🔴LIVE PUBLIC ORDER EMERGENCY COMISSION INQUIRY Day 27 - November 21, 2022
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CSIS head says he supported invoking the Emergencies Act last winter to address convoy protests
David Vigneault says other tools were 'just not enough to address the situation'
CSIS Director David Vigneault testified before the Public Order Emergency Commission Monday and sat for an in-camera session on Nov. 5. A summary of that behind-closed-doors hearing was entered into evidence at the inquiry.
Vigneault told the in-camera hearing that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau asked him for his advice at the end of a Feb. 13 meeting of the Incident Response Group, during which the Emergencies Act was discussed.
By that point, anti-COVID-19 mandate protests had gridlocked downtown Ottawa for weeks and had spread to border crossings.
"Vigneault explained that, based on both his understanding that the Emergencies Act definition of threat to the security of Canada was broader than the CSIS Act, as well as based on his opinion of everything he had seen to that point, he advised the Prime Minister of his belief that it was indeed required to invoke the act," said the summary.
Police enforce an injunction against protesters in Ottawa on Feb. 19, 2022. (Evan Mitsui/CBC)
That evidence has become a key moment at the commission, which has been hearing testimony since mid-October. The commission has been tasked with determining whether the federal government met the legal threshold to invoke the Emergencies Act.
The commission heard previously that Vigneault didn't believe the self-styled Freedom Convoy constituted a threat to national security as defined by the CSIS Act.
On Monday, Vigneault expanded on that, adding that the agency's enabling legislation is narrow in scope.
During his testimony, Vigneault said that multiple factors — the fact that CSIS knew "ideologically motivated violent individuals" were interested in the convoy, the size of the crowds and the fact that police resources were being diverted — weighed into his advice to Trudeau to invoke the Emergencies Act.
"And the fact that there was an evolving operational plan by law enforcement that, at that point, had not yet been put in place to be able to deal with this situation," he added.
"All of these elements of unpredictability, based on my experience, having been around national security issues for quite a few years now, led me to believe that the regular tools were just not enough to address the situation."
Under the Emergencies Act, the federal cabinet must have reasonable grounds to believe a public order emergency exists — which the act defines as one that "arises from threats to the security of Canada that are so serious as to be a national emergency."
The act also describes a national emergency as an urgent and critical situation "that seriously endangers the lives, health or safety of Canadians and is of such proportions or nature as to exceed the capacity or authority of a province to deal with it."
The act then points back to CSIS's definition of such a threat — which cites serious violence against people or property "for the purpose of achieving a political, religious or ideological objective," espionage, foreign interference or the intent to overthrow the government by violence.
Vigneault "further explained that the [Emergencies Act] cannot be read in a manner that gives CSIS the exclusive authority to determine whether there exists a public order emergency, as this is the responsibility of the federal government," said the interview summary.
"Vigneault explained that, although section 16 of the [Emergencies Act] references the definition of a threat to the national security of Canada set out in section of the CSIS Act, the two statutes are concerned with distinct issues."
CCLA calls it a 'novel interpretation' of the law
Vigneault said his understanding that the Emergencies Act's definition of a "threat to the security of Canada" was broader than the one in the CSIS Act came about after he asked the federal Department of Justice for a legal interpretation.
A lawyer for the federal government said the government has not waived solicitor-client privilege over the invocation of the act.
"This, I think, is the crux of the issue," Vigneault said during testimony Monday. "In the context of the Emergencies Act, there was to be separate interpretation based on the confines of that act."
WATCH | 'It was a separate understanding': CSIS director on differences between Emergencies Act and CSIS Act
The Canadian Civil Liberties Association questioned the broader definition of threats to the security of Canada.
"The government's argument appears to be that the Emergencies Act doesn't mean what it says," CCLA director Cara Zwibel said in a media statement Monday.
"It is relying on this novel interpretation to justify its decision to invoke."
National security adviser says act should be updated
Clerk of the Privy Council Janice Charette, who recommended that Trudeau invoke the act, defended that advice during testimony on Friday.
She said she weighed CSIS's assessment with other factors.
WATCH | Lawyer for Ottawa residents gets into heated exchange with CSIS director during inquiry
"It's the combination of all of these things and the escalation of all these things which, taken together, were enough for me in my advice to the prime minister," Charette told the commission inquiry Friday.
"My view was that it met the tests. Others may not share my view."
Jody Thomas, the prime minister's national security and intelligence adviser, told the commission that she believes the definition of a "threat to security of Canada" under the terms of the Emergencies Act should be reconsidered to better reflect the times.
Vigneault and CSIS deputy director of operations Michelle Tessier also told the commission behind closed doors that it's time to update the definition of a national security threat under the CSIS Act.
"In today's environment we really need to be looking at the definition of threats to the security of Canada; it's more threats to Canada's national interests," says a summary of both their interviews.
"Updating the definition to match the expanding expectations from government for more information from the intelligence service, for example relating to economic security, research security and pandemic and health intelligence, because the definition in terms of threat currently can be quite narrow."
Commissioner Justice Paul Rouleau allowed CSIS to share some testimony and evidence privately with the inquiry to protect the service's methods of operation and sources.
Commissioner chides lawyer
Vigneault's appearance before the committee led to a number of heated exchanges — including one with Brendan Miller, a lawyer who represents some protest organizers.
Last week, Miller seized on Vigneault's statement that the protests did not constitute a threat to national security under the CSIS Act.
Following Vigneault's testimony on Monday, Miller turned to questions about Confederate and Nazi flags that were seen during the early days of the protests in Ottawa.
President
of the Queen’s Privy Council for Canada and Emergency Preparedness
Minister Bill Blair appears as a witness at the Public Order Emergency
Commission, Monday, November 21, 2022 in Ottawa. (Adrian Wyld/The Canadian Press)
Miller specifically asked Vigneault if CSIS identified a man who was seen at the Ottawa protest with a swastika. Vigneault responded that he wouldn't be able to provide further information about investigations in a public forum.
With his time running out, Miller suggested, with no evidence, that Vigneault knew that the man with the "Nazi flag" was Brian Fox of Enterprise Canada, a communications firm.
"I have not said anything of that respect," Vigneault replied. "I have not testified to that."
"You haven't testified to it, but you know it to be true, don't you?" Miller shot back as he was walking away from the podium.
Commissioner Rouleau chided Miller for the question, saying it was "not a fair statement."
Rouleau also criticized Miller for the way in which he asked the question as he was leaving the podium.
"Don't make statements back to the crowd as you leave the podium, please," Rouleau told Miller. "You're well aware of the appropriate way to conduct yourself."
Enterprise denied Miller's suggestion that Fox was carrying the flag during the protests, calling it an "unsubstantiated and deeply offensive accusation."
"There is no truth to this absurd and despicable accusation. Neither Brian Fox, nor anyone from Enterprise Canada was in attendance at the 'Freedom Convoy' protests in any capacity," a statement from the company said.
The statement goes on to say that Enterprise Canada and Fox plan to review their legal options and "take swift action to defend against this unsubstantiated attack on the personal and professional reputation of Mr. Fox."
Witnesses this week
Emergency Preparedness Minister Bill Blair, the first cabinet minister to appear before the commission, defended the federal government's decision to invoke the act, saying the protests at border crossings elevated the situation to a national security threat.
A summary of an interview he gave to the commission in September was entered into evidence Monday.
"Though Ottawa was facing significant challenges, Minister Blair was of the view that Parliament was continuing to
function fairly well," it reads.
"What concerned him the most were the threats to the critical infrastructure of Canada's [ports of entry] caused by the border blockades."
As the week goes on, the commission is also expected to hear from:
- Public Safety Minister Marco Mendicino.
- Intergovernmental Affairs Minister Dominic LeBlanc.
- Justice Minister David Lametti.
- Defence Minister Anita Anand.
- Transport Minister Omar Alghabra.
- Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland.
- Prime Minister's Office staffers Katie Telford, Brian Clow and John Brodhead.
- Prime Minister Justin Trudeau
Trudeau has defended the decision to invoke the Emergencies Act, calling it a "measure of last resort."
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With files from the Canadian Press
Minister Blair 'embarrassed' by lack of police response to convoy protests, evidence shows
Texts between Blair, chief of staff, say he was concerned government looked 'weak and ineffective'
The text messages between Blair and his chief of staff were entered into evidence on Monday and also show the former Toronto police chief was concerned that the federal government looked "weak" due to the lack of action.
"I am embarrassed for my former profession. And worried for my government which is being made to look weak and ineffective," Blair said in a text message.
"I can't believe that I'm hoping [Ontario Premier] Doug Ford will save us."
Text messages between Blair and his chief of staff were entered into evidence at the Emergencies Act inquiry on Monday. (Public Order Emergency Commission exhibit)
Blair said Monday during his testimony that the text was "intemperate," but demonstrated his concerns about the protests expanding in front of Parliament Hill.
"Trust and confidence in the police is absolutely essential for them to do their job," Blair said. "I was very concerned about the impact that the apparent ineffectiveness of the police to deal with this was [having on] the public's confidence."
Blair said when it came to whose responsibility it was to address the protests in Ottawa from a policing standpoint, the public didn't differentiate between levels of government, though he said it ultimately was the province's responsibility.
The Ontario government declared a state of emergency on Feb. 11, weeks after the protests had arrived in Ottawa, which Blair said he was "hoping" for.
Disputes between Ontario and the federal government
In the past few weeks the commission has heard of friction between the Ontario and federal governments over how to address the protests in Ottawa and the blockade at the Ambassador Bridge in Windsor, Ont.
The Emergencies Act is only supposed to be invoked when — according to the wording of the law itself — a national emergency "cannot be effectively dealt with under any other law of Canada."
The inquiry heard that during a Feb. 8 private call with then-Ottawa mayor Jim Watson, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau accused Ontario Premier Doug Ford of hiding from his responsibilities during the convoy protests.
"Doug Ford has been hiding from his responsibility on it for political reasons, as you highlighted," Trudeau said, according to a readout of the call, which is not an exact transcript of the conversation.
"Important we don't let them get away from that."
A few weeks later, the commission heard from a senior Ontario government bureaucrat who alleged the federal government was trying to force the province to take the lead on ending the blockades.
Mario Di Tommaso, Ontario's deputy solicitor general, told the inquiry about a meeting during which Jody Thomas, the prime minister's national security adviser, asked whether the provincial government would take a more active role in the Ottawa protests if they were happening in Kingston, Ont.
"This question was all about, from my perception, the federal government wanting to wash its hands of this entire thing," Di Tommaso said.
Ford has said he supported the federal government's decision to invoke the Act.
The first two weeks of the commission focused on the police response to the protest. Multiple officers with the Ottawa Police Service (OPS) and the Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) described chaos and confusion in Ottawa after protesters arrived the first weekend and parked big rigs and other vehicles on downtown streets.
Despite receiving several early warnings, Peter Sloly — who was OPS chief during the protests — told the commission that even in "hindsight," he doesn't think the intelligence he was getting before the protest rolled into town suggested that protesters would dig in and remain.
The commission has heard that OPP sent the Ottawa police intelligence reports warning of "fringe ideologies" active within the protest movement, and alerting the OPS that organizers did not have an exit strategy to end the protest.
Still, the Ottawa police planned for the protesters to stay for only one weekend, the commission heard. They stayed for nearly a month.
Both OPP and RCMP officials have testified that they had no idea how OPS planned to end the demonstrations.
Exchange between Blair, Alberta minister
This is not the first time Blair's text messages have been raised during the inquiry.
Text messages entered into evidence earlier this month showed a testy exchange between Blair and Alberta Municipal Affairs Minister Ric McIver.
At the time, the province was struggling with a blockade near a southern Alberta village. People protesting COVID-19 restrictions used large trucks and other vehicles to block commercial traffic to and from the U.S. at Coutts between Jan. 29 and Feb. 14.
About a week into the blockade, Alberta turned to Ottawa to ask about the possibility of using Canadian Armed Forces tow trucks to remove the blockade vehicles after local tow operators rejected RCMP requests.
Some of Alberta Municipal Affairs Minister Ric McIver's texts were made public as part of the Emergencies Act inquiry. (Jason Franson/The Canadian Press)
In a Feb. 5 letter to the federal government, McIver said the RCMP had "exhausted all local and regional options to alleviate the week-long service disruptions."
In a Feb. 8 text, Blair told McIver he had conveyed his message to Defence Minister Anita Anand.
"Any update?" McIver said in a text to Blair two days later.
After 11 days of silence, McIver followed up that message with another one: "Still no answer." Blair then responded.
"You may be aware that we invoked the [Emergencies] Act," Blair told McIver in a text exchange. "Which addressed the tow truck issue quite effectively."
McIver said he was "disappointed" with the response.
"We received no help until after the Coutts issue was resolved and you know that," the provincial minister wrote in a text to Blair. "Disappointed to hear you say otherwise."
Blair was the first of a number of cabinet ministers expected to testify at the commission this week.
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There ya go CBC, fixed that headline for ya
CSIS head says he told Trudeau invoking the Emergencies Act was required last winter
Trudeau, cabinet ministers making highly anticipated appearances at Emergencies Act inquiry this week
CSIS Director David Vigneault made the comments during an in-camera session of the Public Order Emergency Commission on Nov. 5. A summary of that hearing was entered into evidence Monday as Vigneault and other senior intelligence officials testify before Commissioner Paul Rouleau.
Vigneault told the in-camera hearing that Trudeau asked him for his advice at the end of a Feb. 13 meeting of the Incident Response Group during which the Emergencies Act was discussed.
By that point, anti-COVID-19 mandate protests had gridlocked downtown Ottawa for weeks and had spread to border crossings.
"Vigneault explained that, based on both his understanding that the Emergencies Act definition of threat to the security of Canada was broader than the CSIS Act, as well as based on his opinion of everything he had seen to that point, he advised the Prime Minister of his belief that it was indeed required to invoke the act," said the summary.
Canadian
Security Intelligence Service Director David Vigneault responds to a
question from counsel as he testifies at the Public Order Emergency
Commission, Monday, Nov. 21, 2022 in Ottawa. (Adrian Wyld/The Canadian Press)
The commission heard previously that Vigneault didn't believe the self-styled Freedom Convoy constituted a threat to national security under the CSIS Act.
On Monday, Vigneault expanded on that, adding that the agency's enabling legislation is narrow in scope.
The commission has been tasked with determining whether the federal government met the legal threshold to invoke the Emergencies Act.
Under the law, the federal cabinet must have reasonable grounds to believe a public order emergency exists — which the act defines as one that "arises from threats to the security of Canada that are so serious as to be a national emergency."
The act also describes a national emergency as an urgent and critical situation "that seriously endangers the lives, health or safety of Canadians and is of such proportions or nature as to exceed the capacity or authority of a province to deal with it."
The act then points back to CSIS's definition of such a threat — which cites serious violence against people or property "for the purpose of achieving a political, religious or ideological objective," espionage, foreign interference or the intent to overthrow the government by violence.
During cross examination, Vigneault said he asked the federal Justice Department for a legal interpretation and was told the Emergencies Act definition of threat to the security of Canada was broader than what is in the CSIS Act.
Vigneault "further explained that the [Emergencies Act] cannot be read in a manner that gives CSIS the exclusive authority to determine whether there exists a public order emergency, as this is the responsibility of the federal government," said the interview summary.
"Vigneault explained that, although section 16 of the [Emergencies Act] references the definition of a threat to the national security of Canada set out in section of the CSIS Act, the two statutes are concerned with distinct issues."
WATCH | 'It was a separate understanding': CSIS director on differences between Emergencies Act and CSIS Act
Jody Thomas, the prime minister's security and intelligence adviser, told the commission that she believes the definition "threat to security of Canada" under the terms of the Emergencies Act should be reconsidered to better reflect the times.
Vigneault and CSIS deputy director of operations Michelle Tessier also told the commission behind closed doors that it's time to update the definition of a national security threat under the CSIS Act.
"In today's environment we really need to be looking at the definition of threats to the security of Canada; it's more threats to Canada's national interests," says a summary of both their interviews.
"Updating the definition to match the expanding expectations from government for more information from the intelligence service, for example relating to economic security, research security and pandemic and health intelligence, because the definition in terms of threat currently can be quite narrow."
Clerk of the Privy Council Janice Charette, who recommended that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau invoke the act, defended that advice during testimony on Friday.
She said she weighed CSIS's assessment with other factors.
WATCH | Lawyer for Ottawa residents gets into heated exchange with CSIS director during inquiry
"It's the combination of all of these things and the escalation of all these things which, taken together, were enough for me in my advice to the prime minister," Charette told the commission inquiry Friday.
"My view was that it met the tests. Others may not share my view."
Witnesses this week
Vigneault and other intelligence officials are testifying before the Public Order Emergency Commission Monday as the inquiry enters its final week of hearings.
Prime Minister Justin Trudeau makes his way to an announcement in Ottawa on Friday, Oct. 7, 2022. (Adrian Wyld/The Canadian Press)
Emergency Preparedness Minister Bill Blair will testify later today.
As the week goes on, the commission is also expected to hear from:
- Public Safety Minister Marco Mendicino.
- Intergovernmental Affairs Minister Dominic LeBlanc.
- Justice Minister David Lametti.
- Defence Minister Anita Anand.
- Transport Minister Omar Alghabra.
- Finance Minister Chrystia Freeland.
- Prime Minister's Office staffers Katie Telford, Brian Clow and John Brodhead.
- Prime Minsiter Justin Trudeau
Trudeau has defended the decision to invoke the Emergencies Act, calling it a "measure of last resort."
Here is what the commission has heard so far.
Testimony describes police dysfunction
The first two weeks of the commission focused on the police response to the protest. Multiple officers with the Ottawa Police Service (OPS) and the Ontario Provincial Police (OPP) described chaos and confusion in Ottawa after protesters arrived the first weekend and parked big rigs and other vehicles on downtown streets.
Despite receiving several early warnings, Peter Sloly — OPS chief during the protests — told the commission that even in "hindsight," he doesn't think the intelligence he was getting before the protest convoy rolled into town suggested that protesters would dig in and remain.
The commission has heard that OPP sent the Ottawa police intelligence reports warning of "fringe ideologies" active within the protest movement, and alerting the OPS that organizers did not have an exit strategy to end the protest.
Former
Ottawa police chief Peter Sloly appears for his second day of testimony
at the Public Order Emergency Commission in Ottawa on Oct. 31, 2022. (Adrian Wyld/The Canadian Press)
Still, the Ottawa police planned for the protesters to stay for only one weekend. They stayed for nearly a month.
