, not the provincial pc
party although I am sure higgs was smiling ear to ear about the decision
that was made for his boss.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @John Valcourt:
It was also the liberals in power in the early 2000s when the contracts were made.
Natalie Pugh
This
should infuriate every citizen in NB! For those PANB haters a reminder
that this was one on the top of their platform to eliminate corporate
welfare and force Irving to pay it's due taxes to New Brunswick. This
must happen but with a headline so buried beneath garbage news most NB's
wont give it a second thought!
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Natalie Pugh:
Why? All Irving has done is use the systems available to them. Like
anyone can, you are free to start a company and put your HQ in Bermuda.
Plus, the Irving’s receive chump change compared to Alberta oil companies in subsidies,
Have you ever taken advantage of government initiatives? Say like one
of the energy efficiency bursuries? That’s funded by every taxpayer,
giving you their money. There tons of such programs out there. It’s no
different,
David Peters
Reply to @Johnny Horton:
Can anyone get 1000's of acres of crown land to harvest for $1...and then get taxpayer's to build a road in to access it?
David Peters
Reply to @Johnny Horton:
...and then have a marketing board set the price of lumber less than
what it costs to harvest it, for other private woodlot owners? Can
anyone do that?
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Peters:
Yes.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Peters:
You are free to start a wood company, build it up and lobby the government
Not a thing stopping you or anyone, other than the fact you’d rather
waste time complaining at someone else’s success than actually go and
get your own success.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Peters:
Hey david, start a business and put your headquarters in Bermuda. Not a thing stopping you. All legal.
Anne Berube
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Stop preaching to the choir, you know very well if you Ma & Pop shop, you will go nowhere.
James Risdon
It's
only $7 million. When you think about the contribution of the Irvings
to the economy, is a few million dollars either way really a big deal?
Jordan
O'Brien, who was former Liberal premier Brian Gallant's chief of staff,
says fiscal reforms proposed last month by the Progressive Conservative
government don't go far enough. (Brian Gallant/Facebook)
Brian Gallant's former chief of staff says Saint John city
council finds itself in a "terrible" dilemma as it wrestles with whether
to endorse a report on possible fiscal reforms.
Jordan O'Brien
says the proposals, released last month by the Blaine Higgs government,
are "not that bad" but don't go "as far or as fast as we had had in
mind."
The report by a working group of provincial and city officials was the product of a three-year, $22.8 million financial aid package the previous Liberal government put in place for the city in late 2017.
O'Brien
said the proposals put council in a difficult position because they
could take several years to implement, and the city faces the expiration
of the three-year funding agreement next year.
"Changes need to happen right away if they're going to keep the situation in the black," he said in an interview with CBC's Information Morning Saint John.
Debate over report
The
Higgs government released the report last month. It proposes a review
of the city's property tax base, including industrial assets, and of how
regional services are administered and funded.
Saint John city
council debated the report at a July council meeting but could not agree
on whether to accept its recommendations. Mayor Don Darling cast the
tie-breaking vote to put off the decision until the next council
meeting, which takes place tonight.
Gallant
promised the package in September 2017 as Saint John city council faced
the prospect of deep service cuts to balance its 2018 budget.
The
three-year funding deal "was there to create some time and space to get
the more substantive reforms in place," O'Brien said.
MacPherson's audit
said the city "leveraged" the looming provincial election to get the
Liberals to offer the deal. But O'Brien said the pressure was coming
from the city's need to make decisions about possible cuts in its 2018
budget.
O'Brien said the cuts council would have needed to make
in 2018 without the bailout would have made the city less attractive to
newcomers, driving more people to outlying municipalities and deepening
the city's fiscal challenge.
They
had indicated that it was perfectly appropriate, legally, and
unfortunately the current government didn't see fit to release those
legal opinions.
- Jordan O'Brien
"These sorts of the cuts, we felt, would put an end to that progress and send things back in the wrong direction."
Because
the province is ultimately responsible for municipal debt, "the risk of
not acting was a lot bigger than the risk of acting," he said.
