David Raymond Amos Round 3

The number one hurdle is the inefficient element around the labour market opinion process. Many of the jobs under the NOC categories don't even exist. Many times when you apply, the application simply gets tossed out, and the person who is assessing the application doesn't understand what it takes to be at the level to hire that worker. Once that issue is there to begin with, we can't move forward.

The number two hurdle is the prevailing wage rate. As I explained earlier, if I am paying the worker a base wage in Canada, plus the benefits, the final wage is $18 to $20 an hour. When they're asking us to pay the prevailing wage rates, one has to take into account what it costs to bring the worker here, what it costs to provide the worker with the health and extended benefits program, what it costs to pay the recruiter, and what it costs to retain the worker.

In many cases, when you bring the fully loaded costs to manage the temporary foreign worker program, based on our calculations, it runs 30% to 35% higher than what you will pay to a Canadian worker. How are you going to get an ROI on that?

The third hurdle, as I explained earlier, is the application assessment fee has all of a sudden been doubled. If you file an application, and they don't see eye-to-eye with you, they don't agree with your assessment, and they don't agree with your application, then that application gets rejected. If you have put in 50 applications, $50,000 goes into their coffers and now you have nothing.

The temporary foreign worker program doesn't have to be a cash cow for the federal government. It has to be there for the ease of running a manufacturing policy for Canadian companies, and in our experience, that has not been the case.

As spoken

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Langley—Aldergrove, BC

With the foreign workers you're looking for assistance from, are we talking about skilled or unskilled workers?

As spoken

5:30 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Coast Spas Manufacturing Inc.

We're talking about unskilled workers, but there are other jobs for skilled workers as well.

As spoken

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Langley—Aldergrove, BC

If it's unskilled, is there a time frame where you have to train them and get them up to speed, so they can be productive in your manufacturing facility?

As spoken

5:30 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Coast Spas Manufacturing Inc.

That is correct. There's a time frame to train them and to bring them up to speed. On-board orientation is anywhere between two to eight weeks.

As spoken

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Are there just not enough Canadians willing to do that type of work, or what are the hurdles to get Canadians to work there first?

As spoken

5:30 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Coast Spas Manufacturing Inc.

With all due respect to the local work force available, they simply do not want to come to work in a manufacturing facility to earn a living. We have tried day after day, week after week. For example, I shared the last five years of our attrition and retention data, and we lost 70% of our hires. We hire 10 people, and six or seven will leave after five to seven days, and we're back to square one.

There's a cost, if you hire, train, and retain these people, and now you're spending $500 to $600 over and above that. Every five to six days you're spending the same amount of money in a moving cycle, and you're losing $60,000 to $80,000 within months to hire more people.

As spoken

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

Mark Warawa Langley—Aldergrove, BC

Mr. Chair, have I time for one more question? It's related to the $1,000 fee. It used to be $275. I believe Mr. Hilchie made a comment that he hoped the $1,000 fee would speed up the process.

I think you said you wanted the fee waived. How would the program be funded then if there were no fee?

As spoken

5:35 p.m.
Executive Vice-President, Coast Spas Manufacturing Inc.

We understand there's a cost to administer this program, and we're okay with that. The problem occurs when you double the cost in less than five years, and there's no return to taxpaying, hard-working Canadian companies that are bringing millions and millions of dollars in tax income to the government and employing hundreds and hundreds of people.

If you look at the bigger scheme of things, in Langley, we are bringing in millions and millions of dollars in business to the merchants outside of our Coast Spas group of companies. When you look at the bigger scheme of things, when you raise the application fee on one side, Mr. Warawa, and on the other side there is no return, then the system doesn't balance out. As a result, in my opinion, the temporary foreign program is a broken program. It doesn't work for our manufacturing sector, period.

As spoken

5:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Bryan May

Thank you very much, Mr. Sidhu.

Thank you to all of our panellists here today. We are out of time for this particular panel. We are going to break for a couple of minutes to switch over to the final panel.

I just want to take this opportunity to sincerely thank everybody who came here today. All of you are bringing very diverse perspectives on this issue. It's an incredibly diverse issue, and it's a really serious one that we do need to deal with.

Thank you all for taking the time to be here today.

We're going to break for no more than five minutes, please.

As spoken

5:45 p.m.

Liberal

↓

The Chair Bryan May

Welcome back, everybody.

