https://twitter.com/
Replying to @DavidRayAmos @alllibertynews and 49 others
Methinks
Higgy et al must recall I dealt with the lawyer Sen.
Judith Keating when she worked for the Attorney General of NB Trolls such as Dan Short and Scott Bobott can
Google our names N'esy Pas?
https://davidraymondamos3.blogspot.com/2020/09/36-senators-sign-letter-in-support-of.html
36 senators sign letter in support of Clinic 554
Clinic closure would 'impair access to hard won Charter-protected rights,' letter states
CBC News · Posted: Sep 30, 2020 4:01 PM AT
Clinic 554, serves about 3,000 patients as a family practice, and every
service it provides — other than abortion — is covered by medicare, Dr.
Adrian Edgar, who runs the clinic, has said. (Mike Heenan/CBC)
Thirty-six senators have signed a letter in support of Clinic 554 in Fredericton, the only location in New Brunswick that offers surgical abortions outside of hospitals.
The clinic, which also serves as a family practice and a resource centre for LGBTQ2 patients across the province, is expected to close Wednesday due to a lack of government funding.
"The closing of Clinic 554 would impair access to hard won Charter-protected rights," the letter released Tuesday night states.
In 1988, the Supreme Court of Canada granted women the right to choose to have an abortion, without fear of prosecution.
"Yet, access to the reproductive rights conferred to women years ago by the highest court in the Land are still being restricted by provincial regulations and policies," the senators' statement said.
Medicare currently covers only abortions performed at three hospitals in the province, two in Moncton and one in Bathurst.
"While we appreciate that the provision of services per se … is a provincial jurisdiction, the truth is that … the services offered by the clinic are different in nature because they have been prescribed constitutionally by the Supreme Court," said Sen. Judith Keating, one of the five New Brunswick senators who signed the letter.
"So they're not on the same level as other services, and so the obligation of the province is to ensure that proper access is provided."
Instead, the province has "consistently restricted the right to access by imposing some regulatory controls," said Keating, who has legal and constitutional expertise, having served more than 30 years in a variety of roles with the provincial government before her appointment to the Senate in January.
Sen. Judith Keating, who was among the five New Brunswick
senators to sign the letter, was the first woman to serve as deputy
minister of Justice and deputy attorney general of New Brunswick. She
also served as chief legislative counsel and chief legal advisor to the
premier during her more than 30 years with the provincial government. (Senate of Canada)
She was the first woman to serve as deputy minister of Justice and deputy attorney general of New Brunswick. She also served as chief legislative counsel and chief legal advisor to the premier.
Premier Blaine Higgs was unavailable for an interview Wednesday, said spokesperson Nicolle Carlin.
"He doesn't have anything more to say in response than what was said [Monday]," she said in an email.
On Monday, Higgs told reporters he's concerned that funding abortions in private clinics would set a precedent.
"So if we're going to suggest … that it's more cost-effective to offer services in a private clinic, then where does that stop? Does that mean that we should continue to offer more and more services in private clinics and less and less services in public institutions?"
Higgs said it's "a slippery slope. And if you do it for one service, where does it stop?"
Keating disagrees.
"It's not a slippery slope, in my view, because the services and the access to services that we're talking about stem from rights, from granted rights," she said.
"And so it is up to the province, and it's the responsibility of the province to pay for the service when it's required. And that's not what's happened. And that's not what has happened for the last 30 years."
BREAKING: 32 Senators sign a letter of solidarity with New Brunswickers fighting for their right to access abortion services. "The closing of Clinic 554 would impair access to hard won Charter-protected rights." #NB
Kim Pate
@KPateontheHill
Statement: Senators Support Calls to Ensure Access to Reproductive Rights #SenCA #cdnpoli
Fredericton MP Jenica Atwin disputes Higgs's claim that Clinic 554 is a private clinic and will lead to privatizing medical services.
She contends it's a family clinic like any other and that the premier has created a false narrative.
Atwin said she intends to keep pushing the issue with federal Health Minister Patty Hadju and plans to make a statement in the House of Commons on Thursday.
Earlier this year, the federal government found New Brunswick was violating the Canada Health Act by not covering out-of-hospital abortions under medicare and deducted $140,216 from its annual health transfer payments. That's the amount New Brunswickers spent out-of-pocket on abortions at a clinic in 2017, when they were supposed to be covered.
When the COVID-19 pandemic hit, Ottawa decided to reimburse the money because of the pressure the novel coronavirus put on the health system, but said it was temporary and that discussions about reducing barriers to abortion were continuing.