"I think we were floundering a little bit in terms of our staffing, in terms of our ability to really take stock of what was going on and then move forward and come up with a plan to get out of it," Patricia Ferguson, acting deputy chief of the OPS, told the commission inquiry. (Sloly resigned as Ottawa's police chief in mid-February.)
Both OPP and RCMP officials have testified that they had no idea how OPS planned to end the demonstrations.
"We couldn't read their minds as to what their plan was because there was no plan," said Supt. Craig Abrams of the OPP.
Thomas also testified about the actions of the country's top Mountie.
RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki told the commission inquiry that on the eve of the federal government invoking the Emergencies Act, she told Public Safety Minister Marco Mendicino's chief of staff that she felt police had not exhausted all legal tools to end the protest.
But Thomas said Lucki failed to pass that information on during a meeting with senior officials on Feb. 13.
"If there is useful or critical information, it needs to be provided, whether you are on the speaking list or not," said Thomas.
Thomas also said Lucki never notified the federal cabinet that police had firmed up an operational plan to end the blockades.
"I don't recall cabinet being informed of that," she said. "We had been told there was a plan multiple times."
Disputes between Ontario and the federal government
The commission also has heard of friction between the Ontario and federal governments over how to address the protests in Ottawa and the blockade at the Ambassador Bridge in Windsor, Ont.
The Emergencies Act is only supposed to be invoked when a national emergency "cannot be effectively dealt with under any other law of Canada."
The inquiry heard that during a Feb. 8 private call with then-Ottawa mayor Jim Watson, Trudeau accused Ontario Premier Doug Ford of hiding from his responsibilities during the Freedom Convoy protests.
WATCH | What did the Emergencies Act inquiry learn last week?
"Doug Ford has been hiding from his responsibility on it for political reasons, as you highlighted," Trudeau said according to a readout of the call, which is not an exact transcript of the conversation.
"Important we don't let them get away from that."
A few weeks later, the commission heard from a senior Ontario government bureaucrat who alleged the federal government was trying to force the province to take the lead on ending the blockades.
Mario Di Tommaso, Ontario's deputy solicitor general, told the inquiry about a meeting during which Thomas asked whether the provincial government would take a more active role in the Ottawa protests if they were happening in Kingston, Ont.
Ontario
Premier Doug Ford looks on as Prime Minister Justin Trudeau responds to
a question at Nokia’s Canadian headquarters on Oct. 17, 2022 in Ottawa. (Adrian Wyld/The Canadian Press)
"This question was all about, from my perception, the federal government wanting to wash its hands of this entire thing," Di Tommaso said.
Ford has said he supported the federal government's decision to invoke the Act.
What happens next
The commission began hearing testimony in mid-October and wraps up on Friday. The inquiry will then move into a policy phase, during which it will host roundtables and hear from experts and policy makers on issues related to its mandate.
Commissioner Rouleau's final report must be tabled in Parliament by Feb. 20.
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🔴LIVE PUBLIC ORDER EMERGENCY COMISSION INQUIRY Day 27 - November 21, 2022
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MUH CSIS
LATER
a judicial trial held in public with the intention of influencing or satisfying public opinion, rather than of ensuring justice
MY LOVE, YOU A LIE! Ottawa, Ontario
The Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, today announced the reappointment of:
David Vigneault, as Director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, effective June 19, 2022.
Mr. Vigneault brings a wealth of experience from the intelligence and security community to the role, including almost two decades as a senior public servant at the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, the Canada Border Services Agency, and the Privy Council Office.
David Vigneault
Education
Master of Arts, Political Science, Université de Montréal
Bachelor of Arts, Political Science, Université Laval
Professional Experience
Since June 2017
Director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service
2013 - 2017
Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Security and Intelligence, Privy Council Office
2010 - 2013
Associate Vice-President, Programs Branch, Canada Border Services Agency
2009 - 2010
Assistant Director, Intelligence, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
2006 - 2009
Assistant Director, Secretariat, Canadian Security Intelligence Service
2004 - 2006
Director, Transnational Security, Communications Security Establishment Canada
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/csis-speech-david-vigneault-1.5906665
State actors have done 'significant harm' to Canadian companies, says head of spy agency
CSIS director David Vigneault names Russia and China as countries of concern
The head of Canada's spy agency said today Canadian companies in almost all sectors of the economy have been targeted by hostile foreign actors — and named Russia and China as two of his main sources of concern.
"The threat from hostile activity by state actors in all its forms represents a significant danger to Canada's prosperity and sovereignty," said David Vigneault, director of the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, in his first public speech in three years.
"Our investigations reveal that this threat has unfortunately caused significant harm to Canadian companies."
Vigneault said Canada's biopharmaceutical, health, artificial intelligence, quantum computing, ocean technology and aerospace sectors face particularly severe threat activity because they work largely within academia and small start-ups.
"They have been compromised and have suffered losses from human and cyber-enabled threats," he said in a virtual speech to the Centre for International Governance Innovation.
"CSIS has observed persistent and sophisticated state-sponsored threat activity for many years now and we continue to see a rise in the frequency and sophistication of this threat activity."
Vigneault's speech builds off his 2018 address sounding the alarm over economic espionage — a growing source of concern for the intelligence agency, which historically has focused on countering violent extremism.
WATCH | Head of CSIS on foreign states threatening national security
"While violent extremism remains an ongoing threat to our safety and a significant preoccupation for CSIS, the greatest strategic threat to Canada's national security comes from hostile activities by foreign states," Vigneault said today.
"Historically, spies were focused on obtaining Canadian political, military and diplomatic secrets. While these secrets are still attractive, today our adversaries are more focused on intellectual property and advanced research held on computer systems in small start-ups, corporate boardrooms, or university labs across the country."
State actors target employees, students
The director singled out Russia and China as bad actors — another shift for the intelligence community in the past few years.
"It is no secret that we are most concerned about the actions by the governments of countries like Russia and China. But we should also not discount that threat activity evolves and can originate from anywhere in the world," he said.
Hostile actors are known to target employees, former employees, students, professors, contractors and business associates to gain access to an organization's IT systems, he said.
"An insider acting at the behest of a threat actor can compromise a system and cause damage, or open a backdoor to allow access from across the street or across the ocean. They can steal information outright, and walk it out the door on a flash drive," Vigneault said.
While Vigneault has talked about the covert actions of Russia and China in front of parliamentary committees, his comments today mark the first time he has named the two countries in a speech.
WATCH | Head of CSIS says he's 'most concerned' by the actions of Russia and China
No intelligence briefing happened on Chinese funding of candidates: Trudeau
Allegations of Chinese interference in 2019 election to be probed by parliamentary committee
A Global News report earlier this month cited unnamed sources who claimed Trudeau was informed last January that China was trying to interfere in Canadian politics, including by funding at least 11 candidates in the 2019 federal election.
The Liberals have been hammered in the House of Commons by opposition MPs demanding to know who the candidates are and what Canada is doing about the interference.
None of the MPs who responded, including Deputy Prime Minister Chrystia Freeland, provided any substantive response beyond insisting Canada's elections were free and fair. Nor did any of them deny having information about any candidates being funded by China.
- Have a question or something to say? Email: ask@cbc.ca or join us live in the comments now.
But during remarks at the end of the Francophonie Summit in Tunisia on Sunday, Trudeau said the government hasn't identified the candidates publicly because he doesn't know who they are. He said he only learned of that specific allegation from the media.
"Let me be clear, I do not have any information, nor have I been briefed on any federal candidates receiving any money from China," Trudeau said.
He later stressed that he gets "briefed up regularly from our intelligence and security officials" and none have ever provided any information to him about candidates receiving money.
On Nov. 14, the Liberals backed a motion brought by the Conservatives at a House of Commons committee to expand an ongoing study of foreign interference to include the news report that Trudeau and other ministers were briefed on Chinese government efforts to "actively influence the 2019 election."
Committee to probe foreign interference
The motion does not specifically mention funding of candidates, but does reference the news report that did.
The Liberals say they supported the motion because the story raised questions that officials should answer at the committee. The motion calls for the government to provide "all relevant" briefing notes and other documents related to the issue within the next two weeks.
"I have asked the officials to examine these media reports and give all possible answers, everything they can, to the parliamentary committee that's looking into this," Trudeau said Sunday.
Trudeau was speaking at the end of a 10-day overseas trip that included four international summits and attempts by Canada to expand its influence and economic ties in Asia despite a frosty relationship with China.
The chill on Canada-China ties was apparent over the trip, particularly at the G20 summit in Bali where Trudeau said he did speak to President Xi Jinping on the sidelines about "interference with our citizens."
The
Prime Minister's Office released this photo of Trudeau and Chinese
President Xi Jinping speaking face to face on the sidelines of the G20
Summit in Bali, Indonesia, on Nov. 15. The day after that conversation,
Xi accused Trudeau of inappropriately leaking details of their talk to
the media. (Prime Minister's Office)
Xi upbraided Trudeau in front of Canadian media, accusing him of improperly leaking details of that conversation to the press. It is not unusual for the Trudeau government to provide reporters with basic details on the topics discussed between the prime minister and other foreign leaders, but Xi took issue with it.
Trudeau told Xi that people believe in openness and transparency in Canada.
Trudeau would not confirm to media whether he specifically discussed election interference with Xi, saying only he raised interference in general.
On Nov. 16 in Bali, he also said a special commission was struck before the 2019 election to watch for and analyze any possible interference.
"Both for the 2019 and 2021 elections, those experts were confident that the elections in Canada unfolded in the right way and that Canadians can be reassured of that," he said. "Their reports are clear, so Canadians can and must be reassured that yes, foreign interference is an issue in a lot of different ways, as we've seen all around the world, but the integrity of Canada's elections have not been compromised."
Foreign enemies 'increasingly targeting Canada,' Privy Council warns new minister
Memo says interference beyond the electoral cycle will require 'focused attention'
The heavily redacted package of briefing notes, drafted for the New Brunswick MP around the time of his swearing-in last November, also points to potential "gaps" in the way Canada responded to the fall election.
As part of his new job at the cabinet table, Leblanc is responsible for supporting Canada's democratic institutions — a role that had its own ministry last session.
While the briefing document is filled with bureaucratic jargon, the warning jumps off the page.
"Foreign adversaries and competitors are increasingly targeting Canada in order to advance their own economic and national security interests," says the 150-page briefing binder, obtained through access to information.
"Canada, like the majority of Western democracies, is a target of foreign state efforts to interfere with or damage our democratic processes (cyber and non cyber)."
"The word 'increasing' is actually very important here," said former national security analyst Stephanie Carvin, now an associate professor at Carleton University in Ottawa.
"It suggests that there may be some metrics by which they're measuring these things to suggest that, in fact, there's more attacks in new ways, perhaps even novel attacks that we're seeing. So that is something that jumps out to me in this report."
The redacted briefing note doesn't name the foreign adversaries.
In the lead-up to the Oct. 21 election, sources told CBC News that Canada's intelligence services were carefully monitoring attempts by six countries — China, India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran and Venezuela — to influence the federal election. Top Canadian officials also were warned last year that China and India could try to use their links to diaspora communities in Canada to advance their own agendas.
Traditional spying still 'the greatest danger': CSIS
Carvin said those countries are likely still on the list of engaged adversaries, along with Russia and other states in the Middle East.
"Really, there's a range of interests that foreign actors are interested in. They're interested in targeting our energy sector, oil and gas. They're also interested in just discrediting our democracy and democratic processes," she said.
"In some ways, [they want to] just whip up anger and dissent about a number of issues to get Canadians angry at each other."
As
part of his new job at the cabinet table, Dominic Leblanc is tasked
with supporting Canada’s democratic institutions, a role that had its
own ministry last session. (Nicolas Steinbach/Radio-Canada)
John Townsend, a spokesperson for the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, said that over the years CSIS has seen multiple instances of foreign states targeting specific communities in Canada through human intelligence operations, the use of state-sponsored or foreign-influenced media and cyberattacks.
"Traditional interference by foreign espionage remains the greatest danger, but interference using cyber means continues to be a growing concern," he said in an email to CBC.
In 2018, CSIS Director David Vigneault gave a speech to the Economic Club of Canada pointing out that the scale, speed, range and impact of foreign interference has grown as a result of the internet.
'Gaps' in election response
In an attempt to prevent foreign meddling, the federal government set up an internal team — the "critical election incident public protocol panel" — to publicly sound the alarm if it saw evidence the October federal election was being undermined. It never did.
In the days immediately after the federal election, government officials said they did detect attempts to spread misinformation and disinformation during the election campaign — but not at a level high enough to trigger a public warning.
Ottawa also set up a special task force, known as SITE, which brought together Canada's national security and intelligence agencies: CSIS, the Communications Security Establishment and the RCMP.
Both teams met regularly throughout the election. The security and intelligence community provided several threat briefings to political parties and ran tabletop exercises, according to the documents.
The briefing binder mentions "remaining gaps" in the way Canada responded to the election, but the examples were blacked out in the redacted pages.
A declassifed report is expected in the coming months.
The briefing package told LeBlanc that, given the pressing timeline of the campaign, most of the government's pre-election pro-democracy initiatives focused exclusively on the election itself, "leaving broader issues of countering interference in Canada's democratic institutions — i.e. public servants and government, politicians and political parties, media, the judiciary and others — aside.
"Interference in democratic institutions beyond the electoral cycle will require focused attention."
A spokesperson for CSE, Canada's foreign signal intelligence agency, said threats continue to change over time.
"Traditional hostile foreign threats have been persistent over the years, but they are now taking advantage of evolutions in technology," said Evan Koronewski.
"However, as these threats evolve, so do our abilities to detect them and take preventative action."
Disinformation should still be a source of concern, says the government memo, but fact-checking and traditional journalism have been helpful so far in debunking and correcting misinformation.
"While these efforts have been sufficient up to this point, a more fractured and divided Canada could make countering misinformation and disinformation more difficult."
"I think Canadians should always be concerned," said Carvin. "What we've seen in the past, say in 2016, is not what we saw in 2019. It might not be what we see in the future. Canada isn't immune to these trends."
LeBlanc was not available for an interview.
"We will continue to be vigilant in combatting any threat. Ensuring the security of our democratic processes is a priority for our government," said a spokesperson for his office.
From: Premier of Ontario | Premier ministre de l’Ontario <Premier@ontario.ca>
Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2018 01:23:05 +0000
Subject: Automatic reply: I know for certain that Pierre-Yves Bourduas
and the lawyer Liliana.Longo and many other cops must remeber Barry
Winters and his old buddy Dean Roger Ray N'esy Pas?
To: David Amos <david.raymond.amos333@gmail.
Thank you for your email. Your thoughts, comments and input are greatly valued.
You can be assured that all emails and letters are carefully read,
reviewed and taken into consideration.
There may be occasions when, given the issues you have raised and the
need to address them effectively, we will forward a copy of your
correspondence to the appropriate government official. Accordingly, a
response may take several business days.
Thanks again for your email.
______
Merci pour votre courriel. Nous vous sommes très reconnaissants de
nous avoir fait part de vos idées, commentaires et observations.
Nous tenons à vous assurer que nous lisons attentivement et prenons en
considération tous les courriels et lettres que nous recevons.
Dans certains cas, nous transmettrons votre message au ministère
responsable afin que les questions soulevées puissent être traitées de
la manière la plus efficace possible. En conséquence, plusieurs jours
ouvrables pourraient s’écouler avant que nous puissions vous répondre.
Merci encore pour votre courriel.
From: David Amos <david.raymond.amos333@gmail.
Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2018 21:22:57 -0400
Subject: I know for certain that Pierre-Yves Bourduas and the lawyer
Liliana.Longo and many other cops must remeber Barry Winters and his
old buddy Dean Roger Ray N'esy Pas?
To: py@pysafety.ca, gversailles@merlodavidson.ca,
Hon.ralph.goodale@canada.ca, washington.field@ic.fbi.gov,
Boston.Mail@ic.fbi.gov, clare.barry@justice.gc.ca,
Gib.vanErt@scc-csc.ca, andrew.scheer@parl.gc.ca,
maxime.bernier@parl.gc.ca, Erin.Weir@parl.gc.ca,
bill.pentney@justice.gc.ca, jan.jensen@justice.gc.ca,
Nathalie.Drouin@justice.gc.ca, Hon.Chrystia.Freeland@canada.
Jody.Wilson-Raybould@parl.gc.
attorneygeneral@ontario.ca, matthew.giovinazzo@ontario.ca,
martin.gaudet@fredericton.ca, Leanne.Fitch@fredericton.ca,
ian.fahie@rcmp-grc.gc.ca, premier@ontario.ca,
daniel.gosselin@cas-satj.gc.ca
Bruce.Preston@cas-satj.gc.ca, Beatriz.Winter@cas-satj.gc.ca,
warren.mcbeath@rcmp-grc.gc.ca, Gilles.Moreau@forces.gc.ca,
Jonathan.Vance@forces.gc.ca, Gilles.Blinn@rcmp-grc.gc.ca,
mark.vespucci@ci.irs.gov, Mark.Blakely@rcmp-grc.gc.ca,
Dominic.Cardy@gnb.ca, greg.byrne@gnb.ca, Gerald.Butts@pmo-cpm.gc.ca,
pm@pm.gc.ca, Katie.Telford@pmo-cpm.gc.ca, David.Coon@gnb.ca,
robert.gauvin@gnb.ca, kris.austin@gnb.ca, Gilles.Cote@gnb.ca,
dan.bussieres@gnb.ca, oldmaison@yahoo.com, andre@jafaust.com,
jbosnitch@gmail.com, birgitta@this.is, birgittajoy@gmail.com,
editor@wikileaks.org, ed.pilkington@guardian.co.uk,
djtjr@trumporg.com, Beverley.Busson@sen.parl.gc.ca
Guy.Bujold@crcc-ccetp.gc.ca, Lesley.McCoy@crcc-ccetp.gc.ca,
Karen.Leibovici@crcc-ccetp.gc.
Cc: "David.Raymond.Amos" <David.Raymond.Amos@gmail.com>
"Liliana.Longo" <Liliana.Longo@rcmp-grc.gc.ca>
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Amos" <motomaniac333@gmail.com>
To: "Gary.Rhodes" <Gary.Rhodes@rcmp-grc.gc.ca>, "rod.knecht"
<rod.knecht@edmontonpolice.ca>
<Dale.McGowan@rcmp-grc.gc.ca>, "deanr0032" <deanr0032@hotmail.com>,
"sunrayzulu" <sunrayzulu@shaw.ca>, tiredofamosyup@yahoo.ca, "David
Amos" <david.raymond.amos@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 12:09:11 AM
Subject: Fwd: Fw: Please press print on this attachment and give it to MacKay
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Amos" <motomaniac333@gmail.com>
To: "Claude Aubin" <aubinc@cactuscom.com>; "pm" <pm@pm.gc.ca>;
"marc.garneau.a1" <marc.garneau.a1@parl.gc.ca>; "justin.trudeau.a1"
<justin.trudeau.a1@parl.gc.ca>
<presse@philippecouillard.com>
<meerang.rb@gmail.com>; <media@georgetakach.ca>; <info@georgetakach.ca>;
<info@martincauchon.ca>; <media@martincauchon.ca>;
<policy.karenforcanada@gmail.