For our third panel today, we are being visited by Ethel Tungohan, assistant professor, Department of Political Science, at York University. Also present is Ericson Santos De Leon; and from the Maritime Seafood Coalition, Chris LeClair, senior adviser; Jerry Amirault, president, Lobster Processors Association of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick; and coming to us via teleconference, from the Temporary Foreign Workers Association, Francisco Mootoo, member, and Lucio Castracani, community organizer and member.

Thank you all very much for being here today. There are quite a few of you here, so we're going to ask that opening remarks be kept to about seven minutes.

We're going to start with Dr. Tungohan.

Go ahead, please.

As spoken

5:45 p.m.

↓

Ethel Tungohan Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, York University, As an Individual

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, good afternoon.

My name is Dr. Ethel Tungohan. I am an assistant professor in the Department of Political Science at York University. With me today is Ericson De Leon, who is currently a caregiver.

I am here today to talk to you about how the recent changes to the temporary foreign worker program and the caregiver program make workers vulnerable. Thus far we haven't talked about the needs of caregivers, so I'd like the committee to pay attention to the needs of this very vulnerable group.

Over the last seven years, I have conducted interviews with 103 caregiver activists in Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver; 55 focus groups of current and former caregivers in Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Ottawa, Toronto, and Montreal; and 25 focus groups with temporary foreign workers across Alberta. My research partners and I have also conducted surveys of over 600 former caregivers across the country. In these studies, I have found that, first, tying work permits to employers inherently makes workers vulnerable to abuse. This is because these arrangements magnify the power discrepancy between workers and employers. In many cases employers force workers into compliance by threatening to terminate their contracts, which means that workers risk not only losing their jobs but also losing the ability to stay in Canada.

Second, measures to curb abuse, such as workplace inspections and the creation of a temporary foreign worker tip line to report abuse have failed. You can have the biggest fines and the strictest enforcement, but if the end result is that workers are out of jobs and have to leave the country because their employers are banned from hiring foreign workers, workers are not likely to report abuse.

Third, the proposal to make regulated companies hire caregivers directly does not address the immense power discrepancy between workers and employers that I just highlighted. In this scenario workers are still tied to a single employer and work permit with the same power discrepancy. In fact, this proposal may even exacerbate the abuse facing caregivers because caregivers will have to navigate two power relationships: one with the family they are working for and one with their agents. Agents also have a profit motive and may not prioritize workers' well-being. Also, because most provinces do not have clear policies regulating agencies, caregivers are made vulnerable.

Fourth, in cases where there's a technical pathway to permanent residency, as in the case of the caregiver program, workers have found the process to be cumbersome, confusing, and inhumane. For example, immigration officials require caregivers to demonstrate that they will not stay in the country after they finish their contracts, but caregivers do have the right to apply for permanent residency and must at the same time demonstrate their ability to integrate into Canada. These demands are inconsistent and contradictory.

Our studies also reveal a pattern of officials using medical inadmissibility as a blanket reason to deny permanent residency applications. Immigration officers are denying applications without fully considering the specificities of each case. These barriers create undue stress and hardship on caregivers and their families due to family separation. Caregiver advocates indicate that there are 38,000 caregivers waiting to be reunited with their families. In 2016, processing time for peer applications for caregivers is 49 months. This backlog has to be addressed.

To illustrate the human impact of these issues, I would now like to invite my colleague, Ericson De Leon, to tell his story.

As spoken

5:50 p.m.

↓

Ericson Santos De Leon As an Individual

My name is Ericson Santos De Leon. I'm a member of Migrante, in Quebec, or immigrants in Canada. I have a nursing degree from the Philippines and came to Canada in 2009 under the live-in caregiver program. I was able to come here after a friend referred me to an agency in Montreal. The agency told me that they could help me find work as a caregiver if I paid them $4,300. The agency told me they were charging me a high placement fee because people don't like hiring male caregivers. I previously worked in Italy where I was employed by an agency, and I thought that what they said made sense.

When I arrived in Montreal I found myself without a job. My agency paid someone to pretend to be my employer for my papers. For three months I lived on my savings. After three months I was getting desperate. I went to the agency and told them I really needed to work. They found me a job with a family, but it was under the table.

After a year I told them I would report them to the authorities. I said that they had been abusing me, that I had a family to support. They got discouraged and finally fixed my papers. What they did was very wrong. They took advantage of me because they knew that I wanted to come to Canada. With many agents, you are tied to what they want you to do and where they want you to work.