The other New Brunswick senators who signed the letter of support include: René Cormier, Nancy Hartling, Sandra M. Lovelace Nicholas and Pierrette Ringuette.
"Senators should have their voices heard in situations where the curtailment of the exercise of the rights of citizens by any Canadian jurisdiction leads to a continual denial of those rights," the letter states.
"In a Constitutional Democracy such as ours, the substance and intent of Supreme Court decisions must be respected and applied."
The New Brunswick senators who did not sign are: Percy Mockler, Rose-May Poirier, David Richards and Carolyn Stewart Olsen.
Closing date unclear
It's unclear if Clinic 554 is closing Wednesday, as scheduled.
Dr. Adrian Edgar, who runs the clinic, could not immediately be reached for comment.
The clinic's administrator Valerie Edelman could not immediately be reached for comment either.
Edgar has applied to provide temporary visits for a small group of Clinic 554's "most vulnerable family practice patients, including those who require specialized care like abortion access, over the coming weeks to months," according to a post on the clinic's Facebook page on Sept. 23.
"If his application is approved, we will reach out to you," it states.
Last Friday, a group protesting the imminent closure of Clinic 554 had their tents removed from the grounds of the New Brunswick Legislature.
Speaker Daniel Guitard told CBC News on the weekend that he made the decision with the staff and advisory team after being told it was a longstanding practice not to permit tents on the property for security reasons.
277 Comments
Commenting is now closed for this story.
David Amos
Methinks
Higgy et al must recall that I dealt with the questionable lawyer Sen.
Judith Keating when she worked for the Attorney General of NB Anyone can
Google our names N''esy pas?
Ray Oliver
Reply to @David Amos: Methinks you can call Ghostbusters and report back to us you dumpster diving waste of humanityRob Sense
Reply to @Ray Oliver:
Nah dumpsters would be like moving up to middle class for Dave
Nah dumpsters would be like moving up to middle class for Dave
David Amos
Reply to @Rob Sense: Hey Punk Thats Mr Amos to you
David Amos
I must say that not once within all the diatribes on this issues did anyone mention whether Father's have any rights at all.
In my humble opinion if a woman does not wish to raise their child she should at the very least offer the little soul to the Father before she opts to abort..
I must say that not once within all the diatribes on this issues did anyone mention whether Father's have any rights at all.
In my humble opinion if a woman does not wish to raise their child she should at the very least offer the little soul to the Father before she opts to abort..
I did not post this not only because I knew CBC would block it but because the comment section closd on time for a change
Five very long years ago while I was running against Trudeau et al in the election of the 42nd Parliament Linda Gibbons was in the news Need I say I became an instant fan of hers?
Christie Blatchford: This protester has served 10 years and seven months in jail and no one cares
I’ve written about Canadians convicted of gun offences, sex assault, drunk driving, child abuse and manslaughter who have done significantly less time
Christie Blatchford Sep 02, 2015
David Amos
Methinks
Higgy et al must recall that I dealt with the questionable lawyer Sen.
Judith Keating when she worked for the Attorney General of NB Anyone can
Google our names N''esy pas?
David
Stairs
why
are we being held responsible for your choices...each choice one makes
needs to be done responsibly...one chooses to spend money and guess
what...the money is gone....it's not rocket science but then again, we
surely cannot hold anyone responsible for the choices they
make...wow....see that policeman...you had better behave or he will put
you in jail...this is what needs to stop....stop misleading your kids
and teach them about responsible choices...good choices start at home...
David Amos
Reply to @David
Stairs: Methinks in Higgy's Police State you do not have misbehave if
the cops wish to pounce on you. I bet a lot of folks living in and
around Higgy's riding must remember the RCMP harassing and ticketing the
fella drinking his coffee in a Tims parking lot N;esy Pas?
Trust that I know from person experience that the police will falsely arrest you if the "Powers That Be" don't appreciate your politicking
Trust that I know from person experience that the police will falsely arrest you if the "Powers That Be" don't appreciate your politicking
James Risdon
Why am I seeing ads for being Black in Canada every single time I log onto the CBC website?
Is there something special about being Black?
Is there something special about being Black?
David Amos
Reply to @James Risdon: How nasty are you?
Wilson
Rose
I didn't know that there were 36 Senators on the team. Go, Senators!
David Amos
Reply to @Wilson
Rose: Them them to say Hey to Senator Bev Busson the former RCMP
Commissioner and her buddy Trudeau The Younger for me will ya?
Robert Langue
Maybe the 36 senators should pool all their money and buy the clinic?