<media@davidbertschi.ca>; <info@pierremoreau.ca>
Cc: <peter.penashue@parl.gc.ca>; <Darcey@metisonline.ca>; <jriche@innu.ca>;
<trussell@nunatukavut.ca>; <minister@aadnc-aandc.gc.ca>;
<ministre@ec.gc.ca>; <Marjory.LeBreton@pco-bcp.gc.
<DuaneM@metisnation.ca>; <info@pco-bcp.gc.ca>;
<peter.penashue@pco-bcp.gc.ca>
<brycefequet@
Amos" <david.raymond.amos@gmail.com>
<ppalmater@politics.ryerson.ca
<appa@sen.parl.gc.ca>; <bcm@international.gc.ca>; "RBauer"
<RBauer@perkinscoie.com>; "bginsberg" <bginsberg@pattonboggs.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 23, 2013 7:57 PM
Subject: Yo Harper Just exactly how dumb is your French buddy Claude Aubin????
Just Dave
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----- Original Message -----
From: "David Amos" <motomaniac333@gmail.com>
To: "elisabeth.graff" <elisabeth.graff@gov.bc.ca>; "weststar"
<weststar@telus.net>; "premier" <premier@gov.bc.ca>
Cc: "David Amos" <david.raymond.amos@gmail.com>
<david.akin@sunmedia.ca>
Sent: Friday, March 15, 2013 9:33 PM
Subject: Fwd: DOD Auditor General and alan.white@cbc.ca
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: David Amos
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2013 11:29:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: DOD Auditor General and alan.white@cbc.ca
To: "alan.white@cbc.ca" <alan.white@cbc.ca>, oldmaison
<oldmaison@yahoo.com>, andre <andre@jafaust.com>
Just Dave
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Tiredofamos Yup <tiredofamosyup@yahoo.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 23:07:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Fw: Please press print on this attachment and give it to MacKay
To: "motomaniac333@gmail.com" <motomaniac333@gmail.com>
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: dean Ray <deanr0032@hotmail.com>
To: "tiredofamosyup@yahoo.ca" <tiredofamosyup@yahoo.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 11:55:47 PM
Subject: FW: Please press print on this attachment and give it to MacKay
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Amos" <motomaniac333@gmail.com>
To: "pm" <pm@pm.gc.ca>; <Office@tigta.treas.gov>; <RBauer@perkinscoie.com>;
<mark.vespucci@ci.irs.gov>; "Gilles.Moreau" <Gilles.Moreau@rcmp-grc.gc.ca>
<ron.klain@revolution.com>; <dboies@bsfllp.com>; <tolson@gibsondunn.com>;
<bginsberg@pattonboggs.com>; "ed.pilkington" <ed.pilkington@guardian.co.uk>
"news" <news@thetelegraph.com.au>; "leader" <leader@greenparty.ca>
Cc: "David Amos" <david.raymond.amos@gmail.com>
<rtalach@ledroitbeckett.com>; <gregory.craig@skadden.com>;
<Patrick.Fitzgerald@skadden.
Sent: Thursday, May 16, 2013 5:27 PM
Subject: Re Teddy Baby Olson was on Fox News today yapping about
Presidential enemies list as he represents the crooks in Koch Industries???
If anyone should know about such things it is Olson after all he assisted
Ashcroft and Bush against me
Hey
As Harper sits and bullshits his cohorts in the Council of Foreign
Relations in the Big Apple today I bet he was listening to what was
happening with Obama and the IRS and Holder and his DOJ minions
in Washington.
Hevery body and his dog knows Harper knew about my battles with
the US Treasury and Justice Depts way back when he was the boss of
the opposition in Canada's Parliament. Two simple files easily found on
the Internet cannot be argued.
http://qslspolitics.blogspot.
http://www.archive.org/
FOR FURTHER INFORMATION CONTACT: Office of Chief Counsel, Treasury.
Inspector General for Tax Administration, (202) 622-4068.
When Teddy bitches about polticians using the IRS to attack their enemies
because
he knows it true because he helped Bush the IRS against me when Obama was
just a
State Senator .
The proof was when I sent him the documents that came along with the letter
found on
page 13 of this old file Teddy Baby Olson quit as Solicitor General.
http://www.checktheevidence.
Harper and every body else knows It was no coincidence that I sent the
lawyers Olson
as Solicitior General, Ferguson as the co chair of the Federal Reserve Bank
and J Strom
Thurmond Jr the youngest US Attorney the same pile of documents on April
Fools Day 2004.
The sad but terrible truth is that legions of cops, lawyers polticians and
bureaucrats in Canada
and the USA knew about the US Secret Service coming to my home after dark on
April Fools
Day 2003 bearing false allegations of a presidential threat and threatening
to use their implied
right to use exta ordinary rendition against me as a non citizen less than
two weeks after the
needless War in Iraq began and no WMD were ever found.
You can bet dimes to dollars I called some Yankee Inspector Generals
(starting with 202 622 4068)
and reminded them that I am still alive and kicking and reminding the world
of their malicious
incompetence
Veritas Vincit
David Raymond Amos
902 800 0369
PS Below you can review some emails I sent you and your Yankee cohorts such
asTeddy Baby Olson
before Obama was reelected EH Harper? In truth I would rather settle in
confidence with Obama then
sue the Hell out of the CROWN and the Holy See Trust that the evil old Judge
Bastarache has known
why for a very long time.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Amos" <motomaniac333@gmail.com>
To: <sancanadahelp@gmail.com>; <rtalach@ledroitbeckett.com>; "mbastarache"
<mbastarache@heenan.ca>
Cc: "David Amos" <david.raymond.amos@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 3:15 PM
Subject: I just called from 902 800 0369
Welcome members and sorry again
Posted on November 13, 2012 by Dave Mantin Welcome to SANCanada, it
stands for Sexual Abuse Network of Canada, formally known as S.N.A.P
Atlantic Groups ( Survivors Network of Those Abused by Pedophiles ).
In the next few days we will update this site with all the information
that we had on all 5 of our old sites. And in addition of the name
changes and websites, I have spoken to our board of directors and we
feel that we can now go Canada wide instead of just the Atlantic
provinces because of support that our groups have and how many people
we have been able to help through this struggle .
No one knows better on how your feeling than someone that has been
through it, We have collect a great number of victims to assist us in
answering any questions you may have when you are ready to deal with
the past.
Anyone that has been sexually abused, weather it be last week or 60
years ago, or if it was a family member, friend, priest, or school
activities please call or email us anytime.
Dave Mantin
Email sancanadahelp@gmail.com
Phone 5066095725
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Amos" <david.raymond.amos@gmail.com>
To: "Rob Talach" <rtalach@ledroitbeckett.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 12, 2012 10:59 PM
Subject: Re: Attn Robert Talach and I should talk ASAP about my suing
the Catholic Church Trust that Bastarache knows why
The date stamp on about page 134 of this old file of mine should mean
a lot to you
http://www.checktheevidence.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Amos" <motomaniac333@gmail.com>
To: <gregory.craig@skadden.com>; <Patrick.Fitzgerald@skadden.
Cc: <pm@pm.gc.ca>; <david.raymond.amos@gmail.com>
<NewsTips@turner.com>; <patrick.j.fitzgerald@usdoj.
<bob.paulson@rcmp-grc.gc.ca>; <bob.rae@rogers.blackberry.net
"MulcaT" <MulcaT@parl.gc.ca>; <erin@issaforcongress.com>;
<john@issaforcongress.com>; <darrell@issaforcongress.com>;
<RBauer@perkinscoie.com>; <MElias@perkinscoie.com>;
<aculvahouse@omm.com>; <counsel@barackobama.com>;
<granthuihi@garyjohnson2012.
<Rathika.Sitsabaiesan@parl.gc.
<george.osborne.mp@parliament.
<public.enquiries@hm-treasury.
<michael.geller@rbs.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 10:22 PM
Subject: Re: Mr Obama and his lawyer Mr Bauer are no doubt well aware
of why the US Treasury Dept in Alanta and many others are nervous EH
Mr Harper?
Why am I not surprised? We all know Chicago aint my kind of town EH
Greg Craig???
http://www.scribd.com/doc/
Former U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald will join Skadden, Arps,
Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP on Oct. 29 as a partner
From: Fitzgerald, Patrick J. (USAILN) <Patrick.J.Fitzgerald@usdoj.
Subject: Automatic reply: Mr Obama and his lawyer Mr Bauer are no
doubt well aware of why the US Treasury Dept in Alanta and many others
are nervous EH Mr Harper?
To: "David Amos"
Date: Wednesday, October 24, 2012, 5:45 PM
I have retired from the government and will no longer have access to
this email. If you need to contact the US Attorneys Office about a
matter, please contact the following phone number for directions as to
where to address your inquiry: 312-353-6742.
----- Original Message -----
From: David Amos
To: pm@pm.gc.ca ; david.raymond.amos@gmail.com ;
motomaniac333@gmail.com ; NewsTips@turner.com ;
patrick.j.fitzgerald@usdoj.gov ; bob.paulson@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ;
bob.rae@rogers.blackberry.net ; MulcaT ; erin@issaforcongress.com ;
john@issaforcongress.com ; darrell@issaforcongress.com
Cc: RBauer@perkinscoie.com ; MElias@perkinscoie.com ;
aculvahouse@omm.com ; counsel@barackobama.com ;
granthuihi@garyjohnson2012.com ; gregory.craig@skadden.com ;
icnucnwecan@yahoo.com ; Rathika.Sitsabaiesan@parl.gc.
riho.kruuv@mfa.ee ; george.osborne.mp@parliament.
public.enquiries@hm-treasury.
michael.geller@rbs.com
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 9:44 PM
Subject: Mr Obama and his lawyer Mr Bauer are no doubt well aware of
why the US Treasury Dept in Alanta and many others are nervous EH Mr
Harper?
QSLS Politics
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http://qslspolitics.blogspot.
http://qslspolitics.blogspot.
Just go back six more years in case you forgot EH Harper???
http://qslspolitics.blogspot.
Bob Bauer a former blogger for Huffington Post returned to Perkins $
Coie after a period of service to President Barack Obama as his White
House Counsel from December of 2009 until June of 2011.
He is now General Counsel to the President’s re-election committee, to
Obama for America, and General Counsel to the Democratic National
Committee. He has also served as co-counsel to the New Hampshire State
Senate in the trial of Chief Justice David A. Brock (2000); general
counsel to the Bill Bradley for President Committee (1999-2000); and
counsel to the Democratic Leader in the trial of President William
Jefferson Clinton (1999).
He has co-authored numerous bipartisan reports, including "Report of
Counsel to the Senate Rules and Administration Committee in the Matter
of the United States Senate Seat From Louisiana" in the 105th Congress
of the United States (March 27, 1997); "Campaign Finance Reform," A
Report to the Majority Leader and Minority Leader of the United States
Senate (March 6, 1990); and "The Presidential Election Process in the
Philippines" (1986), a bipartisan report prepared at the request of
the Chairman and Ranking Member of the U.S. Senate Committee on
Foreign Relations.
Too bad so sad the lawyer Obama didn't ignore his legal counsel and
check my work for himself long ago. It is clear to me that Bob Bauer
never studied Maritimers and their lawsuits as closely as I studied
his work over the years.
http://www.checktheevidence.
If Obama does not finally simply say my name and expose what he knows
about Romney and I way back before he was even a Governor then he
deserves to lose this election.
However even though I would NOT wish to see another GOP president you
and your Bankster buddies won't mind that a bit but I doubt the NDP
and the Liberals will agree EH Mr Prime Minister?
http://davidamos.blogspot.ca/
Some wise should scroll to the botom of this email and unserstand that
it was Fidelity that knowly sold the Title Insurance on the fruldulent
sale of my family's home in 2005 then Citizens Bank illegally recorded
the discharge of a mortage long after the deal was done and I heve the
records from the Registry of Deeds. Clearly the Royal Bank Of Scotland
and British FSA has ADMITTED knowing all this for wat past too long.
Veritas Vincit
David Raymond Amos
902 800 0369
QSLS Politics
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----- Original Message -----
From: "David Amos" <motomaniac333@gmail.com>
To: <mark.vespucci@ci.irs.gov>; "RBauer" <RBauer@perkinscoie.com>;
"bginsberg" <bginsberg@pattonboggs.com>; "Gilles.Moreau"
<Gilles.Moreau@rcmp-grc.gc.ca>
Cc: "David Amos" <david.raymond.amos@gmail.com>
<andre@jafaust.com>; "andremurraynow" <andremurraynow@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 17, 2013 1:03 AM
Subject: Good evening Special Agent Mark Vespucci Say Hoka Hey to Mr
Obama's lawyer for me will ya???
You dudes can find this email right here
http://thedavidamosrant.
http://qslspolitics.blogspot.
QSLS Politics
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: David Amos <motomaniac333@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 14:10:14 -0400
Subject: Yo Mr Bauer say hey to your client Obama and his buddies in
the USDOJ for me will ya?
To: RBauer <RBauer@perkinscoie.com>, sshimshak@paulweiss.com,
cspada@lswlaw.com, msmith <msmith@svlaw.com>, bginsberg
<bginsberg@pattonboggs.com>, "gregory.craig"
<gregory.craig@skadden.com>, pm <pm@pm.gc.ca>, "bob.paulson"
<bob.paulson@rcmp-grc.gc.ca>, "bob.rae"
<bob.rae@rogers.blackberry.net
<leader@greenparty.ca>
Cc: alevine@cooley.com, David Amos <david.raymond.amos@gmail.com>
michael.rothfeld@wsj.com, remery@ecbalaw.com
QSLS Politics
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IP Address 149.101.1.# (US Dept of Justice)
ISP US Dept of Justice
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State : District of Columbia
City : Washington
Lat/Long : 38.9097, -77.0231 (Map)
Language English (U.S.) en-us
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http://qslspolitics.blogspot.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Amos" <motomaniac333@gmail.com>
To: <RBauer@perkinscoie.com>; <MElias@perkinscoie.com>
Cc: <aculvahouse@omm.com>; "David Amos"
<david.raymond.amos@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 24, 2012 5:49 PM
Subject: Remember me Mr Bauer??? No doubt Mr Elias does EH?
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Amos" <david.raymond.amos@gmail.com>
To: <KVogel@politico.com>; <MElias@perkinscoie.com>; <jaf123@aol.com>;
<media@alfranken.com>; <rob.heller@marquiswhoswho.com
<thielen@republicanlawyer.net>
<tokyo@ubp-group.com>
Cc: "webo" <webo@xplornet.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 3:57 PM
Subject: Fwd: Re :USANYS-MADOFF AND IMPORTANT INFORMATION FROM US
ATTORNEY'S OFFICE SDNYc
Hey
I just called you correct Mr Vogel? (703 647 7985) You do work for a
publicly held Corp and you are supposed to conduct yourself ethically
as a journalist CORRECT? If you don't think that I am the guy who
caused Bernie Madoff to suddenly plead guilty last month and am
justifiably pissed off today then you best read this email and the
following ones real slow.
You did ask me to cut to the chase correct Kenny Baby? My answer was
Cya in Court Correct? Now my question is do you have a lawyer and does
he understand the power of emails as evidence in legal matter? If not
perhap he should ask the lawyer Elias why I am so pissed off after you
forward him this and the following emails EH? (FYI I called Elia
office too 202.434.1609 and read his assistant the riot act while I
was doing so other lawyers were studing me rathe dilently scroll to
the bottom of this email to see the proof)
After breaking the icecap on my name in the media yesterday I am
speaking again today on Dr Bill Deagle's radio show on GCN. My
intention today as I speak again on Dr Bill's show is to try to expose
my knowledge of what Barack Obama and his cohorts knew about my
concerns beginning back in 2004 long BEFORE he was elected Senator and
how he quite likely used the material I sent him byway of his
assistant Peter Coffey to become the keynote Speaker at the Democrat's
convention in July of 2004 that gave rise to his popularity with the
malevolent assistance of Howard Dean and many others. Perhaps you
should tune in to the alternate media for your source of true info.
On a personal level in the strange world of coincidences it was a
Yankee Judge named Coffey who was my neighbor in Milton MA (the town
where George H. W. Bush was born) that became involved in my false
imprisonment in Boston in October of 2004 based on an unsigned illegal
criminal complaint in a court with no jurisdiction to even atempt to
hear such a matter in the first place. More importantly Dennis
Kucinich knew everything a year before that happened when he was
running for the presidentil nonination in 2003 and 2004. Just before
my phone line was cut in Milton MA I called Kucinich office they
acknowledge hhis response to me in 2003 but denied knowing what I sent
his lawyer lady friend at the time. When invited him to come to court
on October 1st, 2004 to help me impeach George W. Bush. Kucinich's
people declined my offer just like my wife's Yankee lawyer Barry
Bachrach who also chickened out. Not long after that call my phone
line was cut and I went to jail without being legally arrested and
held under the charges of "other" in solitary confinement without bail
until the Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs paid me a visit. No
kidding I hve the documentation posted in my files within SCRIBD.
Google me sometime before you dare to call me a liar or a nut. Clearly
I studied you dudes. It was not a cold call today EH?
http://www.answers.com/topic/
http://investing.businessweek.
http://www.politico.com/
http://www.perkinscoie.com/
To put this simply as possible reading this nonsense of yours offends me.
http://www.politico.com/news/
Start reading my emails to see why Yankee.