In 2013 I applied for permanent residency, and in 2016 I received a letter saying my application was rejected because my son who has a mild case of Down's syndrome was medically inadmissible. I was surprised because I had already received my CSQ from the Quebec government. I had already saved money for my family's arrival and rented an apartment for us when I received this news.

Immigration officials wrongly assume that all people born with disabilities are a burden. They ignore what the doctors are saying, that my child is leading an independent life. Why is my child being treated differently from normal children? Their decision discriminates against people with disabilities and against caregivers like me who live apart from their families for many years, work hard, and sacrifice so much because of the promise of Canadian citizenship.

As spoken

5:50 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, York University, As an Individual

↓

Thank you, Ericson.

I want to stress that these concerns are not just held by worker advocates. Many employers also see the benefits of improved conditions for workers coming into Canada. Employers need workers who can stay with them in the long term. It is difficult to have to rehire and retrain people. Having an immobile, precarious workforce is in nobody's interest. Hence, I am in full support of proposals to give all workers open permits that do not tie them to their employers. They should also be given pathways to permanent residency. In the history of Canada, people immigrated from different countries to build a nation. They worked in houses, shops, and factories, and on farms and railroads. If they were to come to Canada today, they would be temporary foreign workers. When considering policy changes I urge you, members of the committee, not to lose sight of this fact.

Thank you very much, and I look forward to your questions.

As spoken

5:55 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Bryan May

Thank you.

Now we're going to hear from the Maritime Seafood Coalition, and I believe Mr. LeClair.

As spoken

May 16th, 2016 / 5:55 p.m.

Chris LeClair Senior Advisor, Maritime Seafood Coalition

Thank you very much.

The Maritime Seafood Coalition was established in the summer of 2015. It's a coalition representing seafood processors, harvesters, and the aquaculture sector. It represents the following organizations: PEI Seafood Processors Association; Lobster Processors Association of New Brunswick and Nova Scotia; Prince Edward Island Aquaculture Alliance; Nova Scotia Fish Packers Association; Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association; Maritime Fishermen's Union; Eastern Fishermen’s Federation; and Affiliation of Seafood Producers Association of Nova Scotia.

It's interesting, because it's a group of harvester and processor and aquaculture sectors. The coming together of these elements of the seafood sector indicate the importance of the temporary foreign worker program to the sector.

The coalition has worked with both bureaucratic and elected officials on trying to address some of the reforms that occurred in 2014. We appreciate the work of this committee as part of a broader review of the temporary foreign worker program.

First, I'd like to give you a very brief overview of our sector. Our sector is a highly export-oriented sector. Canadian seafood exports amounted to $5.9 billion in 2015. That accounted for 85% of the products landed and processed.

The Maritimes are a dominant player in that area. In 2015 the three Maritime provinces accounted for 58% of all seafood exports. In this context, the export performance remains strong and aided by the value of the Canadian dollar. As an employer, the seafood sector in Atlantic Canada and Canada is significant, with 80,000 Canadians earning a living from this sector. In the Maritimes, 45,000 do, and lobster is a major focus of that.

Like many industries, the seafood industry draws upon workers from rural communities. The seafood sector is facing increasing challenges with declining labour supply in these rural communities. Our processors routinely face turnover rates of 20% amongst employees. At the same time, and I'm sure this committee will hear this story again and again, our workforce is aging. The majority of employees in the seafood processing sector are over the age of 55. Declining birth rates and out-migration are demographic factors that we are challenged to address.

In response to these challenges, commencing about 2008 the industry began utilizing the temporary foreign worker program as a way to supplement its labour supply. On average, by 2014, 20% to 25% of the overall processing workforce in the case of the lobster industry was made up of temporary foreign workers, but in some plants in rural communities, where labour supply was shorter, that amounted to almost 50%.

The temporary foreign worker changes set in motion in 2014 have had a significant impact on labour supply in our industry, with a 30% overall cap on TFW employment, dropping to 20% in 2016 and ultimately 10% in 2017. According to research carried out for the industry and for the three Maritime provinces, the reduction in this workforce results in and translates into a $123-million reduction in the value of the product that can't be processed and sold because of a lack of labour supply if those lost temporary foreign workers cannot be replaced by local workers.