David Amos
Reply to @Robert Langue: I concur
James Risdon
Reply to @Robert Langue: Why?
Buddy Best
The question should be"Why do we have or need senators in a dictatorship"?
David Amos
Reply to @Buddy Best: Good question Good luck getting an answer
Joe Rootliek
Unfortunately, we cannot vote for a Senator. They should be all elected.
David Amos
Reply to @Joe Rootliek: Harper pretended to think that way EH?
James Risdon
Reply
to @Joe Rootliek: No, they should not. The value of the Canadian Senate
lies precisely in the fact that they are appointed so are free to be a
chamber of sober second thought.
David Amos
Reply to @James Risdon: BS
David Amos
Reply to @James Risdon: How sober is Mike Duffy lately?
Jeff Smith
They can pay for it out of their pockets then. If hospitals support it and we have a hospital in town what is the problem?
Mary Smith
Reply to @Jeff Smith:
There's three hospitals, but two locations: Moncton and Bathurst. It
isn't as simple as going for one appointment like at the clinic where
it's all streamlined for one day. If you go to a hospital it's 3-4
separate appointments, travel time, taking time off work, having to have
someone else drive you because you can't drive after the procedure,
likely staying in a hotel or motel, food while traveling, etc. The
clinic fills the gap for everywhere that isn't Moncton or Bathurst. If
they want to offer the procedure in the Fredericton hospital that's one
thing, but the clinic does a better job too of offering the exact same
service. It should be covered, as there's no reason it shouldn't be.
Marc Martin
Reply to @Jeff Smith: There is funding for it via periquation paiments.
David Amos
Reply to @Jeff Smith: There is none
Luke Armstrong
How about the senators provide the funding?
David Amos
Reply to @Luke Armstrong: Good idea
Dan Short
As Obama said in 2013 "Win an election" (to change policies you disagree with)
As we have just had an election. We've decided for the next four years,
As we have just had an election. We've decided for the next four years,
David Amos
Reply to @Dan Short: I
crossed paths with the Harvard dudes Ambassador Alan Keyes in Beantown
and and his pal Obama in early 2004 when he was an unknown State Senator
in Illinois. They were both campaigning for the seat left open by
Senator Peter Fitzgerald 'who had quit not long after sent him and
Attorney General Ellot Spitzer the same documents and CD I gave the
RCMP, many lawyers and politicians etc in Canada when I ran in the
election of the 38th Parliament
David Amos
Reply to @Dan Short: Do you even know how many elections I ran in?
Ray Oliver
Reply to @David Amos: Methinks hes alot like everyone else on here. He doesn't know nor care
David Amos
Reply to @Ray Oliver: You and the RCMP do
Dan Short
It's
kind of ironic that Senator Keating is demanding this be done, when she
held several high positions of authority in NB government and dint fix
the issue while in power,
David Amos
Reply to @Dan Short:
Methinks she should say hey to Senator Bev Busson for me Higgy et sl
know I have a huge beef with the former Commissioner of the Royal
Canadian Mounted Police N'esy Pas?
David Amos
Reply to @Dan Short: Perhaps you may enjoy searching for the latest Tweets with your name?
Michael
durant
Is New Brunswick the only province in Canada to contravene the Canada Health Act?
Mary Smith
Reply to @Michael
durant: Last time I checked PEI pays for women to come over to NB for
the procedure (but maybe that has changed). Behind PEI, we're one of
the worst for putting barriers in place for women seeking abortions. NB
somewhat recently removed the 2 doctor barrier, so there's that.
Dan Short
Reply to @Michael durant:
A health act that has changed how many times over the years depending on who is in power?
A health act that has changed how many times over the years depending on who is in power?
David Amos
Reply to @Michael
durant: Why would I care in light of the fact that the Feds and Higgy
would not provide me with Medicare and laughed at me for years ever when
I sued the Queen?
Michel
Forgeron
Reply
to @Mary Smith: Abortions have been available on the Island since 2017,
at Prince County Hospital's Women's Wellness Program & Sexual
Health Services in Summerside. I believe the arrangements with The
Moncton Hospital and Halifax are still active. I'm not sure if the QEH
offers abortions. The history is interesting - for the new facility
(Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Charlottetown) to be built, the
Charlottetown Hospital and the Prince Edward Island Hospital had to
agree to close, the Charlottetown Hospital agreed to the closure on
condition that abortions not be available for 30 years.