Opinion challenged
O'Brien
recently published a newspaper opinion article challenging
Auditor-General Kim MacPherson's recent audit of the bailout.
He
said that she lacked key information and that her conclusion that the
Liberals violated two provincial laws was contradicted by legal advice
from government lawyers.
MacPherson was denied the right to see that advice by the current Progressive Conservative government, O'Brien said.
"She did a really good job," O'Brien said. "She always does. … but you know, nothing's perfect."
MacPherson's
audit in June said the government circumvented" the Local Governance
Act and violated the intent of the Financial Administration Act.
O'Brien said government lawyers had advised him and Gallant that there was no legal concern.
'Perfectly appropriate'
"They
had indicated that it was perfectly appropriate, legally, and
unfortunately the current government didn't see fit to release those
legal opinions to her, so she wasn't able to rely on that information,"
he said.
O'Brien also disputed MacPherson's conclusion that the
bailout package was out of the norm and would give the city an incentive
to keep running deficits.
He said the funding was no different
from money the province transfers to all municipalities for a range of
projects and services.
"Without those dollars, many or most municipalities would be running deficits every year," he said.
MacPherson
stood by her conclusions earlier this month after listening to two days
of witnesses testify about the deal at the legislature's public
accounts committee.
"The agreement did not include specific
outcomes to be achieved … and has failed to effectively address the
city's challenges or mitigate inherent risk to the province," she said
at the time, repeating her main criticisms.
MacPherson's spokesperson said Monday she had no comment on O'Brien's interview.
Matt
Steele O'Brien
, one of Brian Gallant's backroom boys , now thinks that he know more
than the Auditor General knows...lol . Maybe O'Brien can enlighten the
taxpayers about how Brian Gallant was going to blow 130 MILLION of the
taxpayers cash on some Francophonie scam games that Gallant claimed not
to be informed about ; or how Gallant's Best Man from his wedding ended
up on the Francophonie Games organizing committee where over 2 MILLION
dollars was spent ?
Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @Matt
Steele: this was about giving money for helping Saint John, an
Anglophone City, get out of the hole. What does this have to do with la
francophonie?
Paul Estey I
only have one question on this matter that no one has obviously
broached before...where was the CFO for the City of Saint John or the
Auditors that reviewed the year end Financial Statements over the past
10 years or so? Where there ever recommendations to correct the path
they were going down?....Can anyone answer this ???
David R. Amos
Reply to @Paul Estey:
Methinks some folks must recall former Saint John councillor John
Ferguson trying to get them to act ethically in 2006 before the LNG
terminal was built N'esy Pas?
Jason Inness Let's
face it, this was a payoff in the lead up to a provincial election so
that council wouldn't attack the Liberals for helping the Irvings screw
the city again. It was hush money. It wasn't meant to address any root
causes of the city's financial issues, it was meant to kick the problem
down the road to the next elected council. They should never have
accepted the money to begin with. They should have instead used their
public profiles to fight to have the LNG property assessment reversed to
reflect the real value of the property. By accepting the money, they
(council) basically gave up the fight for fair property taxation before
it even began.
David R. Amos
Reply to @Jason Inness: YUP
Richard Dunn O'Brien.......Gallant's
right hand man.......who has an Arts Degree, with a focus on European
History, is telling us that he knows better than the Auditor General?
David R. Amos
Reply to @Richard Dunn: Welcome to the Circus
Maggie
Leard saint
john is new brunswick's founding city...the oldest incorporated city in
what is now canada....the historic value of saint john needs to be
included in any government bureaucrats thinking on $$ matters....the
provincial governments previously sent millions of dollars to the
moncton area...$$$ that saint john was not given....tourism $$$ looking
back several decades was ordered by liberal governments to not include
saint john and the lower saint john river communities....the financial
problems in saint john are result of fredericton politicians delibertly
ignoring the history and economic base historically ---- one also has to
blame the federal governments ignorance in developing heritage sites in
saint john (like partridge island, loyalist cemetaries, the orange
order, the military history of british navy in saint john.etc)
i note that 'bilingulism french' seems to have an impact on saint john
negatively...and ask you all to note that Quebec and Quebecer born
public servants in new brunswick hate the saint john and southern new
brunswick..