It needs to be emphasized that our plants go to great lengths to hire Canadians first. Plants have increased wages, expanded benefits, and adopted more flexible work schedules to allow for employees to manage child care and family responsibilities. Some plants provide transportation. In my home province of Prince Edward Island, the industry initiated a bursary program of $1,000 to convince university and college students to spend the summer working in a fish plant.

These reductions in temporary foreign workers that have been imposed on the seafood sector are especially challenging in light of the trade opportunities that exist for Canada, particularly over the last number of years. CETA and the TPP are two trade agreements that hold the promise of significant tariff reductions for Canadian seafood products. However, the industry's ability to grow, to service these export markets and capitalize on these opportunities, is directly impacted by the loss of temporary foreign workers.

In this context, our processors will do well to service existing markets rather than take the opportunity to explore new ones. Simply put, our immigration and labour market policies appear to be working at cross purposes with our trade policy, and in export-oriented sectors like the Maritimes seafood sector, it's our provincial economies that will lose out.

Equally of concern is the manner in which Canada's major competitors in the global seafood market are making it easier rather than more difficult to access migrant workers to expand production. Seafood-producing countries such as Scotland, Norway, and Sweden rely on migrant workers and don't face the kind of caps that were put in place in Canada in 2014. Closer to home, the Department of Homeland Security in the United States announced in December 2015 significant increases in visas for foreign workers in the seafood processing sector.

I will turn it over to Jerry Amirault to talk a little bit about policy.

As spoken

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Bryan May

You have about a minute. I'm afraid he cut into your time there.

As spoken

6 p.m.

Jerry Amirault President, Lobster Processors Association of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, Maritime Seafood Coalition

I'll just skip over it. One of the things we were looking at, just so you understand, is that we are in the same communities that agriculture is in. We are rural based. We go through the same process as them of having to justify bringing in workers, but it's more acceptable for them than for us.

Perhaps I could just get into some of the recommendations we have made in the submission, given the brevity of time. On September 19, 2016, when the minister introduced the changes for the seasonal industries to use 180 days, that was well received, but it by no means got us back. In our sector, 1,200 foreign workers were used in 2014. This year it dropped to 700, that quickly. It has just taken the heart out of the industry.

The difficulty that we run into is that no one seems to understand that it's wild-card species, that it's weather dependent, and that it has to be processed alive. We cannot leave it around. We have the CFIA, Health Canada, and so forth. The recommendations that we've put forward are that, as we go forward, the committees that we're forming together with federal...Service Canada, and IRCC work to find these solutions, whether they be EI-based reforms or whatever. It's in our report to you.

As spoken

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Bryan May

Excellent. I'm sure you'll have some time to elaborate with questions.

Now we're going to move quickly to the Temporary Foreign Workers Association by teleconference with Francisco Mootoo. Are you speaking, sir?

6 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Bryan May

Welcome.

As spoken

6 p.m.
Member, Temporary Foreign Workers Association

Francisco Mootoo

My name is Francisco Mootoo. I am originally from the island of Mauritius. I came to Canada in 2012 as part of the circular migration program as a day labourer for Olymel, at a slaughterhouse in Saint-Esprit, which is about 45 minutes from Montreal.

After one year of experience as a unionized worker, I was able, thanks to my seniority, to apply for an industrial butcher position in the company.

In 2014, the company and I thought I would be able file an application for permanent residence through the Programme de l'expérience québécoise, given that the four-year period set out in the law was drawing to a close for me and that I would no longer be able to continue working.

We were wrong. In 2015, 34 of my colleagues and I were rejected because our national occupation code was no longer valid for applying to the Programme de l'expérience québécoise.

Here, we are still in a good situation. We have been working and living in Quebec for four years. Some of us have even been here for seven years. We have become well integrated, and we are determined to help build a strong society, especially in the regions, which is where we work. In Mauritius, we face a future of unemployment. Indeed, as we have been here for more than four years, we have all lost the jobs we had over there before coming to Quebec. Our permits expire after four years here, so we are then forced to leave Canada.

Many of us have invested in transportation to get us to and from work, given that we are in the regions and that the bus schedules did not meet our needs. We have therefore invested in housing and transportation. Some of us have even started families and had children in Quebec. Despite all of this, they had to leave the country at the end of their contract.

We have contributed a great deal to Canadian society and to our community, and we continue to do so. We settled in the regions and still live there, because we have become well integrated in the place we live.