Mary Smith
Reply to @Michel
Forgeron: Thank you! I haven't dived deep into the abortion access for
the region in a long while, and things do change (albeit very, very
slowly). On PEI is the procedure covered or is it similar to the 554
clinic where there's barriers and a service gap?
Scott
Bobott
Quoted
from some person on Twitter ”I believe Dr. Edgar has explained publicly
that his mandate includes caring for vulnerable patients who need
services such as abortion which are not fully funded through medicare.
The clinic feels it cannot ethically stay open by abandoning abortion to
prioritize one community".
David Amos
Content disabled
Reply to @Scott
Bobott: As you well know you can find yourself quoted within my blog and
this could found in Twitter beginning yesterday EH?
Content disabled
Methinks there must be something in the water in Fat Fred City even the City Council shook its head at their poet last night N'esy Pas?
Content disabled
Methinks there must be something in the water in Fat Fred City even the City Council shook its head at their poet last night N'esy Pas?
David Amos
Reply to @Scott Bobott: Enjoy searching Twitter with your name
James Risdon
Reply
to @Scott Bobott: If the medical clinic's owners feel like it is
unethical to be a medical clinic in New Brunswick, then they should
close their doors.
James Risdon
By
the way, I used to know people in British Columbia, pro-lifers, who
would help out any woman who felt she could not have her baby out of
financial need. That help took various forms. Sometimes it even took the
form of letting the woman live with them for a while.
I don't know if that's something that's done in New Brunswick but, if it isn't, it should.
No woman should ever feel like she has to get an abortion just because of something as silly as financial need. There's plenty of money and resources in the world if we only help each other out when we need the help.
Does anyone know if either pro-lifers or the government or some organization does help women with financial need so they can have their babies if that's the only reason they care considering abortion?
I don't know if that's something that's done in New Brunswick but, if it isn't, it should.
No woman should ever feel like she has to get an abortion just because of something as silly as financial need. There's plenty of money and resources in the world if we only help each other out when we need the help.
Does anyone know if either pro-lifers or the government or some organization does help women with financial need so they can have their babies if that's the only reason they care considering abortion?
Mary Smith
Reply to @James
Risdon: Literally the building beside the 554 clinic, masquerading as
the entrance to the clinic in to lure women in so they can change their
minds.
Mary Smith
Reply to @Mary Smith: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/right-to-life-clinic-554-abortion-1.4768481
James Risdon
Reply to @Mary Smith:
It never occurred to me that the pro-life group's building could be
mistaken for the abortion clinic. I am pretty sure that was not their
intent.
They do want to change women's minds about getting abortions. That much is true.
But that wasn't my question.
My question was whether there are people who are willing to financially help out women who are going to get abortions because they think they cannot feed the baby or otherwise financially provide for him or her.
That's not necessarily a pro-life position. I would like to think that the pro-choice crowd would also not want women to make decisions about abortion out of financial necessity.
Helping expectant mothers with their financial needs is just a pro-woman thing to do, whoever offers that help.
They do want to change women's minds about getting abortions. That much is true.
But that wasn't my question.
My question was whether there are people who are willing to financially help out women who are going to get abortions because they think they cannot feed the baby or otherwise financially provide for him or her.
That's not necessarily a pro-life position. I would like to think that the pro-choice crowd would also not want women to make decisions about abortion out of financial necessity.
Helping expectant mothers with their financial needs is just a pro-woman thing to do, whoever offers that help.
Mary Smith
Reply to @James Risdon: Look at the article again. They matched the siding and design to the clinic.
James Risdon
Reply to @Mary Smith:
CCB has done more to help support women and their babies than ever
before (remember you were so anti-UBI, well, that's actually the most
pro-life program out there).
There's the welfare trap currently for those who cannot afford to have their babies. CCB is great, but if you're living in poverty CCB would not help you enough, you'd be forced into Welfare. The building beside the clinic will probably tell women whatever they want to hear to make them miss the appointment, and because it's time sensitive, be unable to access their abortions.
There's the welfare trap currently for those who cannot afford to have their babies. CCB is great, but if you're living in poverty CCB would not help you enough, you'd be forced into Welfare. The building beside the clinic will probably tell women whatever they want to hear to make them miss the appointment, and because it's time sensitive, be unable to access their abortions.
Dan Short
Reply to @Mary Smith:
You mean the building and services that were there before the original abortion clinic was set up beside it.
You mean the building and services that were there before the original abortion clinic was set up beside it.