Veritas Vincit
David Raymond Amos
______________________________
From: davidramos@xplornet.com
To: 4humanitysake@comcast.net; 911TruthAction@yahoogroups.com
a_jones10467@yahoo.com; atvnews@ctv.ca; cap871@hotmail.com;
c.sperr@comcast.net; dblaron67@yahoo.com; derrickcrobinson@gmail.com;
erniemusic2@yahoo.com; irock96@hotmail.com; gerryduffett47@yahoo.com;
kevin_annett@hotmail.com; laceupboots@hotmail.com;
marsboy683@yahoo.com; mc_victim@hotmail.com; mcclelland_t@hotmail.com;
mcclellandt@netzero.com; One_World_Religion@
orwelltoday@orwelltoday.com; rghouseholder@msn.com;
your_neighbor_2000@yahoo.com; warren.mcbeath@rcmp-grc.gc.ca;
bev.busson@rcmp-grc.gc.ca
CC: Iolmisha@cs.com; jhughes164@yahoo.com; jstc4emsurvivors@yahoo.com;
Justice4Tyrell@yahoogroups.com
mc_victim@hotmail.com; midnightladync@yahoo.com;
orwelltoday@orwelltoday.com;
september_eleven_vreeland@
catfishwithlips@yahoo.com; Harper.S@parl.gc.ca; deanr0032@hotmail.com;
LPPCIOCE@SMTP.LPS.STATE.NJ.US; mark.delaney@pol.state.ma.us;
edward.lynch@po.state.ct.us; stottr@mshp.state.mo.us;
fbooth@safety.state.nh.us; cward@cameronward.com
Subject: Fw: Please press print on this attachment and give it to MacKay
Date: Fri, 5 Jan 2007 01:41:19 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: TruthAGAINSTtradition@
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 4:51 AM
Subject: Fw: Please press print on this attachment and give it to
MacKay
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: Liliana.Longo@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ; py.bourduas@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ;
InfoWarz@rovin.net
Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2006 2:26 AM
Subject: Fw: Please press print on this attachment and give it to
MacKay
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: dutydesk@torontopolice.on.ca ; vpd@vpd.ca ; eps@police.edmonton.ab.ca
Sent: Wednesday, December 27, 2006 6:35 PM
Subject: Fw: Please press print on this attachment and give it to
MacKay
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: warren.mcbeath@rcmp-grc.gc.ca
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 2:59 PM
Subject: Fw: Please press print on this attachment and give it to
MacKay
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: ottawairc@state.gov
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 10:28 AM
Subject: Fw: Please press print on this attachment and give it to
MacKay
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: doralee.smith@pwgsc.gc.ca ; MacKay.P@parl.gc.ca
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2006 9:49 AM
Subject: Please press print on this attachment and give it to
MacKay
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: eamacleod@cbrmps.cape-breton.
Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2006 5:26 PM
Subject: Fw: Press print on this attachment and call me a liar now
Ms. Matthews
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: bev.busson@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ; Oda.B@parl.gc.ca ;
paul.dube@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ; Henry McCandless ; dwatch@web.net ;
president@utoronto.ca ; chris.cunningham@utoronto.ca
Cc: Dykstra.R@parl.gc.ca ; solberg.m@parl.gc.ca ;
thompson.g@parl.gc.ca ; toews.v@parl.gc.ca ; Daniel.Conley@state.ma.us
; ruby@ruby-edwardh.com ; fbinhct@leo.gov ;
patrick.fitzgerald@usdoj.gov ; Russell_Feingold@feingold.
stephen.cutler@wilmerhale.com ; Press@devalpatrick.com ;
olived@sen.parl.gc.ca ; bmulroney@ogilvyrenault.com ;
broy@ogilvyrenault.com ; cumby.meghan@dailygleaner.com ;
stronach.b@parl.gc.ca ; day.s@parl.gc.ca ; iwhitehall@heenan.ca ;
jchretien@heenan.ca ; rheenan@heenan.ca ; duffy@ctv.ca ;
tomp.young@atlanticradio.
dykstrafarms@hotmail.com
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2006 10:17 AM
Subject: Fw: Press print on this attachment and call me a liar now
Ms. Matthews
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: s.r.hewitt@bham.ac.uk
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 10:02 PM
Subject: Fw: Press print on this attachment and call me a liar now
Ms. Matthews
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: editor@pentictonwesternnews.
Cc: spotlight@cablerocket.com
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 9:54 PM
Subject: Fw: Press print on this attachment and call me a liar now
Ms. Matthews
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: mail@citizen.on.ca
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 9:23 PM
Subject: Fw: Press print on this attachment and call me a liar now
Ms. Matthews
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: ian.walsh@gnb.ca
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 3:46 PM
Subject: Fw: Press print on this attachment and call me a liar now
Ms. Matthews
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: ejshea@gov.pe.ca
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 11:42 AM
Subject: Fw: Press print on this attachment and call me a liar now
Ms. Matthews
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: comartin.j@parl.gc.ca ; Brown.G@parl.gc.ca ; cotler.i@parl.gc.ca ;
Hawn.L@parl.gc.ca ; Menard.S@parl.gc.ca ;
scarpinelli@publicintegrity.
MacKenzie.D@parl.gc.ca ; Chan.R@parl.gc.ca ; Bevilacqua.M@parl.gc.ca ;
Batters.D@parl.gc.ca ; Siksay.B@parl.gc.ca ; Anderson.Da@parl.gc.ca ;
Komarnicki.E@parl.gc.ca
Cc: SECU@parl.gc.ca ; Breitkreuz.G@parl.gc.ca ; hollam@parl.gc.ca ;
arnold.zeman@psepc-sppcc.gc.ca ; Duceppe.G@parl.gc.ca ;
Harper.S@parl.gc.ca ; Layton.J@parl.gc.ca ; Godin.Y@parl.gc.ca ;
McDonough.A@parl.gc.ca ; Stoffer.P@parl.gc.ca ;
gemerson@tor.fasken.com ; garth@garth.ca ; rmooremp@nb.sympatico.ca ;
Matthews.B@parl.gc.ca ; smay@pattersonpalmer.ca ;
news957@rci.rogers.com ; Scott.A@parl.gc.ca ; zedp@parl.gc.ca ;
leo@primetimecrime.com ; crilf@ucalgary.ca ;
giuliano.zaccardelli@rcmp-grc.
stephane.vaillancourt@rcmp-
info@pco-bcp.gc.ca ; Daniel.Conley@state.ma.us ; kmearn@mpdmilton.org
; Freeman.C@parl.gc.ca
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 3:52 PM
Subject: Fw: Press print on this attachment and call me a liar now
Ms. Matthews
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: chanr0@parl.gc.ca
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 3:00 PM
Subject: Fw: Press print on this attachment and call me a liar now
Ms. Matthews
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: johnforan.mla@nb.aibn.com ; Chris.Baker@gnb.ca ;
yvon.leblanc3@gnb.ca ; rachel.bard@gnb.ca ; Louise.LEMON@gnb.ca
Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2006 2:47 PM
Subject: Fw: Press print on this attachment and call me a liar now
Ms. Matthews
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: amacbeath@grantthornton.ca
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 2:09 PM
Subject: Fw: Press print on this attachment and call me a liar now
Ms. Matthews
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: bmatthews@grantthornton.ca
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 1:32 PM
Subject: Press print on this attachment and call me a liar now Ms.
Matthews
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: freemc@parl.gc.ca
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 1:00 PM
Subject: Fw: Angie press print on this attachment I know for a fact
it works
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: pmartin@GrantThornton.ca
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 12:07 PM
Subject: Fw: Angie press print on this attachment I know for a fact
it works
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: nraynard@GrantThornton.ca ; jdelaney@GrantThornton.ca ;
kferguson@GrantThornton.ca ; blewis@GrantThornton.ca
Cc: krieger@GrantThornton.ca ; hjaffer@GrantThornton.ca ;
rgodbold@GrantThornton.ca
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 11:59 AM
Subject: Fw: Angie press print on this attachment I know for a fact
it works
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: gdent@GrantThornton.ca
Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2006 10:04 AM
Subject: Fw: Angie press print on this attachment I know for a fact
it works
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: ckennedy@notes.tcs.treas.gov
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 5:32 PM
Subject: Fw: Angie press print on this attachment I know for a fact
it works
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: Raf.Souccar@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ; tim.killam@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ;
martin.blais@rcmp-grc.gc.ca ; harrir1@parl.gc.ca ; harrir@parl.gc.ca ;
peterj@parl.gc.ca
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 2:44 PM
Subject: Fw: Angie press print on this attachment I know for a fact
it works
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: leo@primetimecrime.com ; gary.bignell@peelpolice.on.ca ; crilf@ucalgary.ca
Sent: Monday, December 11, 2006 12:17 PM
Subject: Fw: Angie press print on this attachment I know for a fact
it works
----- Original Message -----
From: David
Raymond Amos
To: angie.coss@cjad.com
Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2006 8:03 PM
Subject: Angie press print on this attachment I know for a fact it
works
>> From: davidramos@xplornet.com
>> To: samperrier@hotmail.com; alltrue@nl.rogers.com
>> CC: deanr0032@hotmail.com; motomaniac_02186@yahoo.com
>> Subject: This Dean dude really pissed me off.
>> Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 23:42:46 -0400
>>
>> Apparentely I was summoned to stand before a Yankee Court on January 3rd
>> to answer more false criminal charges but I was not served anything and
>> nobody would talk about it. Now the day has come and gone and still
>> everybody is playing dumb.
>> It is also abundantly clear I was very wrong about this Dean kid. He
>> is a real snake in the grass. I also was invited to another one of those
>> sneaky Yahoo chat rooms on New Years Eve. Need I say I smelled foul play?
>> Remeber what I thought of Integrity BC crowd before I went to jail? When I
>> stomped on the bastards in another Yahoo Group this little prick Dean
>> showed
>> me his nasty arse. Obviously I pissed of his buddies. Ask me if I care. I
>> guess it is just another one of thise things I do that nobody seems to
>> appreciate.
>> I just spent the second miserable Xmass without my kids and I am
>> feeling as mean as a snake. My little Darlin came down with diabetes and
>> cried all Xmass day because I was not there. Rest assured there will be
>> Hell
>> to pay. because I could not make my Gracie's wish come true.
>> This is just one of many emails I received from that Dean kid in the
>> past few days. What he says of me is absolutely incredible but not
>> surprising at the same time. Rest assured I will use everyone of his own
>> words against him. However when he began slamming Sam in a couple of
>> emails
>> I figured you guys should know. If you say nothing its cool. I am about to
>> tear the little bastard a brand new arsehole to cram a couple of Newfy
>> diddlers up into .(I see Tommy Marshall has a new job eh?)
>> Notice how the chickenshit out west claims Hickman is behind me and
>> Sam works with Hickman? A lot he knows eh? Does this kid even know how to
>> read or does he just cut and paste everything? Curiousity has got the cat.
>> I must ask Byron is he one of the dudes that warned you away from me?
>> Happy New Year fellas
>> Dave
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "dean Ray" <deanr0032@hotmail.com>
>> To: <davidramos@xplornet.com>; <4humanitysake@comcast.net>;
>> <911TruthAction@yahoogroups.
>> <atvnews@ctv.ca>; <cap871@hotmail.com>; <Catboat15@aol.com>;
>> <erniemusic2@yahoo.com>; <irock96@hotmail.com>;
>> <gerryduffett47@yahoo.com>;
>> <human_rights_1@yahoogroups.
>> <marsboy683@yahoo.com>; <One_World_Religion@
>> <rghouseholder@msn.com>; <your_neighbor_2000@yahoo.com>
>> <c.sperr@comcast.net>; <dblaron67@yahoo.com>; <derrickcrobinson@gmail.com>
>> Cc: <Harper.S@parl.gc.ca>; <Iolmisha@cs.com>; <jhughes164@yahoo.com>;
>> <jstc4emsurvivors@yahoo.com>; <Justice4Tyrell@yahoogroups.
>> <laceupboots@hotmail.com>; <mc_victim@hotmail.com>;
>> <midnightladync@yahoo.com>; <orwelltoday@orwelltoday.com>;
>> <september_eleven_vreeland@
>> <catfishwithlips@yahoo.com>
>> Sent: Thursday, January 04, 2007 5:55 PM
>> Subject: If your trying to imply you are a investigative team fintrac or
>> fbsa who do you?
>>
>>
>> > http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I cross references Yves Bourduas with freemasons and found nothing
>> Probably
>> > nothing under clean up of Iluminati either. He is not cleaning up any
>> > terrorist more like cleaning up dissidents or pissed off citizens. I
>> > believe you are an agent trying to set up Byron Prior to do something
>> crazy
>> > and attempt to protect T Alex Hickman a rich Baby diddler.
>> > why would you send me this garbage? You seen saddam hanged do you
>> > realize
>> > how close the New World Order is to falling apart. Do you realize what
>> the
>> > citizens will do to you if you are guilty. What you have done to Byron
>> > Prior Is treason !!!!
>> >
>> > why not just clear your name you have my questions?
>> >
>> > Is Collin Robinson the guy who raped my cousin connected to your clan?
>> > This guy erased critical research on T Alex Hickman while I was at work
>> > I
>> > stored my computer at my Aunts place?
>> > Why is your best buddy Sam Perrier doing business with T Alex Hickman?
>> >
>> > Why did you sit back and watch Jeremy Swanson blead dry poor Byron
>> Prior?
>> >
>> > Then show up out of nowhere too late? Nobody contacted you How did you
>> > know anything was going on? you brag you see everything....
>> >
>> > What group owns that club that backed your parliament adventures?
>> >
>> > You brag you have escape vehicles all over does Your baby diddler friend
>> > T
>> > Alex Hickman pay for that?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Am i correct that you are connected to Hells Angels and those vehicles
>> > are
>> > paid for by blood money?
>> >
>> > If that is the case how many children have to die so that you live?
>> >
>> > DId you tell someone to play bumper tag with me on the highway?
>> >
>> > Answer all my queries and I stop otherwise I just go till I am stopped.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 38th PARLIAMENT, 1st SESSION
>> > Standing Committee on Justice, Human Rights, Public Safety and Emergency
>> > Preparedness
>> >
>> >
>> > EVIDENCE
>> > CONTENTS
>> >
>> > Tuesday, December 7, 2004
>> > Pierre-Yves Bourduas, Deputy Commissioner, Federal Services and Central
>> > Region, Royal Canadian Mounted Police: I will start by talking about
>> > Canada's anti-money laundering and anti-terrorist financing regime,
>> > which
>> > impacts on two separate branches of the RCMP. The RCMP Proceeds of Crime
>> > Branch is the authority that oversees the AML regime, and the National
>> > Security Operations Branch is the authority reporting on the ATF regime.
>> >
>> > The RCMP was provided with 34 positions in total that were assigned to
>> money
>> > laundering units across Canada and to RCMP Headquarters. Their
>> > responsibilities include assessing money laundering intelligence
>> > received
>> > from the Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada,
>> > or
>> > FINTRAC, the Canada Border Services Agency and others. Originally, the
>> RCMP
>> > did not any receive resources under the initiatives to address ATF
>> > issues.
>> >
>> > One of the key areas that must be addressed in this legislative review
>> > is
>> > the expansion of the current list of designated information that FINTRAC
>> is
>> > legislated to disclose to law enforcement and intelligence agencies.
>> >
>> > As stated in the consultation paper, the 2004 Report of the Auditor
>> General
>> > of Canada and the Year Five Evaluation of the National Initiatives to
>> Combat
>> > Money Laundering and Interim Evaluation of Measures to Combat Terrorist
>> > Financing, the effectiveness of FINTRAC disclosures are limited by
>> > legislative restrictions that constraint the information that can be
>> > disclosed.
>> >
>> > The most valuable addition would be a narrative underlying the rationale
>> for
>> > disclosing and, more specifically, the reason for suspicion. This
>> > information, if provided, would improve the value of FINTRAC
>> > disclosures,
>> > eliminate duplication of effort and ultimately enhance Canada's AML and
>> ATF
>> > regimes.
>> >
>> > Many private businesses under the protection of section 462.47 of the
>> > Criminal Code of Canada continue to make direct voluntary disclosures to
>> the
>> > RCMP, and most of these disclosures contain more information than what
>> > is
>> > actually received from FINTRAC. Although some are voluminous, they are
>> > accompanied by a brief explanation of why the institution considers the
>> > transaction suspicious. This narrative can save investigators
>> > considerable
>> > time and analytical effort.
>> >
>> > It should be stressed that Canadian law enforcement is not seeking
>> > direct
>> > access to FINTRAC information. Although unique internationally, the RCMP
>> > continues to respect its arm's-length relationship with FINTRAC and the
>> need
>> > to ensure personal information under its control is protected. However,
>> once
>> > this independent agency has reasonable grounds to suspect that their
>> > information would be relevant to investigating or prosecuting a money
>> > laundering offence, this information should be made more readily
>> > available
>> > to Canadian law enforcement agencies at large.
>> >
>> > Further, the RCMP believes consideration should be given to lowering the
>> > threshold for obtaining production orders from ``reasonable grounds to
>> > believe'' to ``reasonable grounds to suspect'' on the balance of
>> > probabilities. This would result in a more efficient and effective
>> > system
>> > and would ultimately strengthen our ability to deal with the money
>> > laundering issue.
>> >
>> > The RCMP is keenly interested in the Department of Finance's continuing
>> > negotiation with the legal profession to develop a new legislative and
>> > regulatory regime that better takes into account the duties of legal
>> > counsel. The RCMP agrees with parliamentarians, the Auditor General and
>> the
>> > media that the exclusion of the legal profession poses a significant gap
>> in
>> > Canada's regime.
>> >
>> > It is clear that due to the special privileges the legal profession is
>> > granted, this is a sensitive area. It is also the reason why the
>> > Interpretative Notes of the Forty Recommendations allow for flexibility,
>> > including allowing professions such as the legal profession to send
>> > their
>> > Suspicious Transaction Reports to their appropriate self-regulatory
>> > organization, provided that there are appropriate forms of cooperation
>> > between these organizations and the financial intelligence unit.
>> >
>> > Anyone, including lawyers, who act as a financial intermediary must
>> > accept
>> > responsibility to ensure they are not moving criminal or terrorist
>> proceeds.
>> > Failure to have any segment of society accept this responsibility makes
>> them
>> > the weak link and a potential target. The FATF recommendations clearly
>> > do
>> > not impede access to legal counsel and serve the interests of society
>> > without impacting solicitor-client privilege.
>> >
>> > The RCMP supports the inclusion of diamond, precious metals and stones
>> > as
>> a
>> > reporting entity under the act. This would require the reporting of
>> > large
>> > cash and suspicious transactions and a range of client identification
>> > and
>> > record- keeping requirements by the industry.
>> >
>> > As stricter regulations are imposed on businesses in the financial
>> services
>> > industry, criminals are seeking alternative methods of laundering the
>> money
>> > accumulated from criminal activity. Various characteristics of the
>> industry
>> > make it highly vulnerable to criminal activity.
>> >
>> > The RCMP fully supports the government's proposal to amend the act and
>> > its
>> > regulations to establish a registration regime for money services
>> businesses
>> > and foreign exchange dealers for the purpose of anti-money laundering
>> > and
>> > anti- terrorist financing measures.