The company will be expanding, and perhaps by 2017, over 200 jobs will be created. Also, I can say with some pride that is it partly because of us that the company will continue to grow and prosper, because there is a real shortage of workers in the regions.

If there is a labour shortage, I, for one, believe that granting permanent residence upon arrival would help stabilize the system, for business and workers.

That's about all I have to say. I will let my colleague Lucio tell you more about permits.

Translated

6:05 p.m.

Lucio Castracani Community Organizer and Member, Temporary Foreign Workers Association

Good evening everyone.

My name is Lucio Castracani. I will be giving you a brief description of our association and addressing a number of issues we have encountered in the course of our work.

L'Association des travailleuses et travailleurs étrangers temporaires was founded in November 2013 to deal with the increase in this type of recruitment, but also to respond to requests for help we were receiving from temporary foreign workers.

According to statistics on labour market impact assessments in 2014, in Quebec, there were about 16,000 applications, of which 10,000 were from the agricultural sector.

Our association includes members who work not only in the agricultural sector, but also in slaughterhouses, industrial laundry facilities, and landscaping. These workers come from many different countries.

Our experience with members of the association has taught us that there are a good number of problems with the program. Take the case of Francisco, for example, for whom access to permanent residency is difficult. These workers face other problems, such as closed work permits and difficulty accessing health care, in spite of the fact that they pay taxes in Canada.

We also have Guatemalan workers hired as chicken catchers who were forced to continue working by their employers after a workplace accident, despite a doctor's advice to the contrary, which jeopardized their health. Furthermore, when these workers took steps to obtain medical care in Quebec thanks to our support, the employer threatened to deport them.

More recently, we had a case where a Guatemalan worker was deported and kicked out of the program because his employer had decided to grow magic mushrooms. He found himself back in his home country and also in debt, because he had borrowed money to pay the agency in order to come to Canada, when he simply could have changed employers and kept working legally in Canada.

In conclusion, I would say that these stories are not bad apples. They are an expression of structural problems with the program. We think that to resolve these issues, all of the workers need to be given open work permits and permanent residence.

Thank you.

Translated

6:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Bryan May

Thank you very much, both of you.

I would like to now open it up for questions from anyone on our panel.

Starting us off is Mr. Zimmer.

As spoken

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for coming today.

I would like to start off with my first question for you, Chris, and I might just stick with you the whole time. I'll see where the time goes.

I'm looking at a CBC article dated March 2016, I believe. It talks about fish plant issues with temporary foreign workers, and I'll quote it as follows:

“We've heard from groups across Canada that the Temporary Foreign Worker Program needs to change, including from businesses. A small number of businesses in certain sectors tell us they need more flexibility...”.

...Atlantic seafood processors were lobbying government to allow them to hire more foreign workers. Dennis King, executive director of the P.E.I. Seafood Processors Association, said a deal was reached at the end of last month after the Maritime Seafood Coalition met with officials in Ottawa.

The article talks about how the TFW program has been changed and how now there's no further limit on how many TFWs you can hire. That's what the article states.

I'd like to use a comparison. In looking at StatsCan and seeing what the actual unemployment rate is in P.E.I., certainly, as a person from British Columbia, I would say that rates as high as that would be alarming. I believe that the unemployment rate in P.E.I. is 12.1%, and that the other regions in the east are around 8.5%, 9.5%, and 10% in their unemployment rates.

Again, in my riding, it would be alarming that we would even consider hiring temporary foreign workers with an unemployment rate that high. I guess I would just ask you this. Canadians will ask this question. There seem to be enough Canadians to fill those jobs in the east. Why are they not filling these jobs?

As spoken

6:10 p.m.
Senior Advisor, Maritime Seafood Coalition

Chris LeClair

I'm going to let Jerry answer the first part about the changes that were announced to the program, and then I could speak to the Prince Edward Island experience after that if that's okay.

As spoken

6:10 p.m.
President, Lobster Processors Association of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, Maritime Seafood Coalition

The changes to the program were not as holistic as what Dennis quoted. The program is as it is, and the provision of the 120 days would change to 180 days. I know Chris is going to get into the EI. The biggest thing to understand is in the processing we're doing, there isn't a consistent supply of raw material. The standard practice when we do operate, which is from the first of May through to the end of November, is everybody opens a claim when they are working.