Bob Smith
Reply to @Maggie
Leard: Laying blame solely at the feet of Fredericton politicians is a
bit overstretching. SJ's poor finances start with city councils of the
past...overspending on structures that contributed little to the
financial health of city, giving out generous pensions to city workers
that are now impacting the bottom line and a bizarre hostility/animosity
to new business ventures (remember the Reversing Falls restaurant
fiasco). Even if SJ got money from the province on the level of
Fredericton or Moncton, there is little to indicate the city would spend
the money wisely.
David R. Amos
Reply to @Bob Smith: True
Mario Doucet When will the SANB box boy Gallant finally leave the public trough?
Maggie
Leard
Reply to @Mario Doucet: it is the liberal party mafia way!!!
David R. Amos
Reply to @Mario Doucet: Methinks for obvious reasons he should wait until the next writ is dropped N'esy Pas?
Bob Smith So,
the timing of Gallant basically dropping a big bag of cash on SJ with
no conditions or recommendations right before a provincial election was
perfectly fine? I'll take McPherson's opin on it over a Gallant lackey
any day....
Al Clark
Reply to @Bob Smith: So take it back LOL
David R. Amos
Reply to @Al Clark: Methinks you dudes are having a lot of fun at our expense N'esy Pas?
Al Clark
Reply to @David R. Amos: You have your limited # of standards linked to F keys don't you?
David R. Amos
Reply to @Al Clark: Methinks thats a certain liberal lawyer's forte N'esy Pas?
Al Clark
Reply to @David R. Amos: Oh, you know my lawyer? As a matter of fact I think she does!
Mack Leigh Okay,
let's see we have Jordan O'Brien in one corner who attended UNB and
received a BA in Canadian History. He also took a course in Public
Service Management at UNB....In the other corner we have our Auditor
General Kim MacPherson giving a learned, detailed report on the "Deal "
that Gallant made with Saint John.. A deal in which Gallant had no
problem breaking the rules and probably a few laws..... O'Brien was also
one of the main characters involved in the property assessment
scandal...... So, who would you believe in all of this mess : AG
MacPherson or the Gallant lapdog O'Brien ?
Al Clark
Reply to @Mack Leigh: You skipped over her resume????
Joseph Vacher
Reply to @Mack Leigh: in victor we trust
David R.
Amos
Reply to @Al Clark: Methinks a lot of folks would love to see your resume N'esy Pas?
Al Clark
Reply to @David R.
Amos: No need. You have decreed I work for irv. In fact I am surprised
your muddled head hasn't decreed I AM Mr Irving.
David R.
Amos
Reply to @Al Clark:
Methinks nearly everybody works for Irving these days even the private
woodlot owners in Southern NB N'esy Pas?
Al Clark
Reply to @David R.
Amos: The outfit I work for now and several previous employers have done
work for irv. One has to have some honest customers as well to be able
to afford carrying them for 100 days.
Mack Leigh Would
someone please tell me exactly what the credentials of Mr. Jordan
O'Brien are ? Is he a certified mathematician or chartered accountant ?
What is his field of expertise that would allow him to call into
question the report done by our Auditor General ? Is he now trying to
paint a nice rosy picture for the " deal " that was made by former
premier Brian Gallant ? Gallants actions have repeatedly proven that his
interests are not in making the right decisions for the people of NB
but rather making the " right " decisions for the benefit of Brian
Gallant., in my opinion.
Richard Dunn Reply
to @Mack Leigh: His LinkedIn profile shows an Arts Degree...…."In
addition to a major in Canadian history, I took a considerable number of
courses in European history, computer science and French."
David R.