>> >
>> > Recent investigations across Canada clearly exemplify how the absence of
>> > licensing or registration in Canada makes this sector highly attractive
>> > to
>> > money laundering criminals looking for alternatives to the regulated
>> banking
>> > sector. This sector continues to grow as they continue to be found in
>> > convenience stores, clothing stores, restaurants, book stores, video
>> stores,
>> > nail polishing stores, wireless communication stores, jewellery stores
>> > and
>> > travel agencies.
>> >
>> > The ``white label'' ATMs are non-bank ATMs owned and operated by
>> independent
>> > service operators and without any known financial institution logo. They
>> are
>> > mentioned briefly in the Department of Finance's discussion paper as an
>> area
>> > the government will be reviewing in the future. The RCMP encourages this
>> > review as investigations continue to indicate that these machines
>> represent
>> > an ideal method to launder significant amounts of money.
>> >
>> > The RCMP is part of an initiative led by the Department of Finance that
>> > sought additional resources for consideration in the 2006 federal
>> > budget.
>> It
>> > appears the RCMP will enhance its resource level under the National
>> > Initiative to Combat Money Laundering, NICML, both within our Proceeds
>> > of
>> > Crime Branch and our National Security Operations Branch. The latter is
>> > expected to receive 12 additional resources, which will be allocated to
>> the
>> > operational divisions. These new investigators will help build up
>> > capacity
>> > in the three major financial centres where the majority of information
>> > is
>> > received from FINTRAC. The addition of new resources to the program will
>> > still require prioritization of activities; however, it will allow for a
>> > more balanced approach and ultimately allow law enforcement to truly
>> > test
>> > the ``value added'' of the Canadian money laundering strategy.
>> >
>> > Maureen Tracy, Director General, Enforcement Programs Directorate,
>> > Enforcement Branch, Canada Border Services Agency (CBSA): Before I
>> > begin,
>> on
>> > behalf of the Canada Border Services Agency, I would like to thank the
>> > deputy chairman for his kind words in introducing us. As a very new
>> > agency
>> > with a broad mandate and many expectations placed on us, it is very good
>> to
>> > hear the support that comes from the Senate and others.
>> >
>> > I would like to thank you very much for the invitation to come and
>> > speak.
>> > Our administration of Part 2 of the proceeds of crime legislation is a
>> major
>> > component of our enforcement program, and we are quite proud of the
>> results
>> > we have achieved over the last few years.
>> >
>> > I would like to give you a brief overview of the role of the Canada
>> > Border
>> > Services Agency as it relates to the National Initiative to Combat Money
>> > Laundering, or NICML, and the international fight against money
>> > laundering
>> > and terrorist financing in general. I will also provide information on
>> > how
>> > we have organized ourselves to deliver this program in the field and the
>> > successes we have had to date.
>> >
>> > As you are aware, the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist
>> > Financing Act, which received Royal Assent in June 2000, was introduced
>> > to
>> > remedy shortcomings in Canada's anti-money laundering legislation. The
>> > act
>> > was aimed at implementing specific measures to combat money laundering,
>> > including the requirement to report cross- border movements of currency
>> and
>> > monetary instruments equal to or greater than a prescribed amount to the
>> > Financial Transactions and Reports Analysis Centre of Canada, FINTRAC.
>> >
>> > Bill C-36, the anti-terrorist omnibus bill, expanded the scope of the
>> > legislation to also combat terrorism. The name was changed to the
>> > Proceeds
>> > of Crime (Money Laundering) and Terrorist Financing Act, PCMLTFA.
>> >
>> > The Canada Border Services Agency is responsible for the administration
>> and
>> > enforcement of Part 2 of the act, which requires every person or entity
>> > to
>> > report to a CBSA border officer the importation or exportation of
>> > currency
>> > or monetary instruments valued at $10,000 Canadian or greater. The
>> reporting
>> > requirements under the legislation encompass all modes of travel,
>> including
>> > air, highway, rail and marine, and all methods of importation and
>> > exportation, that is, personal travellers, vehicles, commercial cargo,
>> > courier and postal.
>> >
>> > >From an administrative perspective, the CBSA collects cross-border
>> currency
>> > reports from travellers and commercial entities. Officers also assist
>> > travellers and businesses in complying with the currency reporting
>> > forms.
>> In
>> > other words, we have a service provision responsibility in this regard
>> > as
>> > well. The completed reports are transmitted to FINTRAC for analysis.
>> >
>> > >From an enforcement perspective, the CBSA has the authority to search
>> > and
>> > seize non-reported currency and monetary instruments greater than
>> > $10,000
>> > Canadian or equivalent. Information relating to seizure actions is also
>> > transmitted to FINTRAC. All seizures are subject to appeal to the
>> > Minister
>> > of Public Safety and, ultimately, to the Federal Court of Canada.
>> >
>> > The cross-border currency reporting program of the CBSA was allocated
>> > approximately $3.2 million per year to enforce the legislation. This
>> funding
>> > was dedicated to processing and communicating reports to the field,
>> > headquarters coordination, and compliance verification and enforcement.
>> The
>> > bulk of the resources were devoted to the administration, receiving and
>> > processing of reports and to the enforcement and compliance verification
>> > activities that proceed from that.
>> >
>> > The dedicated resources were placed at high risk ports of entry,
>> > covering
>> > both the air and highway modes. There are also currency enforcement
>> > teams
>> as
>> > well as currency dog teams in place at key locations.
>> >
>> > The CBSA has also invested in a variety of detection tools, including
>> mobile
>> > X-ray units and other detection tools such as video scopes. We have at
>> > our
>> > disposal a wide range of other technologies that assist in the
>> non-intrusive
>> > examination of goods.
>> >
>> > Since the commencement of the cross-border currency reporting program in
>> > January 2003, over 100,000 import and export cross-border currency
>> > reports
>> > have been received by the CBSA.
>> >
>> > Enforcement of the legislation by the agency from inception to April 30,
>> > 2006, has resulted in over 5,100 enforcement actions, involving more
>> > than
>> > $132 million. Of the over 5,000 seizures that have been undertaken since
>> the
>> > inception of the program, just under 600 have been appealed to the
>> minister.
>> > Of those, 321 were maintained as assessed, 111 were mitigated and 49
>> > were
>> > cancelled. There are currently 37 active cases before the courts.
>> >
>> > In closing, we believe at the Canada Border Services Agency that with
>> > the
>> > implementation of this program our agency has been very successful in
>> > increasing its contribution to the international fight against
>> > transborder
>> > crime, specifically money laundering and terrorist financing. As a
>> > direct
>> > result of the program, more than $34 million in suspect proceeds of
>> > crime
>> > were forfeited and thus taken out of circulation.
>> >
>> > [Translation]
>> >
>> > Senator Massicotte: In your report, Mr. Bourduas, you mention the role
>> that
>> > lawyers play. This legislation contains an important exception for
>> lawyers,
>> > in so far as client-attorney privilege is concerned. Every citizen is
>> > entitled to legal representation. At the same time, this right impacts
>> > our
>> > objective of addressing the money laundering issue.
>> >
>> > If a lawyer deposits funds in a Canadian bank, does the bank have an
>> > obligation to ask more questions about the origins of these funds? If
>> > the
>> > bank is acquainted with the lawyer and deems him to be a credible,
>> > serious
>> > individual, does the questioning end there? What rules of disclosure
>> > apply
>> > in the case of such funds? Is it the responsibility of the lawyer or of
>> the
>> > client to disclose the source of these funds?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: There are two parts to that question, the first involving
>> > a
>> > lawyer's obligation toward his client. On looking at the provisions of
>> > the
>> > act, we believe that a lawyer also has a responsibility toward society
>> > in
>> > general to see to it that any funds a law firm is asked to handle for
>> > its
>> > client were not obtained through unlawful means.
>> >
>> > The purpose of these amendments is to ensure that lawyers adopt the same
>> > procedures as financial institutions, that is that they know their
>> > client,
>> > record the origin of the funds as such and invest these funds.
>> >
>> > We recognize the importance of attorney-client privilege. A clear
>> framework
>> > must be in place to prevent money laundering operations, since the first
>> > step is the actual investment of the funds.
>> >
>> > We want to avoid a situation where law enforcement officials arrive with
>> > a
>> > warrant to search the offices of law firm. A substantial percentage of
>> > our
>> > investigations eventually lead us to law firms that have been involved
>> > in
>> > certain questionable transactions.
>> >
>> > Senator Massicotte: I want to be clear about this. I understand your
>> > interpretation of the provision, but are lawyers completely exempted at
>> this
>> > point in time, or only with respect to some of the transactions handled
>> > by
>> > their firm? Accountants and insurance brokers are not excluded.
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: The exclusion applies to transactions that bring in
>> > substantial sums of money to the firm. Most lawyers claim to have this
>> kind
>> > of privileged relationship with their client and are not necessarily
>> > required to disclose the origins of these funds.
>> >
>> > Senator Massicotte: Take the case of a lawyer who makes a deposit. He
>> > represents a client who is not exactly on the up and up. He takes
>> > receipt
>> of
>> > a large sum of money which he then deposits in a Canadian bank. What
>> > obligation does the Canadian bank have in this case? It knows the lawyer
>> and
>> > his firm has some major accounts with this financial institution. Does
>> > the
>> > bank's responsibility end there? Should the bank ask questions about the
>> > origin of all funds that it handles? Does it have an obligation to
>> question
>> > the client?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: One of the first rules is ``know your customer.''
>> >
>> > Senator Massicotte: In this case, the customer is the lawyer. Correct?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: That is right.
>> >
>> > [English]
>> >
>> > Therefore, it is ``know your customer'' and not ``know the customer of
>> your
>> > customer.''
>> >
>> > [Translation]
>> >
>> > Senator Massicotte: The obligation ends with the lawyer.
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: Correct. If, for example, the firm is a serious business
>> that
>> > handles large sums of money, then the bank has already met its
>> > obligations
>> > up to a point.
>> >
>> > The purpose of the proposed amendment to the act is to make law firms
>> > accountable. They need to know the exact origin of the funds that they
>> > handle so as to avoid having people take advantage of their credibility
>> and
>> > so that they do not become the intermediary through which funds are
>> > channeled to financial institutions.
>> >
>> > Senator Massicotte: There are a number of lawyers, all of whom are very
>> > honourable, seated here at this table. However, occasionally we
>> > encounter
>> > some who are not so honest. The legislation gives them an opening to
>> > take
>> > advantage of the situation and possibly to launder substantial sums of
>> > money.
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: You have raised a very important point. It is generally
>> > accepted that lawyers are honest individuals. This legislation seeks to
>> > protect lawyers or the legal profession per se by making lawyers legally
>> > required to declare these funds. The lawyer, therefore, has an
>> > obligation
>> to
>> > tell his client that he must report and hence disclose the origin of any
>> > funds handed over to the firm. This obligation makes the lawyer's
>> > position
>> > that much more comfortable in that he has a duty to manage his client.
>> > The
>> > burden of ensuring that the transaction is legitimate is thus shifted to
>> the
>> > lawyer and eventually, to the financial institution which will not ask
>> > question because the lawyer's credibility is already well established.
>> >
>> > Senator Massicotte: My second question is for Ms. Tracy. Recently I was
>> > in
>> > Hong Kong and visited the port, one of the busiest in the world, if the
>> > volume of container traffic is any indication.
>> >
>> > Ms. Tracy: To which port are you referring?
>> >
>> > Senator Massicotte: I am talking about the port of Hong Kong, and about
>> the
>> > port of Singapore as well. I observed that all of the trucks and people
>> > accessing the port must go through a control post where they are scanned
>> to
>> > ensure that nothing suspicious finds its way into one of the containers.
>> >
>> > Two or three weeks ago, I read in a Canadian Press article that no such
>> > procedure was followed in Canada. However, no explanation was given for
>> this
>> > oversight. Yet, Canada is a fairly wealthy country, when compared to
>> > Hong
>> > Kong or Singapore. We constantly hear how a wide variety of goods are
>> > handled at Canadian ports. Why are such procedures not in place in
>> > Canada?
>> >
>> > [English]
>> >
>> > Ms. Tracy: Could it be that the equipment you are referring to is
>> radiation
>> > detection equipment?
>> >
>> > Senator Massicotte: It could be.
>> >
>> > Ms. Tracy: There is good news from the CBSA on that front. We spent the
>> > better part of 18 months researching radiation detection equipment. We
>> have
>> > selected equipment that, for the moment, based on the technology that is
>> out
>> > there, is the best fix for us. I am referring to portal equipment where
>> the
>> > trucks will drive through two posts and be scanned for radiation.
>> >
>> > To get the bugs out, on a pilot basis we installed the equipment at a
>> small
>> > container port in New Brunswick, but by the end of the 2006 calendar
>> > year,
>> > we are very optimistic that we will have it in Halifax, Montreal and
>> > Vancouver. That will mean that as close as we can get to 100 per cent of
>> > containers will be scanned for radiation.
>> >
>> > In addition to that equipment, we have gamma ray technology in the form
>> > of
>> > 11 or so mobile VACIS. You pass a container through it and, in about 30
>> > seconds, you see an image of the inside of that container and can
>> determine
>> > whether the declaration is actually accurate or whether the container
>> > contains contraband.
>> >
>> > [Translation]
>> >
>> > Senator Massicotte: Why is this done only at ports and not at border
>> points
>> > in general or at other major points of entry?
>> >
>> > [English]
>> >
>> > Ms. Tracy: The ports are the first element of our strategy. I am aware
>> that
>> > the United States has radiation detection at their land borders. There
>> > are
>> > no plans at this time for Canada to put radiation detection at our land
>> > border. We believe we have targeted the equipment to the highest risk
>> area.
>> > In the security and prosperity partnership with Mexico and the United
>> > States, we have committed to looking at expanding the radiation
>> > detection
>> > program in concert with the United States, and that would be both for
>> > research and additional deployment, but at this point there are no plans
>> to
>> > put it at our land border.
>> >
>> > Senator Goldstein: I wish to pursue a question that was asked by Senator
>> > Massicotte. Lawyers handle all kinds of transactions. It is certainly
>> > true
>> > that there are very honest lawyers and less honest lawyers in existence.
>> > That is true of every profession. How would you address the concerns
>> > that
>> > lawyers have expressed to you? Independent of professional privilege,
>> where
>> > a transaction is not privileged - that is, where a financial transaction
>> > takes place between two parties - both parties know that it is financed
>> > by
>> > money that may be coming from the U.K., entirely legitimately, or from
>> > any
>> > other source. The lawyer has to then make a judgment call as to whether
>> > he
>> > or she should divulge or not divulge. You have given us the beginning of
>> an
>> > answer, which is that lawyers who are known to be honest will not be
>> > considered to be involved in suspicious transactions, whereas lawyers
>> > who
>> > are known by their own institutions to be perhaps less perfectly honest
>> will
>> > be. That necessarily requires arbitrary judgments because there are no
>> > objective criteria for them. How does one justify making those judgments
>> > when one is aware of the Charter obligation to not make those judgments?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: We recognize that there are governing bodies within the
>> legal
>> > profession, and our position here speaks to this point exactly. The
>> lawyers,
>> > through their governing bodies, would report to FINTRAC all transactions
>> in
>> > excess of $10,000.
>> >
>> > As Senator Massicotte mentioned, a huge gap needs to be addressed.
>> > ``Know
>> > your client'' is a slippery slope when you start leaving it to the good
>> > judgment of a particular individual who might not be seized with all of
>> the
>> > surrounding circumstances that brought this amount of cash to the
>> > lawyer's
>> > office. We are saying, let us take this burden of good judgment and use
>> > regulations to simply transfer it to an independent body like FINTRAC,
>> > for
>> > instance. They would be in a position to look at the transaction
>> > involving
>> > this individual and then look at their overall data bank to ensure that
>> this
>> > person has not used this particular law office for a single transaction
>> that
>> > would link with other suspicious transactions. That would paint a much
>> > larger picture. It does not influence or affect the good judgment of
>> > this
>> > particular lawyer. We are simply saying that we should put a system in
>> place
>> > that would allow for a much broader picture to be painted about specific
>> > transactions.
>> >
>> > Senator Goldstein: I am not sure that your answer really responds to the
>> > concern that I am trying to express. You have suggested that, in the
>> > upcoming amendment process, the criterion for being able to go to court
>> > should be changed from ``reasonable grounds to believe'' to ``reasonable
>> > grounds to suspect.'' That is a long dimension of arbitrary judgment.
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: I would like to set the record straight. I did not talk
>> about
>> > going to court. I am simply talking about a production order. We are
>> asking
>> > for a production order when we have ``reasonable suspicion'' as opposed
>> > to
>> > ``beyond a reasonable doubt.''
>> >
>> > Senator Goldstein: From whom would you ask for that production order?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: We would ask FINTRAC for that. We are not talking about
>> going
>> > to court. It is important to realize that our main focus is to address
>> > the
>> > weakest link possible when we talk about the money laundering process.
>> > The
>> > weak links are these hockey bags filled with money. I know this from
>> > professional and personal experience, having been the manager of a major
>> > money laundering case in Montreal from 1990 to 1994, where we laundered
>> $162
>> > million over a four-year period with four undercover agents from the
>> > RCMP.
>> > We had people coming in with hockey bags full of money they wanted to
>> place,
>> > and this is the reason we have to focus corporately and collectively at
>> this
>> > stage. We have to make it a little harder for these people to place this
>> > large amount of cash.
>> >
>> > Senator Goldstein: You told us, Ms. Tracy, that machinery and equipment
>> are
>> > in place in specific parts of the country for a variety of purposes,
>> > including the intention to create radiation screens throughout the
>> country.
>> > If I were seeking to bring something into Canada, knowing what you just
>> told
>> > us, I could simply cross into Canada elsewhere.
>> >
>> > Ms. Tracy: That is a fair comment. The Canada Border Services Agency
>> > needs
>> > to deploy equipment to the areas that we have assessed as presenting a
>> high
>> > risk. We have to acknowledge that there are many ways an individual can
>> > bring things into the country. We are doing our best in our risk
>> assessment
>> > process to plug those gaps. We are continuing with our assessment of
>> > those
>> > risks and with our research and development into new technology.
>> >
>> > I think the inventory of equipment that is out there now - and I am
>> probably
>> > going to get this wrong but not too wrong - is in the neighbourhood of
>> > $68
>> > million. In 2000 it was something like $1.5 million, so the investment
>> > has
>> > been made.
>> >
>> > In addition, the type of equipment we have out there is much more
>> > sophisticated than we had just four or five years ago. As I mentioned,
>> > we
>> > have entered the field of radiation detection. We have much stronger
>> > gamma
>> > ray systems that provide for better screening and for the screening of
>> more
>> > cargo.