In all cases within the Maritimes we have a great number of workers with open claims. They may only get 20 hours or whatever. We all focus on those weeks that could go to 70 hours.

When you're doing the analysis of the EI rates because of the seasonal nature of construction, because of the entertainment or the hospitality trade and fisheries, we end up with a huge number who are working with open claims but show up as unemployed.

As spoken

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC

I would ask you back because what we see in the west and across Canada, maybe even in the east because we get different comments about why we are hiring somebody from another country before we're hiring a Canadian for a particular job.... How would you fix that kind of data collection? That's almost an inaccurate comparison. We're setting ourselves up for this perceived unfairness to Canadians.

As spoken

6:10 p.m.
President, Lobster Processors Association of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, Maritime Seafood Coalition

One of the issues we're looking at now with Service Canada and others is to try to get access to the data.

I chaired the working group, which was federal and provincial labour, and the data wasn't able to be shared through whatever, but agreements have now been reached or nearly reached.

I think it's an educational process. There isn't anybody in any plant who isn't hiring all the time every Canadian who wants to work. We keep conveying that to people, from busing them....

If there's a culture that they don't want to take these jobs, we are international. Our competition is all over the world.

As spoken

6:10 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC

We need to clean up the data, or we need to make EI different on how you qualify or whatever because we want to make sure Canadians are getting the jobs first.

As spoken

6:15 p.m.
President, Lobster Processors Association of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, Maritime Seafood Coalition

Yes. We need to be more transparent. I agree 100%.

As spoken

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC

Thank you for your comments.

I want to talk about the caregivers, especially the way the live-in caregiver program was.

Many friends from my area have had live-in caregivers, and these certainly aren't rich people who are having their kids taken care of by somebody else. These are people with special needs children, or they are adult special needs children. These live-in caregivers are absolutely a godsend to Canadian families.

I've seen and talked to many of these people who absolutely need these caregivers, and credit to you, have been a service to our country in a great way.

As spoken

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Bryan May

Please be very brief.

As spoken

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Bob Zimmer Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC

Yes. Sorry.

If you were to fix the program and make it different, because I see a difference between the two programs, there's a worker program versus a live-in caregiver program. Live-in caregiving is much more long term.

You talked a bit about it. What changes would you recommend to make this better?

As spoken

6:15 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, York University, As an Individual

For the record, I did hand out policy briefs, which I think will be translated into French. They outline in greater detail some of my recommendations.

Canada does have a care crisis. The boomers are getting older. We have an elder care crisis, and people in my generation are having a lot of children so we need to address that care crisis.

One of the main calls for action the caregiver advocates have is to give caregivers landed status upon arrival. The need for care is constant, and giving caregivers landed status upon arrival reduces a lot of the abuse that caregivers face.

This proposal to have regulated companies, in other words agencies, act as caregivers' employers will simply transfer the abusive relationship from families onto agencies. Another proposal the caregiver advocates and researchers such as I are making is this should not happen. This system of transferring employment relationships to regulated companies will exacerbate abuse.

Another proposal is to deal with the backlog. The fact is, and other people have articulated this, and certainly this is the case for Mr. De Leon, caregivers have come to Canada leaving behind their own children to care for Canadian families. The fact that we have a backlog of 49,000 people is absurd.

We all know that family separation is difficult. Caregivers and their children face a lot of anxiety, a lot of mental and emotional health difficulties. We think addressing this backlog and—

As spoken

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Bryan May

Thank you.

As spoken

6:15 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, York University, As an Individual

—putting more resources to processing these applications are important as well. I'm happy that this committee also looks at the rights of people with disabilities.

The fact that there are blanket assumptions being made—

As spoken

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Bryan May

I'm sorry, Doctor, please wrap up.

As spoken

6:15 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, York University, As an Individual

—when it comes to PR applications, that's absurd, and Ericson's story shows that as well.

As spoken

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Bryan May

Thank you. I'm sorry, we do have to move onto the next question.

Mr. Long, please.

As spoken

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

↓

Wayne Long Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to all the presenters this afternoon.

I have to say the testimony, on both sides, the pros and cons, of the TFW program is very compelling. We want to make sure as a committee, certainly, that we get it right, and that we're open and have a transparent discussion.

I'm from Atlantic Canada. I'm from Saint John—Rothesay, and I spent 15 years in the aquaculture industry. Certainly, I know first-hand from living in St. Andrew's and working in St. George's that there were times when there were major labour shortages.