Dan Short
Reply to @James Risdon:
James what they aren't telling you is thst the abortion clinic was intentionally set up beside those other services thst were already there and established,
James what they aren't telling you is thst the abortion clinic was intentionally set up beside those other services thst were already there and established,
David Amos
Reply to @Dan Short: The plot thickens
James
Risdon
Reply
to @Mary Smith: So, what you're saying is that there is help for women
to have their babies. You just don't think it's enough.
How much do you think the government should give women to have babies?
How much do you think the government should give women to have babies?
Mary Smith
Reply to @James
Risdon: I'm saying CCB covers the basic costs of having a child, but if
say you're going to be a single parent, you're going to struggle.
I think CCB is at a good place. But if you're just starting out, or a single parent, you'll likely be facing living in poverty because you have to stay home to raise said baby.
If we had UBI (the advocates for it in Canada say the money is there - without raising taxes - for less than the CERB at $1833 per adult over 18 per month) then that would be the amount. Raising everyone up to poverty level, ensuring every Canadian can live with dignity. There's that sweet spot (and CCB and UBI aims to hit that sweet spot) where there isn't incentive to have babies (because you aren't making money off of it, you're not even breaking even and covering basic needs only) and it's not incentive to not work (because UBI is Universal so the more you work the more you earn, opposite to the Welfare poverty trap).
Having affordable day care options for those that could use it, would help. But CCB is really decent -- especially compared to what women used to get just a few years ago (I had my child just a month before CCB came into place, and I could not imagine what women used to have to face, because the amount of help available was grossly insignificant). CCB and eventually a UBI would remove poverty from the equation. So that a woman wouldn't have to use poverty as a factor when seeking an abortion. Financial insecurity isn't the only reason women choose to have an abortion, but it is a factor.
The goal should be: every mother a willing mother, every child a wanted child, no child or Canadian living in poverty. It'd be a better world for all of us if those three things were met.
I think CCB is at a good place. But if you're just starting out, or a single parent, you'll likely be facing living in poverty because you have to stay home to raise said baby.
If we had UBI (the advocates for it in Canada say the money is there - without raising taxes - for less than the CERB at $1833 per adult over 18 per month) then that would be the amount. Raising everyone up to poverty level, ensuring every Canadian can live with dignity. There's that sweet spot (and CCB and UBI aims to hit that sweet spot) where there isn't incentive to have babies (because you aren't making money off of it, you're not even breaking even and covering basic needs only) and it's not incentive to not work (because UBI is Universal so the more you work the more you earn, opposite to the Welfare poverty trap).
Having affordable day care options for those that could use it, would help. But CCB is really decent -- especially compared to what women used to get just a few years ago (I had my child just a month before CCB came into place, and I could not imagine what women used to have to face, because the amount of help available was grossly insignificant). CCB and eventually a UBI would remove poverty from the equation. So that a woman wouldn't have to use poverty as a factor when seeking an abortion. Financial insecurity isn't the only reason women choose to have an abortion, but it is a factor.
The goal should be: every mother a willing mother, every child a wanted child, no child or Canadian living in poverty. It'd be a better world for all of us if those three things were met.
James
Risdon
Reply
to @Mary Smith: How about this? Show me a survey done by a reputable
firm that shows how many women get abortions because they are in poverty
and cannot afford a child even with all the current financial supports,
and then I will consider the idea of providing these women with the
$22,000 per year you want to give them to have and raise their child.
That's fair, right? We need to know why women are getting abortions to be able to provide the solutions to allow them to not abort their children.
That's fair, right? We need to know why women are getting abortions to be able to provide the solutions to allow them to not abort their children.
Kevin Ellerdale
Reply
to @James Risdon: James there are a lot of reasons someone might get an
abortion outside not being able to afford a child. Like not wanting to
be a parent. Or hey, not wanting to be pregnant. Pregnancy can be a
horrible and at times life threatening experience. In any case, no one
owes you ANY explanation of why they need an abortion.
David Amos
Reply to @Kevin Ellerdale: So you say
James
Risdon
Reply
to @Kevin Ellerdale: Actually, yes, they do. The minute they take my
tax dollars to get an abortion, it becomes a matter of public interest
and discussion of it becomes fair game.
Fred Dee
Senators are over paid friends of politico's who are not elected, and represent no one!!!
Add to that Atwin is a member of the Green Party.... a party that can do nothing.... and should be gone with the next election!!
Add to that Atwin is a member of the Green Party.... a party that can do nothing.... and should be gone with the next election!!
Cheryl MacLeod
Reply to @Fred Dee: Yeah, but their not the only ones who agree.