>> >
>> > Yes, you are right that it is an uphill battle when you consider we have
>> > such a large country with so many possibilities and ways for someone to
>> > enter. However, we are working on the basis of risk and will continue to
>> > deploy equipment to the areas that we see are vulnerable.
>> >
>> > Senator Goldstein: Mr. Bourduas, what kind of training do your 34
>> analysts,
>> > and the ones you are asking for now, receive so that they can be certain
>> to
>> > understand the balance between investigative requirements and Charter
>> > requirements?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: When looking at the proceeds of crime, our analysts also
>> have
>> > to be versed in what type of criminality we are investigating. Our
>> > investigators have field experience and have gone to court with regard
>> > to
>> > substantive offences. They have operated for a number of years with the
>> > reality of the Charter and have been brought into the fold to look at
>> > the
>> > proceeds of crime legislation and ways to develop a clearer picture of
>> > the
>> > challenges we face and how we can strategically deploy our limited
>> resources
>> > to address those challenges.
>> >
>> > Senator Tkachuk: Mr. Bourduas, page 3 of your brief states:
>> >
>> > ...the RCMP continues to respect its arm's length relationship with
>> > FINTRAC.... However, once this independent agency has reasonable grounds
>> to
>> > suspect that their information would be relevant to investigating or
>> > prosecuting a money laundering offence, this information should made
>> > more
>> > readily available to Canadian law enforcement agencies.
>> >
>> > This implies that you are not satisfied with the information you are
>> getting
>> > and its availability to you. Perhaps you could expand on that one
>> sentence.
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: With regard to FINTRAC, we are of the opinion that the
>> current
>> > legislation talks about what should constitute ``designated
>> > information.''
>> > We also believe that the legal interpretation given to ``designated
>> > information'' is a little too narrow in scope. We would like to seek a
>> > broadening of this information and the definition of ``designated
>> > information'' so we can access additional information from FINTRAC in
>> > relation to what constitutes their reasonable grounds to believe that a
>> > transaction is labelled suspicious. We are asking for reasons to justify
>> > this referral and additional information that would allow our
>> investigators
>> > to better focus our investigation into a given area.
>> >
>> > We are satisfied with the relationship we have with FINTRAC, but we are
>> > seeking is a much broader definition or interpretation of the definition
>> of
>> > ``designated information.''
>> >
>> > Senator Tkachuk: You would prefer it to be less onerous on their part so
>> you
>> > would receive more information; correct? Is it the quality or you just
>> want
>> > more?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: It is both the information and also the qualifier of the
>> > particular information that we are seeking.
>> >
>> > Senator Tkachuk: Would this require amendments to the act to expand the
>> > amount of information that would be turned over to the RCMP?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: Currently, subsection 55(7) of the act deals with
>> > designated
>> > information and talks about names and addresses, the amount and type of
>> > currency, the type of transaction, the account number, and then, at
>> > subparagraph (e), makes reference to ``any other identifying information
>> > that may be prescribed.'' That has been ruled to be very much in line
>> > with
>> > the previous four items, without broadening the definition to at least
>> allow
>> > investigators to know why FINTRAC has labelled particular information
>> > ``suspicious.'' We are seeking a broadening of the definition so that
>> > investigators can have a better idea as to why some of these
>> > transactions
>> > have been labelled ``suspicious.''
>> >
>> > Senator Tkachuk: When we discussed the issue of privacy with officials
>> from
>> > FINTRAC, they said that a number of measures were in place to protect
>> > the
>> > privacy of the information. They also said that at the end of five years
>> > they would get rid of it unless it was sent to the police; then it was
>> eight
>> > years. What do you do with it? If you expand the amount of information
>> that
>> > they are sending over to you, then the police are getting more
>> information,
>> > which is simply information. We do not know if a particular person has
>> done
>> > anything wrong; it is just information. Do you get rid of your
>> > information
>> > after a certain number of years or does it stay in that file forever?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: We would like to do something with the information, of
>> course,
>> > and that is the main thrust behind what we are seeking. We want
>> > additional
>> > information to get a much clearer picture as to what certain groups or
>> > individuals are doing in relation to financial transactions. By
>> > obtaining
>> > additional information, we would be in a better position to focus our
>> > limited resources on a particular file or referral as opposed to simply
>> > placing the referral in a queue. We have limited resources, so we also
>> have
>> > to manage risk and prioritize.
>> >
>> > Senator Tkachuk: I understand that, but let us say they could provide
>> > you
>> > with more extensive information. What happens if this additional
>> information
>> > leads you nowhere? What would you do with it in the end? Would it be
>> > discarded or would that information stay with you forever? Let us say
>> > that
>> > the information is just a name with a whole bunch of financial details
>> > and
>> > it sits in a file at the RCMP and leads nowhere. Would you get rid of it
>> > after a while?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: When it is just a name with limited information, we set it
>> > aside. We also have rules and regulations internally in relation to how
>> long
>> > we keep certain information on file. Like any other organization, at one
>> > point the information is simply discarded.
>> >
>> > Senator Tkachuk: Is it destroyed or is it moved to another building?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: At some point we run out of buildings, senator; that is
>> > our
>> > reality.
>> >
>> > Senator Tkachuk: The task force on money laundering made a number of
>> > recommendations in 2003-04. One of them involved casinos not being
>> licensed,
>> > a more regulatory and supervisory regime for casinos and also ownership
>> > requirements. I think those are all provincial matters. Are the
>> > provinces
>> > that the RCMP is serving - like Saskatchewan, for example, where the
>> > RCMP
>> is
>> > our police force - not licensing properly? Do you feel the regulations
>> > are
>> > sufficient to prevent money laundering in provinces that have casinos?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: In my former life as a commanding officer in Quebec, I had
>> to
>> > deal with investigations that brought us to casinos in that province.
>> > Rest
>> > assured that these institutions, very much like other institutions, want
>> to
>> > avoid, like the plague, criminal organizations using their institutions
>> > to
>> > launder money. They are very much regulated and they do cooperate with
>> > police authorities - be it the provincial police or the RCMP - because
>> they
>> > are cognisant of the fact that their institution might be used for
>> > exactly
>> > this purpose. They closely monitor their transactions and make
>> > unsolicited
>> > reports to police agencies when they see a suspicious transaction. Under
>> the
>> > auspices of the Criminal Code, they will provide us with more
>> > information
>> > than we would normally get from an institution like FINTRAC. They want
>> > to
>> > ensure they provide us with all the information and all the related
>> > circumstances to allow the investigators to put the information into
>> > perspective.
>> >
>> > Senator Tkachuk: Considering that gambling used to be a criminal
>> > activity,
>> > they might have more knowledge about it than a bank or a credit union.
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: Obviously, it is legal now. Rest assured that the
>> > provincial
>> > government wants to keep these types of activities from being
>> > infiltrated
>> by
>> > organized crime because it used to be managed more or less by organized
>> > crime.
>> >
>> > Senator Tkachuk: In that recommendation, the task force stated that
>> > necessary legal or regulatory measures be taken to prevent criminals or
>> > their associates from holding or being the beneficial owners of a
>> > significant or controlling interest or holding a management function or
>> > being the operator. Is there reason to suspect that casinos in Canada
>> > are
>> > infiltrated by criminals or people interested in money laundering?
>> >
>> > The Deputy Chairman: Do you mean the ownership?
>> >
>> > Senator Tkachuk: Or the management.
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: Or the board of directors.
>> >
>> > Senator Tkachuk: Yes.
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: Once again, police organizations are working closely with
>> > casinos. The majority of security forces for casinos are constituted by
>> > former police officers and are doing background checks on anyone who
>> > deals
>> > with the management of the casinos to ensure everything is above board
>> > in
>> > relation to their operation. They all know what the consequences might
>> > be
>> if
>> > anyone associated with organized crime were to have a major role in the
>> > operation of any casinos or board of directors, for that matter.
>> >
>> > Senator Campbell: When the RCMP receives information from FINTRAC, where
>> > does it go from there? Who do you pass it on to?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: As a result of Bill C-22, we formed a group of specialized
>> > investigators that are seized with the information they receive either
>> from
>> > FINTRAC or from CBSA. These people try to put the information into
>> > context
>> > so they can dispatch it to our proceeds of crime units that are deployed
>> > across the country.
>> >
>> > Senator Campbell: Would you pass this information on to Canada Revenue
>> > Agency?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: Our investigators are focused on the criminal aspect of
>> > what
>> > constitutes a potential violation of the Criminal Code. Therefore, as I
>> > indicated, they would dispatch this particular information to some of
>> > our
>> > investigators who are dealing with proceeds of crime.
>> >
>> > Once the investigation has started and the piece of information that we
>> > received from FINTRAC were to help us paint a clearer picture, we would
>> give
>> > priority this investigation over others. We would deal with the
>> individuals,
>> > the organization, the substantive offence and the proceeds aspect of the
>> > investigation and would bring these individuals or the organization
>> > before
>> > the court. We also have a liaison officer who deals with the Canada
>> Revenue
>> > Agency, and some of the financial information might be passed on to the
>> CRA.
>> >
>> > Senator Campbell: How about other police forces?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: Other police forces are part of our Combined Forces
>> > Special
>> > Enforcement Units, or CFSEUs. These units are scattered all over the
>> > country. Our ultimate goal is to put these criminals out of business.
>> >
>> > That is the reason we are striving to gain access to additional
>> information.
>> > We need more context than a name and an amount of money. We would then
>> > be
>> in
>> > a better position to actually channel this information through our
>> > CFSEUs
>> to
>> > our proceeds of crime unit and also to other police forces, if need be.
>> >
>> > Senator Campbell: Clearly I am pro police, but there is a question of
>> trust.
>> > I do not mind the information being there. It is okay if the information
>> > goes to a particular organization, but my worry is that it might then go
>> to
>> > a separate organization, which might then send it to all sorts of other
>> > organizations. Along the way, the public must be absolutely certain that
>> the
>> > information is always used for the reason for which it was gathered. The
>> > difficulty is that every organization has a different reason for looking
>> at
>> > that information. That, to me, is the worry. Where is the tipping point?
>> We
>> > all want to catch the bad guys and put them in jail; we all want to
>> > fight
>> > terrorism. At what point do we tip over? I suppose that is the question
>> > we
>> > are really looking at here.
>> >
>> > Also, I know you have regulations stipulating that this information must
>> be
>> > kept for a certain amount of time, but we are not talking about a
>> warehouse;
>> > we are talking about an infinite hard drive. What is the minimum amount
>> > of
>> > time you are required to hold on to files before you get them out of the
>> > system?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: Bear in mind that when we investigate proceeds of crime
>> files,
>> > some of the information that relates to a particular individual must be
>> kept
>> > for a certain amount of time. In fact, we ran into problems when we
>> > discarded some information and then 10, 15 or 20 years down the road
>> needed
>> > additional information to substantiate before the court that an
>> > individual
>> > had been involved in crime for so many years. That is why we looked at a
>> > policy dealing with the disclosure of information. As I indicated, most
>> > of
>> > the time this information is put in context and we will keep it for the
>> > duration of the file. At other times, we will keep the information if
>> > the
>> > individual is the subject of interest in any other file within the
>> > organization.
>> >
>> > Senator Campbell: If I had been involved in crime 30 years ago, I would
>> have
>> > a record and you would have it. It would never be gone; is that correct?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: It would depend on the record. If you were to have records
>> in
>> > your personal notebook -
>> >
>> > Senator Campbell: I am not talking about me, Larry Campbell. I have not
>> been
>> > a criminal for 30 years. I am speaking hypothetically. You were saying
>> that
>> > you lost all of this information because you did not have the criminal
>> > records of the person involved. However, if I were involved in criminal
>> > activity and were convicted, then I would have a criminal record that
>> should
>> > be on the files. You are talking about someone who was involved in an
>> > activity and may or may not be a criminal - you do not know - and now
>> > you
>> > want to find out more about them. That creates a problem. There is a
>> statute
>> > of limitations on most things. What we are doing here is saying, ``Let's
>> > extend this.''
>> >
>> > When I worked in the business, we could never have enough intelligence.
>> > It
>> > is a matter of bringing it all in and shifting through it. I am really
>> > having difficulty with this.
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: As well, we need to give context to the intelligence, sir;
>> you
>> > are absolutely right. Our organization keeps a piece of information to
>> > ensure that it fits in some puzzle somewhere so that we can complete the
>> > picture of the individual with whom we are dealing. It is important,
>> > however, that we provide some context. If the information is not
>> > relevant
>> to
>> > any ongoing investigation or any files or the subject is of no interest
>> > to
>> > us, then we have plenty of other organizations and individuals to look
>> > at.
>> >
>> > Senator Campbell: I will go back to what you said before. Let us assume
>> > there is information on Larry Campbell, but nothing of relevance. That
>> kind
>> > of information does not go away. Twenty years from now, you want to be
>> able
>> > to put my name into the system, my date of birth if you have it, and
>> > have
>> > the information appear. As you said, you lost that information, so there
>> is
>> > no way of tying Larry Campbell to activities that took place 20 years
>> > ago.
>> > Suddenly, however, there is a new investigation and my name pops up.
>> > That
>> is
>> > my problem.
>> >
>> > Senator Tkachuk: I have a supplementary. I was not sure that I got my
>> answer
>> > when I asked a similar question.
>> >
>> > Senator Campbell and I are both concerned. When you receive a name that
>> has
>> > been investigated, a lot of evidence has been accumulated that has
>> > nothing
>> > to do with any criminal activity. It might simply be personal
>> > information
>> > unearthed by your investigator who has talked to friends, bankers,
>> > employers, et cetera. Nothing happens with the accumulated information
>> > because there is no evidence of any criminal wrongdoing. What happens to
>> > that file? My belief is that the file is never closed and just sits
>> > there.
>> I
>> > believe that you never get rid of that file.
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: As I indicated, we have retention dates on files because
>> > at
>> > one point it would become ridiculous to keep all of these files open.
>> >
>> > Senator Tkachuk: It is possible to store all of that information on
>> > computers today. Would you destroy such a file?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: All the information is disposed of after a certain length
>> > of
>> > time. The organization has parameters on discarding certain files. For
>> > example, our files on individuals involved with break and enters are
>> > destroyed after a period of time, whereas the files on more serious
>> > crimes
>> > such as murder are kept forever. There are different thresholds.
>> >
>> > I am a stickler for numbers, so I will share with you some of the
>> statistics
>> > on disclosures from FINTRAC. We received a total of 382 disclosures from
>> > FINTRAC. Nine per cent identified new or unknown individuals. This does
>> not
>> > mean we started investigations in relation to these individuals but
>> > rather
>> > that they were new or unknown to us. Fourteen per cent provided
>> > additional
>> > information to ongoing investigations. Twenty-five per cent were the
>> direct
>> > result of previous voluntary reports received from the RCMP. Sixteen per
>> > cent have been forwarded to other agencies. Twenty-nine per cent of the
>> > disclosures were associated with investigations that have been concluded
>> by
>> > the RCMP having sufficient resources to conduct investigations. Sixteen
>> per
>> > cent contained insufficient information to proceed with an
>> > investigation.
>> > Fifty-three per cent of the disclosures were concluded for the following
>> > reasons: no criminality was detected, insufficient information, no
>> predicted
>> > offence, and dated information or lack of resources. That is basically
>> what
>> > is happening with these files.
>> >
>> > Senator Baker: Unfortunately, I do not have time to ask a question of
>> > the
>> > RCMP officer who was the commanding officer for the largest cocaine
>> seizure
>> > in Canadian history, in Eastern Canada, which was called ``operation
>> > jewels,'' I believe.
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: You are well informed, senator, yes.
>> >
>> > Senator Baker: He was also the investigating officer into a particular
>> biker
>> > gang operation, the substance of which has gone to trial in many cases.
>> > He
>> > is a well-versed individual on search warrants and the relevant
>> > requirements, particularly in lawyers' offices.
>> >
>> > I remind you, Mr. Bourduas, that section 488 of the Criminal Code on
>> > searches of lawyers' officers has been struck down by the Supreme Court
>> > of
>> > Canada and replaced with a set of rules. I suspect that you are telling
>> > us
>> > within that context and your operations in the past that you want to
>> obtain
>> > additional information without a search warrant, whereas you would need
>> one
>> > normally. In your recommendations to this committee, you want greater
>> > authority to obtain information without going to the trouble of search
>> > warrants.
>> >
>> > Ms. Tracy, my question has to do with concerns about the act and
>> > criticism
>> > levied by the courts against subsection 12(1) of Part 2, which you
>> > administer. Myriad cases have been judged before the courts in Canada in
>> > which people have been trying to get back money that was seized at the
>> > border. The criticism of the courts relates to the question that the
>> > RCMP
>> > officer mentioned a moment ago - the difference between suspicion and
>> > belief. If CBSA officers suspect something, they can seize monies
>> > crossing
>> > the border. The minister then makes a determination as to whether that
>> money
>> > should be forfeited to the Crown.
>> >
>> > The criticism levied by the courts against this procedure is that
>> > nothing
>> > under the act enables someone to get their money out of forfeiture
>> > unless
>> > they can prove definitively that the money is legitimate. There is a
>> reverse
>> > onus on the person, and no there is procedure under the act that allows
>> them
>> > to get their money back, except to question the border guard on the
>> seizure.
>> >
>> > Ms. Tracy: The question is precisely the issue of reasonable suspicion.
>> > I
>> > was made aware this morning of the committee's interest based on
>> > testimony
>> > yesterday. I began this morning to inform myself on the judgments that
>> have
>> > been rendered to date and what is currently before the courts.
>> >
>> > I would not pretend to be able to answer, particularly now that I am
>> > informed you are a lawyer. I will not go into a great deal of detail,
>> > but
>> I
>> > will offer to provide more detailed information to the committee from
>> > the
>> > CBSA on this matter.
>> >
>> > The one thing I will say, though, is that I have not been involved with
>> this
>> > act for the whole time that it has been implemented, but I was, in a
>> former
>> > job, responsible for some of the design of the legislation - Part 2,
>> > obviously, because I have a customs background. One of the things that
>> > was
>> > very important to the drafters, and to us as well, was that we did not
>> want
>> > to trap individuals who had simply made a mistake or who did not know or
>> who
>> > were nervous about telling people because they might be robbed. We built
>> our
>> > program on that basis.
>> >
>> > Yes, the standard is reasonable suspicion, and I have some statistics.
>> > Of
>> > 5,000 enforcement actions, 595 were forfeitures. This is very different.
>> Of
>> > those remaining that were not forfeited, they were believed to be
>> > related
>> to
>> > issues of carelessness and perhaps deliberate non-reporting for whatever
>> > reason, but there was no suspicion of proceeds of crime. Our officers
>> > have
>> > been given very clear guidelines as to how to judge a level 4 seizure,
>> which
>> > is forfeiture.