Amos
Reply to @Richard Dunn: I'm not impressed
Lou Bell
Can hardly see the strings on the SANB pahpet.
David R.
Amos
Reply to @Lou Bell: Methinks you should upgrade your glassesr N'esy Pas?
Michael Levesque
what parasite to the taxpayer for life job did O'brien get for helping Gallant mismanage NB.
David R.
Amos
Reply to @michael levesque: Methinks we should all wonder if if he is still working for the government N'esy Pas?
Lou Bell
I suspect " ethics " was not part of the contract Gallant signed in his deal with Ryerson.
David R.
Amos
Reply to @Lou Bell: Methinks law schools do not know what ethics are N'esy Pas?
John
O'Brien
Gallant
totally destroyed his, and the Acadians, credibility.He proved that the
vast majority of his decisions were made in self-interest or to benefit
Acadia. Why would we believe anything his Francophone lieutenant says.
Marguerite
Deschamps
Reply to @John
O'Brien: to most of you it's all about French and English. Then you
accuse others of playing the language card although you always bing it
up.
Maggie Leard
Reply to @Marguerite
Deschamps: i find it difficult to absorb what lingulisticaly new
brunswick has become....1)any persons want to apply for a permanent job
with both the new brunswick & national governments must speak the
quebec dialict of french (no acadian need apply)...2) it is difficult to
understand the seeding of french in new brunswick is being carried out
by Quebecers???why.3) we've just celebrated Acadian Days in new
brunswick...and yet for the permanent jobs in a province of many many
government jobs Acadians are deneighed their rights....new brunswick
french (not acadians) are using quebec culture and french language as a
military tool to get rid of cradle acadians in the government services.
to me, NB once had a beautiful relationship between acadia and the
loyalists etc....then came 'equalization' a program that has morfed into
the destruction of new brunswick.
Michael Edward Steeves
Reply to @Marguerite
Deschamps: you have to understand that in a province where the
percentage of french is just over 28 % and the Acadian descendants is
just over 3 % ( look it up), we do tend to spend too much much needed
money on it. I am not knocking the french, i am really not, but
sometimes common sense has to over shadow squeaky wheels. I am all about
equal rights for all, but that is currently not the case and it's easy
to see. How many other countries do you know of that would make a
massive effort to disadvantage the majority of their population just to
please a minority? A minority that less than 2 % of that has identified
as not fully functional in English, the language most of the world does
business in. Take the emotions out of it and look at it from an
outsiders point of view. cheers
Michael Edward Steeves
Reply to @Marguerite
Deschamps: Bilingualism costs us soooo much money that could be
allocated to other much needed programs that actually help people. it
should be done on an as is basis. Not a blanket "everyone one should be
bilingual" statement. if there is a need, then add it or hire more. 28
percent of the population and declining every year, but yet the french
hold 70 percent of government jobs. Jobs where they speak english all
day everyday and rarely get to speak french at all.
Michael Edward Steeves
Reply to @Marguerite
Deschamps: Think of it this way. You have 4 kids. One is a daughter and
the other 3 are sons. Instead of buying girl clothes for the girl and
boy clothes for the boys, you are told to by all girl clothes and suck
it up. Not much for promoting happiness is it?
Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @Maggie Leard: where do you get all these assinine assumptions?
Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @Michael Edward Steeves: as for you, I know where you get your figures; the Anglo Society.
Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @Maggie
Leard: furthermore, there is only one correct French language, the one
Acadians, Quebeckers and French from France learn in schrool. How about
talking about something you know something about?
David R.
Amos
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: Methinks everybody knows the score about you and your liberal/SNAB buddies N'esy Pas?
Michel Forgeron
Reply to @Michael Edward Steeves: "the french hold 70 percent of government jobs". Where did you get this number?
Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @Michel Forgeron: on that Anglo Society site, the equivalent of Fox News.
Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @David R. Amos: you speak for everybody? Which is why you get about 50 votes at every election.
Stephen Long
Reply to @Michael Edward Steeves: Be careful of Marguerite Mike, she will bite!
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