I'll ask one of you the question. How many temporary foreign workers do you think you're going to need, your processors and harvesters, to fill the labour shortage in your industry? What per cent would that be of the workforce, total?

As spoken

6:15 p.m.
President, Lobster Processors Association of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, Maritime Seafood Coalition

It's been running about 20% of the total workforce. It's becoming more prominent as people.... Since you're in New Brunswick, up in the Acadian Peninsula, they didn't have any issues. Even they are starting...as the people are aging. As you know in New Brunswick, more people die than are born. That's joined that party.

The actually number, I think, would be determined by the labour assessments that we're calling for. We don't think there should be one cap for the whole industry in all areas, but it should be taking some of the LMIA data and determining that this particular area requires.... Take Deer Island, which is near you.

As spoken

6:15 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Yes.

As spoken

6:15 p.m.
President, Lobster Processors Association of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, Maritime Seafood Coalition

They've been very successful in permanent residency. They've demonstrated there are not enough people on the island, but it's a very good place to put a plan.

I can't give you a general answer. I'm simply saying we have to change the process in which we determine that number.

As spoken

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Can we just maybe talk about, I guess, from my industry's or from the coalition's perspective, a retention strategy, a training strategy, so ability isn't a barrier? What are you doing to target local workers? Are there campaigns? I know there have been job fairs and stuff like that.

Can you talk a little about what you're doing to attract Canadian workers and retention?

The detail has to start with the youth, seeing what the youths' attitude is.

I know in Nova Scotia they're starting with some video training. Their view of a fish plant maybe a bit dated. The workers themselves respond very positively to having a foreign worker mix in their population. They're members of the community. There are other aspects of it that the community gains by people coming in.

What we've done is change wage scales, looked at the needs. We would love to have people on shift work, but we do not have enough for one shift.

They have educational programs in the schools, orientation within the plants to try to get people through the initial stigma.

As spoken

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Okay. Let's talk about wages. Is a wage increase possible to make the positions more attractive to Canadian workers?

As spoken

6:20 p.m.
President, Lobster Processors Association of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, Maritime Seafood Coalition

The wages have gone up significantly. I say that—

As spoken

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Can you give me a ballpark, where they were paid, say, five years ago, versus now?

As spoken

6:20 p.m.
President, Lobster Processors Association of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, Maritime Seafood Coalition

Again, I'll pick on Deer Island.

As spoken

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Sure.

As spoken

6:20 p.m.
President, Lobster Processors Association of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, Maritime Seafood Coalition

The prevailing wage in Deer Island is about $13.95, and I think the minimum wage in New Brunswick is $10 or $11. So it's significantly over that.

Across the region, I think in Shediac-Cap-Pelé, they're over $12 now. I know that one plant in P.E.I. paid another $900,000 in payroll, and it didn't make any difference, people were coming to work.

We're teaching our kids to be lawyers or doctors, or whatever. At the school level, we think we have to try to influence them. You need a lot of truck drivers. You need a lot of labourers to keep our economy.... There just isn't the critical mass in our populations with the out-migration and the lack of birth rate to fill these jobs.

As spoken

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Thank you.

Can you just give me maybe a sentence or two on how you see the living arrangements for temporary foreign workers?

As spoken

6:20 p.m.
President, Lobster Processors Association of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, Maritime Seafood Coalition

In the smaller villages, some of the people have converted homes to have them in.

In a number of plants, not only Deer Island, they brought in accommodations and created a village for the foreign workers. I know there's one in Pictou. In all instances, they've accommodated them by allowing them to become part of the community. It isn't like an impression that there's 10 people living in a room. They're well-quartered. They're well looked after in the way we would treat any other workers.

As spoken

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Bryan May

Moving on, Ms. Ashton, please.

As spoken

6:20 p.m.

NDP

Niki Ashton Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB

Thank you, Chair, I will be sharing my time with my colleague Jenny Kwan as well.

I want to thank our witnesses for coming in today, and I want to very much thank Dr. Tungohan and Mr. Santos De Leon for coming forward. We're concerned this study will not be spending enough time to understand the caregiver program and the level of exploitation that is taking place as part of this program.

I did want to zero in on some of the comments you already made, Doctor, particularly about the role of recruitment agencies. I'm wondering, given the concern that you've raised about potential exploitation, what do you hope to see from the Minister of Immigration or the Minister of Labour on this front in terms of support for caregivers?