David Amos
Reply to @Cheryl MacLeod: Particularly Higgy's new Health Minister
James
Risdon
Reply to @Fred Dee: That's why you should lobby the government to appoint me to the Senate.
David Amos
Reply to @James Risdon: Methinks you Irving spin doctors certainly think a lot of yourselves N'esy Pas?
Dan Short
I wonder how many people know the clinic is basically in the parking lot of a junior high school.
Scott Bobott
Reply to @Dan Short:
It is a neighbouring property. If you lived next to me I wouldn't say
"you basically live in my front yard".
Dan Short
Reply to @Scott Bobott:
The property used to be part of the school back in the day,
So yes if My grandfather had bought a part of your land, it wouldn't be uncommon to say I practically live in your yard.
The property used to be part of the school back in the day,
So yes if My grandfather had bought a part of your land, it wouldn't be uncommon to say I practically live in your yard.
Scott Bobott
Reply to @Dan Short:
I wouldn't say you live in my yard because it would be incorrect and
insulting to you. Do you have an issue with a medical clinic being next
to a school?
David Amos
Reply to @Dan Short: I
went to High School there along with many evil politicians, bureaucrats
judges and lawyers many of whom are still residing in Fat Fred City and
Saint John
Dan Short
Reply to @Scott Bobott:
You are aware thst before it was made a clinic it was strictly snd solely an abortion clinic for years and years?
You are aware of course that there is a long list of businesses and services not allowed near schools in his province. Many of which are white tame in comparison.
You are also certainly aware having been a kid, the hijinx and bullying kids can do to others for next to know reason, simply needing a topic to use.
You are aware thst before it was made a clinic it was strictly snd solely an abortion clinic for years and years?
You are aware of course that there is a long list of businesses and services not allowed near schools in his province. Many of which are white tame in comparison.
You are also certainly aware having been a kid, the hijinx and bullying kids can do to others for next to know reason, simply needing a topic to use.
John Grail:
A group of entitled, overpaid civil servants trying to tell others what to do..
Ray Oliver
Reply to @John Grail: so. Somewhat like you? Get over your granola eating self
David Amos
Reply
to @John Grail: Methinks Higgy's evil little fanboy is on a roll again
tonight I bet its with the knowledge and assent of his buddies in the
RCMP N'esy Pas?
Rob Sense
Reply to @John Grail:
Right but is Ok for you to tell women what they should do???
Right but is Ok for you to tell women what they should do???
Dan Short
Reply to @Rob Sense:
I dunno... do you tell men they shouldn't kill?
I dunno... do you tell men they shouldn't kill?
James Risdon
Reply
to @Rob Sense: Yes. It is okay for a man or another woman to tell a
woman - or a man - what to do when that women - or man - is doing
something wrong.
Police officers, judges, government inspectors, parking enforcement officers, psychologists, guidance counsellors, teachers, priests, pastors, rabbis and imams do it all the time.
There is no principle in our society that says women get to do whatever they want whenever they want even if it is wrong and no-one has the right to tell them they are wrong.
That's just not a thing.
Police officers, judges, government inspectors, parking enforcement officers, psychologists, guidance counsellors, teachers, priests, pastors, rabbis and imams do it all the time.
There is no principle in our society that says women get to do whatever they want whenever they want even if it is wrong and no-one has the right to tell them they are wrong.
That's just not a thing.
Dan Short
I
have a child that needs a "Regular" procedure That the closest place to
get it is in Montreal. I demand it be funded at a private clinic and
be available on the current Corner I live on. If I move, one should
then be where I now live.
I am being sarcastic of course. I understand logistics and population factors in providing health services.
We have many people in this province that need to travel for an hour just to see a family doctor. So travelling for surgeries is not unrealistic
I am being sarcastic of course. I understand logistics and population factors in providing health services.
We have many people in this province that need to travel for an hour just to see a family doctor. So travelling for surgeries is not unrealistic
David Amos
Reply to @Dan Short: You are not funny
Ray Oliver
Reply to @David Amos: its a shame you bred
Emery Hyslop-Margison
Caligula appointed his horse as a Roman Senator.
Jos Allaire
Reply to @Emery Hyslop-Margison: Keating looks like one.
Scott Bobott
Reply to @Jos Allaire: An extra from TWD.
David Amos
Content disabled
Reply to @Jos Allaire: C'est Vrai Maggie
Joseph Godin
A letter signed by 36 unelected people, representing no one.
Matt Steele
Reply to @Joseph
Godin: ....Senators just represent themselves , and how much money they
can milk out of the Canadian taxpayer for their own benefit . Just a
group of political appointments who are to useless to get a real job .