>> >
>> > My point is that we are aware. The Canada Border Services Agency wears
>> > two
>> > hats. The first is that we are most definitely as an enforcement
>> > organization, but the other is that we are very conscious of how we
>> > affect
>> > the lives of the public and business in relation to imports and exports.
>> In
>> > the design of this program, and I believe I can say that in the
>> > administration of this program, we are aware of that. Obviously, if
>> > there
>> > are errors we will correct them, but we have taken safeguards and are
>> > comfortable and hopeful that the 37 cases before the courts right now
>> > will
>> > be ruled on in favour of the legislation and in favour of the agency.
>> >
>> > Senator Goldstein: How inhibiting would it be to the success of your
>> > work
>> to
>> > have legislation stating that if no prosecution results, you must
>> > destroy
>> > records within a predetermined period of time rather than relying on
>> > your
>> > internal criteria?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: We keep the records because a different set of
>> > circumstances
>> > is attached to each name. Fifty-three per cent of these disclosures did
>> not
>> > lead anywhere. Therefore, we pass on if there is insufficient
>> > information.
>> > If we can just put context to this, ultimately the file is destroyed,
>> > and
>> it
>> > is internally that we can manage this.
>> >
>> > The Deputy Chairman: The answer was very prejudicial.
>> >
>> > [Translation]
>> >
>> > Senator Massicotte: Mr. Bourduas, your summary notes that in the last
>> > five
>> > or six years, 80 or so suspicious transactions have been reported to the
>> > RCMP. My impression is that those involved in organized crime are
>> extremely
>> > creative. They can afford to be creative, given the lucrative nature of
>> > their activities. Senator Campbell, the former mayor of Vancouver, told
>> > us
>> > that marijuana trafficking alone generated revenues of $7 billion in
>> British
>> > Columbia. That is only one small component of organized crime. My guess
>> > is
>> > that we are talking about transactions worth $30 billion to $40 billion,
>> and
>> > yet, only 10 or so transactions were reported annually by FINTRAC. Only
>> $35
>> > million is assets were seized. To my way of thinking, that is only a
>> > very
>> > small percentage of all revenues associated with criminal activity and
>> money
>> > laundering operations.
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: That is consistent with my findings. Only by working
>> together
>> > will we be able to acquire the legislative means that will allow law
>> > enforcement agencies and border service officers to make a dent in
>> organized
>> > crime. Existing legislation has produced some results, qualified or not,
>> but
>> > armed with more effective tools, we will be able to achieve even better
>> > results.
>> >
>> > The government has already made some strides, but it is simply a matter
>> > of
>> > tightening up some of the legislative provisions in place to ensure that
>> our
>> > investigators have the authority to do the job that they are paid to do.
>> >
>> > Senator Massicotte: Am I wrong to think that our legislation has very
>> little
>> > impact on the various kinds of criminal activity in Canada?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: No, but it is having an impact of some kind when we
>> > compare
>> > ourselves to the rest of the world, and when we take into account our
>> > resources. Our people are doing an impressive job, but we need to shore
>> > up
>> > our resources.
>> >
>> > Senator Massicotte: How effective would you say we are? Are we 20, 30,
>> > 80
>> or
>> > 90 per cent effective?
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: Our Commissioner has said that our operations impact 25
>> > per
>> > cent of the 600 criminal organizations in all. There is nonetheless one
>> > important element that we are completely overlooking. My proposals are
>> aimed
>> > at bringing in more stringent legislation that would give our
>> investigators
>> > the tools to target organized crime where it hurts most, namely their
>> > financial operations.
>> >
>> > [English]
>> >
>> > The Deputy Chairman: Honourable senators, our next two meetings will be
>> > on
>> > May 31 and June 1, when we will deal with two reports that have been
>> > sent
>> to
>> > your offices. One concerns the demographic study, which we will deal
>> > with
>> on
>> > June 1. The other relates to a revised consumer report.
>> >
>> > [Translation]
>> >
>> > Thank you very much, Deputy Commissioner.
>> >
>> > [English]
>> >
>> > Ms. Tracy, thank you for coming. It flowed from the testimony you both
>> gave
>> > that you would be willing to provide further information, particularly
>> > Ms.
>> > Tracy on the issue of jurisprudence.
>> >
>> > Given the importance of what we are doing in terms of our collective
>> > security, this has not been enough time. The steering committee will
>> > consider conducting further hearings on this subject. If you feel that
>> would
>> > like to come back or have further information, either from the point of
>> view
>> > of the RCMP or your agency, I would invite you to do so.
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: The point that needs clarification is the elimination of
>> some
>> > of these records from our files, and it is obviously a concern around
>> > this
>> > forum.
>> >
>> > I will endeavour to provide a reply in writing as to our policies in
>> > relation to retention dates. If you are not satisfied with the reply, I
>> > would be more than willing to come back and answer your questions.
>> >
>> > The Deputy Chairman: That would be fine.
>> >
>> > You made a point regarding lawyers. Originally, I recall that lawyers
>> > were
>> > well covered in the legislation, but they raised issues of professional
>> > solicitor-client privilege, what some might call a moratorium on
>> enforcement
>> > against lawyers. I can tell you from personal experience that some law
>> firms
>> > actually act as if they are bound by the law. They comply and do the
>> > declarations, and everything is fine. However, there is a cadre of one,
>> two
>> > and three person practices, and I think those would be the ones that
>> concern
>> > you more. We have been informed by some of the evidence that there are
>> > discussions.
>> >
>> > [Translation]
>> >
>> > Discussions are under way between officials and lawyers.
>> >
>> > [English]
>> >
>> > What is the tenor of these discussions? We are told that in the United
>> > States, in the United Kingdom and other jurisdictions, which all have
>> > the
>> > same justice system as we do and the same legal ethics and codes of
>> conduct
>> > for lawyers, they do not have this problem that we have encountered in
>> > Canada.
>> >
>> > This committee would like to find a solution. As I understood your
>> evidence,
>> > it is one of the biggest lacunas in legislation. If you could enlighten
>> > us
>> > as to where it is headed, that would be helpful.
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas: I certainly will.
>> >
>> > The committee adjourned.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > RCMP chief had 'no choice' but to come clean
>> > SCOTT DEVEAU
>> >
>> > Globe and Mail Update
>> >
>> > Outgoing RCMP Commissioner Guiliano Zaccardelli said Thursday in Ottawa
>> that
>> > he "had no choice" but to come clean when he realized he had made
>> > mistakes
>> > in his testimony in the case of Maher Arar. The comments came the same
>> > day
>> > as Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day faced tough questions over Mr.
>> > Zaccardelli's resignation. "I had no choice. I had never had any choice
>> but
>> > to tell the truth," Mr. Zaccardelli said during a press conference in
>> > Ottawa.
>> >
>> > Á 1100
>> > The Chair (Hon. Paul DeVillers (Simcoe North, Lib.))
>> > Mr. Guy Racine (Mayor, Reeve of the MRC Haute-Yamaska and
>> > Spokesperson for the Coalition of Mayors, City of Granby)
>> >
>> > Á 1105
>> >
>> > Á 1110
>> >
>> > Á 1115
>> >
>> > Á 1120
>> >
>> > Á 1125
>> >
>> > Á 1130
>> >
>> > Á 1135
>> > Mr. Jean D'Amour (Mayor, City of Rivière-du-Loup)
>> >
>> > Á 1140
>> >
>> > Á 1145
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. Guy Racine
>> > Mr. André Langevin (Mayor, City of Coaticook)
>> >
>> > Á 1150
>> > Mr. Guy Racine
>> > Mr. Gilles Veilleux (Representative, City of Roberval)
>> >
>> > Á 1155
>> > Mr. Guy Racine
>> > Mr. Claude Vigneault (Mayor, Municipality of
>> Îles-de-la-Madeleine)
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. Guy Racine
>> > Mr. Jean Thériault (Representative, City of Baie-Comeau)
>> >
>> > Â 1200
>> > Mr. Guy Racine
>> > Mr. Jean-Claude Patenaude (Representative, City of
>> > Saint-Hyacinthe)
>> > Mr. Guy Racine
>> > Ms. Colette Roy Laroche (Mayor, City Lac-Mégantic)
>> >
>> > Â 1205
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. Guy Racine
>> >
>> > Â 1210
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. Vic Toews (Provencher, CPC)
>> >
>> > Â 1215
>> > Mr. Guy Racine
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. Guy Racine
>> > Mr. Jean D'Amour
>> >
>> > Â 1220
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. Serge Ménard (Marc-Aurèle-Fortin, BQ)
>> >
>> > Â 1225
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. Serge Ménard
>> > Mr. Robert Vincent (Shefford, BQ)
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. Guy Racine
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. David Christopherson (Hamilton Centre, NDP)
>> >
>> > Â 1230
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. Guy Racine
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. Serge Gosselin (Municipal Counsel, City of Coaticook)
>> > Mr. Guy Racine
>> > Mr. Jean D'Amour
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. David Christopherson
>> >
>> > Â 1235
>> > Mr. Guy Racine
>> > Mr. Jean D'Amour
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. Guy Racine
>> > The Chair
>> > Hon. Denis Paradis (Brome-Missisquoi, Lib.)
>> >
>> > Â 1240
>> >
>> > Â 1245
>> > Mr. Paul Crête (Montmagny-L'Islet-Kamouraska-
>> BQ)
>> > Hon. Denis Paradis
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. Guy Racine
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. Garry Breitkreuz (Yorkton-Melville, CPC)
>> >
>> > Â 1250
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. Guy Racine
>> > The Chair
>> > Hon. Roy Cullen (Etobicoke North, Lib.)
>> >
>> > Â 1255
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. Guy Racine
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. Guy Racine
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. André Langevin
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. Serge Ménard
>> >
>> > · 1300
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. Serge Ménard
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. Guy Racine
>> > The Chair
>> > Mr. Guy Racine
>> > The Chair
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> ------
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > CANADA
>> >
>> >
>> > Standing Committee on Justice, Human Rights, Public Safety and Emergency
>> > Preparedness
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> ------
>> > NUMBER 012
>> > l 1st SESSION
>> > l 38th PARLIAMENT
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> ------
>> >
>> > EVIDENCE
>> > Tuesday, December 7, 2004
>> > [Recorded by Electronic Apparatus]
>> > * * *
>> >
>> > Á (1100)
>> >
>> > [Translation]
>> >
>> >
>> > The Chair (Hon. Paul DeVillers (Simcoe North, Lib.)): I call to order
>> > this meeting of the Standing Committee on Justice, Human Rights, Public
>> > Safety and Emergency Preparedness.
>> >
>> > Our witnesses are the mayors and representatives of the
>> municipalities.
>> > We are carrying out a study on the closing of RCMP detachments in the
>> > regions. Mr. Racine, Mayor of the City of Granby, is the spokesperson.
>> >
>> > Mr. Mayor, I would like to ask you to introduce the representatives
>> > accompanying you.
>> >
>> > We usually give our witnesses about 10 minutes to make their
>> > presentation. However, I know that you have to share your time with all
>> > of
>> > the municipality representatives, so I will ask you to make all of your
>> > presentations in 30 or 40 minutes. In that way, the members will have
>> > time
>> > to ask their questions.
>> >
>> > Mayor Racine, you may begin.
>> >
>> >
>> > Mr. Guy Racine (Mayor, Reeve of the MRC Haute-Yamaska and Spokesperson
>> > for the Coalition of Mayors, City of Granby): Thank you very much, Mr.
>> > Chairman, for welcoming and agreeing to hear us. We very much appreciate
>> it.
>> >
>> > Before starting and introducing my colleagues, I'd like to take a few
>> > moments to point out the members who are with us here today. I hope I
>> won't
>> > forget any. This presentation is quite a production.
>> >
>> > With us are Mr. Vincent, member for Shefford--my riding--Mr. Crête,
>> > member for Montmagny-L'Islet-Kamouraska-
>> member
>> > for Compton-Stanstead, the Honourable Denis Paradis, from
>> Brome-Missisquoi,
>> > who was a major partner in this issue. Have I forgotten any members?
>> >
>> > An hon. member: Marc Boulianne.
>> >
>> > Mr. Guy Racine: Not to mention Marc Boulianne, member for
>> > Mégantic-L'Érable.
>> >
>> > Pardon me; I looked around a little earlier. And yet we both have the
>> > same haircut. I should have remembered. Pardon me.
>> >
>> > I'm told that the member for Saint-Hyacinthe-Bagot, Mr. Loubier, will
>> be
>> > here in a few moments.
>> >
>> > Mr. Chairman, with your permission, I'd also like to note the presence
>> > in this room of the former member for Shefford, Ms. Saint-Jacques, who
>> > ardently worked on the RCMP file, and David Price. A warm hello to them.
>> >
>> > Now allow me to introduce the mayors and the mayors' representatives
>> > here with us. Some mayors couldn't be here today.
>> >
>> > So we have Gilles Veilleux, representative of the City of Roberval;
>> > André Langevin, mayor of the City of Coaticook, and Serge Gosselin,
>> > municipal councillor of the City of Coaticook; Jean Thériault,
>> > representative of the City of Baie-Comeau; Claude Vigneault, mayor of
>> > the
>> > municipality of Îles-de-la-Madeleine; Jean-Clause Patenaude,
>> representative
>> > of the City of Saint-Hyacinthe; Colette Roy Laroche, mayor of the City
>> > of
>> > Lac-Mégantic; Jean D'Amour, mayor of the City of Rivière-du-Loup, and
>> > Johanne St-Pierre, his director of communications.
>> >
>> > I am the mayor of the City of Granby and the reeve of the MRC
>> > Haute-Yamaska. I'm acting as the spokesman of the common front of mayors
>> who
>> > find this decision unacceptable.
>> >
>> > Here's how I'll proceed, Mr. Chairman. As the spokesperson, I'll read
>> > you the message summing up the issue as a whole. Then I'll hand over,
>> > for
>> a
>> > brief period, perhaps two or three minutes, to the people here with me
>> > so
>> > that they can add to the information given to you.
>> >
>> > Then we'll be pleased to answer your questions or to listen to your
>> > comments.
>> >
>> > With your permission, I'll proceed.
>> >
>> > Following the September 23, 2004 announcement, the mayors of the
>> cities
>> > affected by the closing of the RCMP detachments met with Pierre-Yves
>> > Bourduas of the RCMP. The latter explained to them that the aim of this
>> > administrative decision was to redeploy the RCMP's forces so it could
>> better
>> > fulfill its mandate.
>> >
>> > This announcement was made at the same time as Operation Cisaille was
>> > being carried out to combat marijuana cultivation. The federal
>> government's
>> > decision to close RCMP detachments in nine Quebec cities has led to the
>> > creation of a coalition of the mayors of the cities concerned, as well
>> > as
>> of
>> > the reeves of the MRCs where these RCMP detachments are located, backed
>> > by
>> > the elected members for these ridings.
>> >
>> > Á (1105)
>> >
>> > The aim of this group's concerted efforts is to request the federal
>> > government to declare a moratorium on and review this decision.
>> >
>> > The withdrawal of the RCMP from our communities is a serious threat to
>> > the security of the populations concerned and creates an opening for
>> > increased crime. The RCMP's presence was fostering better partnership
>> > with
>> > the various authorities in our communities and the local police forces.
>> >
>> > Increasingly, criminal activity is extending beyond the borders of the
>> > major urban centres and the signatories to this report object to any
>> > reorganization that drains the regions of their services, at a time
>> > when,
>> at
>> > every level, decentralization is becoming a major tool for local
>> > development.
>> >
>> > The Annual Report of the Criminal Intelligence Service Canada dealing
>> > with organized crime in Canada in 2004 says "Illicit drug activities
>> > fuel
>> > violence unlike any other criminal activity. There are socio-economic
>> costs
>> > associated with the illicit drug trade such as property crimes, assaults
>> and
>> > homicides."
>> >
>> > This same report stresses that "illicit commodities are either
>> concealed
>> > within the larger volume of legitimate commercial and traveller movement
>> > entering through designated customs entry points or smuggled
>> surreptitiously
>> > through the vast stretches of less controlled border areas." It also
>> states
>> > that organized criminals will exploit less controlled areas. It is
>> > noteworthy that the Executive Committee of the Criminal Intelligence
>> Service
>> > Canada (CISC) is chaired by the RCMP Commissioner.
>> >
>> > Let's talk about Baie-Comeau and the Baie-Comeau region. There are
>> > almost 600 km separating Baie-Comeau from the Labrador border along
>> Highway
>> > 389 in a non-urban and unwatched area, leaving the way clear for the
>> > many
>> > narcotics smugglers. The closest RCMP detachment is in Sept-Îles, 240 km
>> > away, leaving Baie-Comeau with no federal policing service. The
>> Baie-Comeau
>> > SQ detachment has only four police officers in its narcotics-related
>> > organized crime squad to cover over 900 km of roads, that is to say 600
>> > km
>> > with the Labrador border, 200 km with Tadoussac and 120 km with
>> > Baie-Trinité.
>> >
>> > Since the closing of the Baie-Comeau RCMP detachment, confidential
>> > information indicates that no maritime surveillance is happening at all.
>> > Furthermore, no joint SQ-RCMP projects are being contemplated for
>> > Baie-Comeau which, in the past, have led to arrests for trafficking or
>> > possession for the purpose of trafficking. These joint operations were
>> > making it possible to fight drug trafficking better.
>> >
>> > Since September 11, 2001, the RCMP's priority has been focused on
>> border
>> > entry points, with little surveillance of the maritime routes. The
>> personnel
>> > at Sept-Îles consists of one supervisor and three police officers who
>> > have
>> > to cover the area from Tadoussac to Blanc-Sablon and from Schefferville
>> > to
>> > Anticosti. Since their workload is already excessive for the Sept-Îles
>> area
>> > alone, maritime surveillance is currently nonexistent. The people who
>> > were
>> > working in Baie-Comeau were not transferred to Sept-Îles, but to
>> > different
>> > provinces in Canada. From eight officers on duty in Sept-Îles, there are
>> now
>> > no more than four. We can assert that the "way is open" for traffickers
>> > in
>> > Baie-Comeau, via the Seaway.
>> >
>> > For the City of Baie-Comeau, the entire maritime component of the St.
>> > Lawrence River is being left without surveillance. A lot of narcotics
>> > trafficking takes place on vessels travelling in these waters and using
>> the
>> > Baie-Comeau harbour and the Alcoa and Cargill Ltée wharfs.