As spoken

6:20 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, York University, As an Individual

I think one of the most important proposals being put on the table by caregiver advocates is, as I said, giving caregivers landed status upon arrival. If that isn't possible, one of the suggestions is to give sectoral specific work permits that aren't tied to their employers, whether that be employment agents, or whether that be families. It's having a caregiver visa. I think there's a lot of merit to this proposal because it also addresses Canadians' caregiving needs, while at the same time respecting workers' needs and not tying them in an abusive exploitative relationship.

I should also add that when it comes to the caregivers that we've spoken to, and Mr. De Leon's story testifies to that, if the working conditions are good, workers will stay. A lot of caregivers are happy to be in Canada, and they're happy to be providing care for Canadian families. Obviously we have to strengthen provincial labour and employment standards, as well, to make sure that their interests are protected.

As spoken

6:25 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC

Thank you very much. I'm Jenny Kwan. I'm with the Immigration and Refugees Citizenship Committee.

I want to start off by saying it's a bit ironic in a way that this committee is dealing with this issue, and yet Minister McCallum has the issue referred to him in his mandate letter. With that being said, I would certainly like to ask the chair to pass on the information in the submission that's being received to our committee for examination as well.

On this question around abuse, Dr. Tungohan, I'm particularly interested in the work you have done. How rampant have you found the abuse to be with caregivers and particularly with the intermediary agency in dealing with the work in trying to refer caregivers to employment?

As spoken

6:25 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, York University, As an Individual

I would say that incidences of abuse are quite rampant. The fact is recruiters here oftentimes have existing relationships with recruiters in other countries. Recruiters in other countries charge caregivers illegal placement fees, but the Canadian government simply cannot enforce policies made in other countries. That's one issue.

Another issue, as Mr. De Leon's story shows, is the issue of charging workers fees that simply are illegal. Even if we do have laws against the charging of recruitment fees, these laws simply aren't enforced. As I've mentioned, this proposal to make the regulated companies into the employers of caregivers simply transfers the power of relationship and doesn't address the power imbalances facing caregivers and their employers.

As spoken

6:25 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC

The Project Guardian proposal is ineffective in other words. Is that correct? What action should the government take? You talked about permitting and so if you can elaborate on that.

As spoken

6:25 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, York University, As an Individual

Sorry, Project Guardian?

As spoken

6:25 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC

Basically it's bringing this intermediary agency to deal as an employer for live-in careworkers.

As spoken

6:25 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, York University, As an Individual

As I've mentioned, caregiver advocates support the provision of landed status upon arrival for caregivers, but if not that, then giving open work permits for caregivers as a caregiver visa that enables caregivers not to be tied to their employers, but also enables Canadians to have their caregiving needs met.

As spoken

6:25 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC

On the 49,000 people who are in the backlog of those waiting, what is the time frame in which a family is waiting to be reunited with their loved ones?

As spoken

6:25 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, York University, As an Individual

Why don't we pass it on to Mr. De Leon?

How long have you been waiting for your papers to get processed?

As spoken

6:25 p.m.
As an Individual

Ericson Santos De Leon

I've been waiting for three years now because I applied in 2013 for my permanent residency and I just received the latest news dated February 18 that my son is medically inadmissible, but I received my CSQ from Quebec. I heard from that so I was a bit surprised by this.

As spoken

6:25 p.m.

NDP

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC

So for at least three years you've been here to take care of someone else's family and yet you're separated from your own family. So no irony there either, I guess, on this program.

On this question in terms of family members, some advocates propose the idea that on acceptance of your application to be a caregiver here your family would be allowed to come as well.

Can you share your thoughts on that?

As spoken

6:25 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, York University, As an Individual

How would you feel about a proposal if your family comes with you immediately upon arrival in Canada?

As spoken

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Bryan May

Briefly, please. Sorry.

As spoken

6:25 p.m.
As an Individual

Ericson Santos De Leon

For sure it will be a big asset if my family comes here. We're both young and we're willing to share our knowledge and talents to share in the community here in Canada.

Jenny Kwan Vancouver East, BC

That would require work permits then as well for anybody who is of adult age?

As spoken

6:25 p.m.
As an Individual

Ericson Santos De Leon

Yes.

As spoken

6:25 p.m.
Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, York University, As an Individual