David Amos
Reply to @Joseph Godin: BINGO
Ray Oliver
Content disabled
Reply to @David Amos: you should've been 554
Dan Lee
Reply to @Ray Oliver:
thats not very nice.......
thats not very nice.......
James Risdon
Reply to @Matt Steele: Now, now. The Senate serves a very important function. It is a chamber of sober second thought.
Rob Sense
Reply to @Joseph Godin:
And you represent who? Pregnant women?
And you represent who? Pregnant women?
Joseph Godin
Reply to @Rob Sense: ??? You should change your first name to Non. I represent the unborn child.
David Amos
Reply to @Joseph Godin: Well Put Sir
Matt
Steele
Senators
receive substantial salaries and expense accounts from the Canadian
taxpayer funded trough ; so if they want to keep the clinic open , why
don't they reach into their own bank accounts , and pay for it
themselves as they obviously have lots of disposable income . N.B. is a
very small province with a massive 14 BILLION dollar debt , and the
province already funds abortion services at three publicly funded
hospitals . The taxpayer funded money well is pretty much totally dry in
N.B.
Jos
Allaire
Reply to @Matt
Steele: A useless institution, just like the malarkey, aka monarchy,
vestiges of a totalitarian system of a bygone era while we pride
ourselves of being a democracy.
David Amos
Reply to @Jos Allaire: C'est Vrai Maggie
Jos
Allaire
Reply to @David Amos: D'accord Sue!
Lou Bell
Reply to @Jos
Allaire: God save the Queen ! Canada's Queen , Queen Elizabeth ! If
anyone doesn't like it , I'd gladly show them the door !!
David Amos
Reply to @Lou Bell: Sue me
SarahRose Werner
Still
wondering why Horizon doesn't offer this procedure in its facilities in
Saint John and Fredericton as well as other locations.
Andre
Legault
Reply to @SarahRose Werner:
Such a simple procedure should be offered at all hospitals.
Such a simple procedure should be offered at all hospitals.
Matt Steele
Reply to @SarahRose
Werner: ....Probably because of the cost and demand ratio . The demand
for abortions in a small province like N.B. probably doesn't justify the
cost in providing the service in every hospital .
Roland Rotondo
Reply to @Matt Steele: how much does it cost to just 'provide' the service?
SarahRose Werner
Reply to @Matt
Steele: Which is why I didn't suggest providing the service at every
hospital, only in the two larger centres of Fredericton and Saint John.
To compare, a woman can have a hysterectomy for reasons other than
cancer in Saint John, Moncton and probably several other hospitals as
well. But because mine was for cancer, it's a more involved operation
and I had to go to Moncton (which is fair). Is the demand for
hysterectomies in NB greater than the demand for abortions?
SarahRose Werner
Reply to @Andre
Legault: I agree that first-trimester abortions are simple and it would
great if they could be offered at all hospitals that have day surgery
facilities. After the first trimester things get trickier.
Realistically, second and third trimester abortions could only be
offered at specific hospitals. Women should be given support and
information that helps them make the decision earlier in the pregnancy.
(Unlike, for example, my sister who was four months gone before she
realized she wasn't just gaining weight!)
David Amos
Reply to @SarahRose Werner: Yea Right
Donald Gallant
They sure kept their moths shut when Gallant and the Liberals were in charge and did nothing.
Now they smear the Conservative.
Hypocrisy in action.
Now they smear the Conservative.
Hypocrisy in action.
Jos Allaire
Reply to @Donald
Gallant: Gallant did not close this clinic. You are twisting the facts,
just like Trump does all the time. It's the mark of CONservatives.
Andre Legault
Reply to @Donald Gallant:
Defend your meaningless position.
Defend your meaningless position.
David Amos
Reply to @Andre Legault: Welcome to the circus
Lou Bell
Perhaps
these patronage appointed Senators can get access to money from the
Feds solely for the clinic to provide these abortions . Showing some
type of relevance may do them good , especially in the eyes of some !
James
Smythe
Reply to @Lou
DumBell: Considering our own Premier who you constantly cheerlead for is
also an Irving patronage appointment, I’m not sure how you think you’re
in a position to speak out against patronage.
David Amos
Reply to @Lou Bell: Cry Me a River Then perhaps the crybaby Senators will Hey to Higgy's hero Mike Duffy for me
Lou Bell
Reply to @James
Smythe: Any intelligent person would realize Higgs was elected ! Only a
Trumper would imply he's there through patronage !