>> >
>> > Á (1110)
>> >
>> > The federal wharf received 68 vessels in 2003, Alcoa 78 and Cargill
>> 119.
>> > Those vessels came from Algeria, Brazil, Sweden, Asia and the United
>> States.
>> >
>> > For Baie-Comeau, in spite of the Sûreté du Québec's efforts, their
>> > personnel is clearly insufficient: four police officers are assigned to
>> the
>> > organized crime squad to watch Highways 138 and 389 to Labrador, giving
>> > narcotics traffickers free rein.
>> >
>> > The population of the MRC Manicouagan, of which the City of
>> Baie-Comeau
>> > is part, is 31,479 residents and, to this number, must be added 3,600
>> > Aboriginal people who represent 11.4 percent of the total population.
>> >
>> > Let's talk about Coaticook. The MRC de Coaticook has 18,500
>> inhabitants
>> > and would be henceforth served by the Sherbrooke RCMP located 35
>> kilometers
>> > away and 40 minutes travel time. The agricultural producers in the
>> Coaticook
>> > region are dealing with pot growers who invade their land and corn
>> > fields.
>> >
>> > The MRC de Coaticook runs along 30 km of the US border with the states
>> > of Vermont and New Hampshire and this border would be left without
>> > surveillance except for the three border crossing points located on
>> Highways
>> > 253, 141 and 147. Finally, in the Coaticook area, Highways 253
>> > (East-Hereford - Beecher Falls), 141 (Hereford and Canaan), and 147
>> > (Stanhope) are unwatched.
>> >
>> > As regards the City of Granby and the Granby region, the RCMP has been
>> > providing an essential presence in Granby since 1949. Granby has no more
>> > than three police officers to cover a very vast territory comprising
>> > three
>> > border crossing points. The day after the announcement, the RCMP
>> > building
>> > was covered with graffiti saying "Good riddance!". All that was missing
>> was
>> > the applause.
>> >
>> > The elected member for Shefford in 2003, Diane St-Jacques, with the
>> > assistance of the mayors, prefects and RCMP, SQ and municipal police
>> > management, had obtained the government's assurance that the Granby
>> > detachment would remain open.
>> >
>> > We were told that the RCMP was to consult the elected members, mayors
>> > and other stakeholders before making any decision whatsoever, but
>> > instead
>> we
>> > were faced with a fait accompli, without any consultation having taken
>> > place, with the excuse that it had to redeploy its forces to the major
>> > centres.
>> >
>> > One might legitimately ask what Drummondville has as a major centre
>> that
>> > Granby does not. We feel that this choice is unjustified.
>> >
>> > The closing of the RCMP detachment represents a terrible loss for the
>> > city and the MRC, because, without a strong police presence, the area is
>> > open to organized crime and criminals of all sorts. The government is
>> giving
>> > free rein to cannabis growing, narcotics trafficking, alcohol
>> > bootlegging,
>> > motorcycle gangs and terrorism, while weakening the enforcement of over
>> 130
>> > federal laws.
>> >
>> > Our municipal security service in Granby cooperates regularly with the
>> > RCMP on almost a daily basis on a number of matters: criminal motorcycle
>> > gangs, narcotics trafficking, alcohol bootlegging, criminal
>> investigations,
>> > and so on.
>> >
>> > Á (1115)
>> >
>> > Should we conclude that one wants to make way for organized crime in
>> the
>> > area? Because this closure is an invitation to organized crime to head
>> > to
>> > the Eastern Townships, to our regions where the borders are open.
>> >
>> > The Sûreté du Québec and the municipal police forces cannot pick up
>> all
>> > the slack for the area served. Along with undermanning at the Sûreté du
>> > Québec due to the map revision in 2002, 174 municipal police forces have
>> > merged into 44. There is widespread dissatisfaction among the cities
>> served
>> > by the SQ and the municipal police force's job has grown. And who will
>> > end
>> > up paying for it? The citizens, of course. It will cost more to boost
>> > municipal police forces, because the SQ is undermanned and the RCMP is
>> > closing its detachments.
>> >
>> > Our citizens pay municipal taxes for municipal policing, provincial
>> > taxes for the SQ and federal taxes for the RCMP. But we are not
>> > receiving
>> > these services and, on top of that, we are not being consulted.
>> >
>> > Some RCMP staff members have, in fact, stated that their numbers are
>> > clearly insufficient to combat organized crime. As proof, the number of
>> > officers in Granby dropped from six to three in one year. The City of
>> Granby
>> > has 46,500 inhabitants, in the very heart of the MRC Haute-Yamaska,
>> > which
>> > has 78,000 inhabitants. We will become an excellent place for organized
>> > crime, near to everything and far from everything.
>> >
>> > As for the Magdalen Islands, the federal and provincial police
>> > authorities are aware that marine space is frequently used as a channel
>> for
>> > narcotics trafficking. With the Magdalen Islands being located in the
>> middle
>> > of the Gulf of St. Lawrence, the RCMP officers were vigilant in
>> > combating
>> > marine and air smuggling traffic. We can expect narcotics smuggling to
>> > proliferate once the RCMP is no longer watching the marine space.
>> >
>> > In the Magdalen Islands, the closing of the RCMP detachment will
>> affect
>> > the surveillance of marine and air narcotics smuggling and the
>> > confrontations between seal hunters and anti-seal hunting activists are
>> > likely to increase.
>> >
>> > For the Magdalen Islands, it is primarily the marine space that will
>> not
>> > be watched for possible seaborne or airborne traffic.
>> >
>> > As for the Joliette region, the MRC de Joliette detachment has existed
>> > since 1949. Two years ago, Joliette could count on more than a dozen
>> > officers serving its territory. This year, there are no more than four
>> > officers and, tomorrow, there will be nobody.
>> >
>> > Joliette cannot concur with the plan concocted by management that will
>> > have policing services for the MRC concentrated in Saint-Jérôme or
>> > Trois-Rivières. This territory will be orphaned, without a federal
>> policing
>> > service nearby. Yet, like everywhere else, crime is not decreasing. It
>> > is
>> > the entire Lanaudière region that will be deprived of policing services.
>> > Furthermore, the community pays taxes that should provide it with the
>> > same
>> > services as elsewhere.
>> >
>> > The Joliette region will be doubly penalized: firstly, by losing
>> > personnel that the citizens have paid for and, secondly, by having to
>> > increase the number of provincial or municipal officers in order to get
>> the
>> > same services. It is common knowledge that reducing the number of police
>> > officers has always resulted in an increase in crime.
>> >
>> > Á (1120)
>> >
>> > The population is worried because it seems that the RCMP is already
>> > quietly vacating the premises. The detachment is already no longer
>> > taking
>> > calls for complaints but is referring them to Saint-Jérôme.
>> >
>> > Is the Joliette RCMP detachment effectively closed and is it being
>> wound
>> > up even before we can be heard by the Justice Committee? Is the
>> consultation
>> > process only for show or to have us believe that we can influence the
>> > decision?
>> >
>> > What I'm saying about Joliette we've heard about Granby and the
>> Magdalen
>> > Islands. As you'll see in the rest of the presentation, which is coming
>> > to
>> > an end, that will be repeated. The dismantling has begun, and we're
>> > appearing before the committee today in order to be heard. It's somewhat
>> > ironic, but we have evidence in our regions that the dismantling has
>> begun.
>> >
>> > In Lanaudière, the RCMP officers were handling close to 250 cases a
>> year
>> > and conducting 100 or so searches. The statistics for the past few years
>> > attest to this.
>> >
>> > We are thus opposed to the closing of the RCMP detachment in Joliette.
>> > We do not want to be treated like a second-class region. We are a
>> > full-fledged region and we demand the same rights and privileges as
>> > other
>> > regions of Quebec and Canada. We therefore insist that the government
>> leave
>> > the detachment and officers as they are. The Lanaudière region deserves
>> > to
>> > be treated equitably. We demand the same services as elsewhere. It is
>> > our
>> > strictest right.
>> >
>> > As I mentioned, the same sentence could have been repeated from city
>> to
>> > city.
>> >
>> > Moving on to the City of Lac-Mégantic, the RCMP has been there for
>> over
>> > 50 years. The methods of the criminal groups have changed but they are
>> > now
>> > increasingly found operating locally, in rural areas, in more insidious
>> > forms. For the MRC de Granit, its low population density, accessibility
>> and
>> > isolated farm and forest land are conducive to the growing, dealing and
>> > distribution of cannabis. This region is a preferred doorway for
>> > exporting
>> > cannabis in exchange for other narcotics from the United States. The
>> > proximity of the Canada-US border (31 km) and the reassignment of the
>> > RCMP
>> > officers to Sherbrooke (130 km from Lac-Mégantic) and Saint-Georges de
>> > Beauce (110 km from Lac-Mégantic) will mean that they will no longer be
>> able
>> > to carry out regular preventive patrols along the border. The region
>> > comprises 171 kilometers of Canada-US border along the states of Main
>> > and
>> > New Hampshire. The large distances to cover significantly reduce the
>> ability
>> > of officers to respond quickly to emergency calls from customs and
>> > immigration officers.
>> >
>> > The closing of the RCMP detachments for the border municipalities will
>> > allow the criminal groups, clandestine immigrant smugglers and terrorist
>> > organizations to operate more easily. The RCMP detachments in our
>> > municipalities and the preventive patrols on our territory are
>> > deterrents
>> in
>> > the fight against organized crime. The government's restructuring is
>> > thus
>> > weakening police intervention in the rural regions.
>> >
>> > There are close to 90,000 inhabitants in the City of Rivière-du-Loup
>> and
>> > region and approximately 100 km of its border is shared with the United
>> > States. Its geographical situation makes it a very spread-out area with
>> > concentrated urbanized areas. The secondary roads and "rangs" are great
>> > places for illicit activities, mainly due to their isolation and low
>> > population density. The main criminal activities observed in this region
>> are
>> > related to drugs (growing, distribution and sale), contraband (alcohol
>> > and
>> > cigarettes) and theft networks. The closing of the RCMP detachment puts
>> the
>> > region in a vulnerable position because it will be exposed.
>> >
>> > Á (1125)
>> >
>> > The presence of a well-known motorcycle gang in the Pocatière area
>> > confirms that criminal organizations are no longer solely active in the
>> > major centres but that regional communities also have to contend with
>> them.
>> >
>> > The Rivière-du-Loup region includes infrastructures that are conducive
>> > to and facilitate the transhipment of illicit goods, whether it be via
>> > the
>> > airport, the wharf facilities or the road system. With the closing of
>> > the
>> > RCMP detachments, the municipal public security services will have
>> > additional responsibilities thrust upon them for which they do not have
>> the
>> > required expertise to conduct investigations under the many complex
>> federal
>> > laws, especially as this type of mandate does not fit the level of
>> service.
>> >
>> > Furthermore, some crimes take place in the cities but they originate
>> in
>> > neighbouring municipalities where the local police have no jurisdiction
>> > to
>> > intervene. In the same vein, many municipalities currently deplore the
>> > reduction in the number of patrols carried out by the Sûreté du Québec
>> > in
>> > their cities, since their municipal police force was abolished.
>> >
>> > The Rivière-du-Loup region has many unwatched roads and trails in the
>> > Pohénégamook, Témiscouata and Kamouraska areas that can be accessed by
>> > various means of transportation such as four-wheel drive vehicles,
>> > snowmobiles, etc.
>> >
>> > The removal of services inevitably means added costs for our citizens.
>> >
>> > As for Roberval, the priority that the RCMP claims to be giving to the
>> > Aboriginal issue also opens up a number of questions for us. The
>> Aboriginal
>> > communities that are located near urban centres may be properly served,
>> > perhaps, but what about the more northern communities of the Innu, Cree
>> and
>> > Atikamek.
>> >
>> > The demographic statistics are well known: a non-Aboriginal Quebec
>> > family produces 1.43 children per family, whereas Quebec Aboriginal
>> families
>> > produce 4.3 children per family. Thirty percent of the population in
>> > these
>> > communities is under 16 years of age with all the attending social
>> miseries
>> > (alcoholism, substance abuse, suicide, sexual abuse) experienced by such
>> > communities. The RCMP has no known strategy to follow up on these issues
>> > than to close the detachments neighbouring these communities. They
>> > surely
>> do
>> > not realize how fragile the situation is.
>> >
>> > Nobody can be happy about this situation and the presence of the RCMP
>> on
>> > federal lands is essential. The Sûreté du Québec must support the RCMP
>> > and
>> > the Aboriginal police forces but the responsibility for supporting local
>> > police forces rests primarily with the federal government. In this
>> > geographical context, what message does the Canadian government wish to
>> > deliver to the Quebec regions and the Aboriginal communities?
>> >
>> > Lastly, before concluding, I'd like to talk about the Saint-Hyacinthe
>> > region. For a number of years, the Saint-Hyacinthe region has been
>> > contending with organized crime squatting on farmland for the purpose of
>> > growing large amounts of cannabis. With the presence of the RCMP
>> detachment
>> > over the past few years, the situation has greatly improved. The RCMP
>> > represents an important deterrent in the fight against organized crime.
>> The
>> > RCMP and the SQ exchange information almost daily.
>> >
>> > In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, the mayors request that the Solicitor
>> > General decree a moratorium on the decision announced regarding the
>> > reassignment of the personnel of nine RCMP detachments in Quebec,
>> especially
>> > as this decision was made without any real consultation having taken
>> place.
>> > They invite the Solicitor General to review this matter, stay the
>> > decision
>> > and give back to the municipalities the personnel needed to carry out
>> > the
>> > RCMP's mandates.
>> >
>> > Á (1130)
>> >
>> > By closing the nine RCMP detachments in Quebec, the Canadian
>> government
>> > is sending a clear message to criminal groups: "Come out to the regions,
>> > there is no more surveillance." The new policy advocated by the
>> > government
>> > in the RCMP issue seems to be based more on an internal management
>> operation
>> > rather than on a real concern to better protect the borders and help
>> > stop
>> > organized crime and terrorism.
>> >
>> > A complete analysis of criminal movements operating in the regions is
>> > urgently needed, unless one already exists and has been ignored. It
>> > seems
>> > unlikely that the use of border detection will be as efficient and
>> effective
>> > as systematic patrolling. The Americans realized this quickly on
>> > September
>> > 11, 2001. Following the atrocious and tragic events in New York, the
>> > media
>> > brought out the fact that the American administration might have focused
>> too
>> > much on intelligence to the detriment of a more deterrent local
>> > presence.
>> >
>> > No detection surveillance or intelligence-oriented techniques could be
>> > as great a deterrent as a local presence. The minimum number of officers
>> and
>> > necessary funds must be given back to the regions so that we can fight
>> crime
>> > and the resulting social problems effectively. By losing the RCMP
>> personnel
>> > in our municipalities, we lose the synergy with our police forces and
>> > the
>> > stakeholders in the community.
>> >
>> > Everyone is decrying this decision: the mayors of the nine cities
>> > concerned; the MRC prefects; the Association des policiers provinciaux;
>> the
>> > Fédération des policiers et policières municipaux du Québec; the
>> Fraternité
>> > des policiers de la Montérégie; the Association de la Gendarmerie Royale
>> du
>> > Canada au Québec. We are unanimous in requesting that this decision be
>> > reversed, or at the very least that a moratorium be decreed, to
>> > re-examine
>> > the whole situation.
>> >
>> > We request that we be ensured that our taxes provide us with the same
>> > services as elsewhere. Crime and organized crime circles are not
>> > confined
>> to
>> > any regions, cities or borders and do not need a consultation study or
>> > to
>> be
>> > heard by committees in order to act. They are where we are not. They
>> > look
>> > for the weak link. Do not make way for them because, rest assured, they
>> will
>> > come, if they have not already done so.
>> >
>> > Mr. Chairman and committee members, thank you for your attention. With
>> > your permission, I'm going to hand over to the representatives and
>> > mayors
>> > here with me today. They will round out the brief description I've given
>> you
>> > of the regions as a whole. I'll start with the mayor of Rivière-du-Loup,
>> Mr.
>> > D'Amour.
>> >
>> > Á (1135)
>> >
>> >
>> > Mr. Jean D'Amour (Mayor, City of Rivière-du-Loup): Thank you very
>> much,
>> > Mr. Racine. Ladies and gentlemen, first I want to thank you for
>> > receiving
>> us
>> > this morning. This is a particularly important subject for us.
>> >
>> > First, I'll say that the RCMP presence in Rivière-du-Loup dates back
>> to
>> > 1932. At that time, we had nine officers; from nine, the number fell to
>> > seven, then to two. We've finally just been told that, with only two
>> > resource persons, they can't adequately serve the area. I can't do
>> anything
>> > but agree with that. With two persons, how can anyone do a proper job?
>> >
>> > I don't intend to return to what my colleague, Mr. Racine, said a
>> moment
>> > ago about Rivière-du-Loup. Simply to clarify the context, I will say
>> > that
>> > Rivière-du-Loup is roughly 110 kilometers from the Atlantic Provinces
>> > and
>> > approximately 100 kilometers from Maine. We own an airport and have a
>> > deep
>> > water port nearby, the seaport of Gros-Cacouna.
>> >
>> > In short, there is a lot of traffic entering Rivière-du-Loup. With
>> > regard to the centralization of RCMP operations in Rimouski and
>> > Saint-Georges de Beauce, I would point out that Rimouski is
>> > approximately
>> > 120 kilometers from Rivière-du-Loup and Saint-Georges de Beauce 277
>> > kilometers. You can imagine the kind of situation this leads to in
>> > Rivière-du-Loup.
>> >
>> > Mr. Bourduas, who was asked how the RCMP would continue protecting the
>> > roads that are already protected and protecting the 100 or 150 access
>> > ways
>> > scattered over the area which are not, told us that that could be done
>> > electronically. He told us--and I take the liberty of repeating his
>> > words--that access via certain roads was monitored electronically and
>> > that
>> > RCMP officers did checks. They don't move in a case of a deer, but they
>> > do
>> > if they observe regular traffic. Can you imagine a smuggler deciding
>> > that
>> > Tuesday morning at nine o'clock is his day and time? I don't think so.
>> This
>> > situation is causing a lot of concern in Rivière-du-Loup.
>> >
>> > Lastly, let me tell you that, at a time when there has never been so
>> > much drug and narcotic activity in the area, the RCMP, by the actions it
>> is
>> > taking today, that is to say its reassignment process, will jump-start
>> > the
>> > crime industry like never before. This concerns us. Today drugs are
>> > being
>> > found in elementary schools. I don't know whether that disturbs you, but
>> > that concerns me, particularly as a mayor and the father of four
>> > children.
>> >
>> > Now I'm going to talk about the effects of this situation on police
>> ...
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