James
Smythe
Reply to @Lou Bell:
Oh Lou, that’s where you’re wrong my friend, because he had 39% of the
popular vote, so in fact only a “Trumper” would advocate for someone who
technically lost the election to form the government, which is exactly
what happened with Trump. In the US the electoral college is at fault
for that, here in Canada it’s the skewed results created by the
first-past-the-post system. As the saying goes: “men lie, women lie,
numbers don’t”. ;)
Dianne MacPherson
How can Dr. Edgar justify closing Clinic 554
while it serves about 3,000 patients as a Family practice
and every service it provides is covered by Medicare
other than abortions ????
while it serves about 3,000 patients as a Family practice
and every service it provides is covered by Medicare
other than abortions ????
Emery
Hyslop-Margison
Reply to @Dianne MacPherson: Medicare does not fund private clinics.
Matt Steele
Reply to @Dianne
MacPherson: ...If the province funds that Clinic , then they will have
to build , and fund a private Clinic in every community in N.B. . So the
question is where will the money come from to build and fund all these
new Clinics when many Hospitals have already been forced to make cuts .
Scott Bobott
Reply to @Emery
Hyslop-Margison: Medicare pays for the visits of the thousands of
patients who access this clinic as their family doctor/general
practitioner
David Amos
Reply to @Scott Bobott: What medicare???
Rj LeBlanc:
One more reason to shut down the useless Senate and get rid of the fat-cats appointed to that establishment.
David Amos
Reply to @Rj LeBlanc: Yup
Dan Lee
il plead for the babies lives.....................
Heather
Lunergan
Reply to @Dan Lee: Good for you. Will you also help support them and their mothers until the child is of age?
Emery Hyslop-Margison
Reply to @Heather
Lunergan: this criteria would mean terminating the lives of many
children in New Brunswick. No one has the right to take the life of
another person. Are fetuses persons? Many believe they are.
Larry Larson
Reply to @Dan Lee: What babies are you talking about?
Larry Larson
Reply to @Emery Hyslop-Margison: The law says they are not.
Heather Lunergan
Reply to @Emery
Hyslop-Margison: I'm not arguing when "life" begins (it can, and does,
start in a petri dish for some couples), and my concern is legal,
(abortion is legal in Canada ... it's a medical procedure covered by the
Canada Health Act) not "moral" (what I believe is irrelevant to law, so
yes, I can be fined for driving without a license, or jailed because I
hit my son who is "unruly.)
My concern is with the mother and the baby. Who supports them, after the birth? Who pays the rent, interacts with the father for support, provides childcare so a mother can work to feed the baby and herself, and frankly, why is it anyone's business other than, as the Supreme Court of Canada once said, "that of a woman, her doctor and her God?" (1994 R vs Morgentaler)
My concern is with the mother and the baby. Who supports them, after the birth? Who pays the rent, interacts with the father for support, provides childcare so a mother can work to feed the baby and herself, and frankly, why is it anyone's business other than, as the Supreme Court of Canada once said, "that of a woman, her doctor and her God?" (1994 R vs Morgentaler)
Dan Lee
Reply to @Larry Larson:
the ones that are being aborted.........
the ones that are being aborted.........
Dan Lee
Reply to @Larry Larson:
the law...which law...the ones that protect black people...the one protecting the natives from fishing ...which was given by the supreme court......the one protecting people from angry cops.........the law is made by people.....
the law...which law...the ones that protect black people...the one protecting the natives from fishing ...which was given by the supreme court......the one protecting people from angry cops.........the law is made by people.....
David Amos
Reply to @Dan Lee: Me Too
Dan Lee
Reply to @Heather Lunergan:
i am supporting them...imuch prefer my tax dollars going to a living being than killing one
i am supporting them...imuch prefer my tax dollars going to a living being than killing one
David Amos
Reply to @Larry Larson: There is no law
David Amos
Content disabled
Reply to @Dan Lee: Me TooJames Risdon
Reply to @Heather
Lunergan: Are you claiming that women are incapable of assuming their
responsibilities as adults and need to rely on others, much like
children rely on their parents?
David Amos
Reply to @Dan Lee: Me Too
Jason
Inness
I
don't get this issue at all. Other provinces do not have these private
clinics providing medical procedures (NS and PEI don't), so this cannot
be a constitutional requirement on provinces to fund them. We are not
allowed to have private clinics billing the medicare system for things
like diagnostic services (MRIs for example) or medical surgeries (hip
replacements for example). What is the argument that this clinic should
get public money for providing services that are also provided by the
public system?Heather Lunergan
Reply to @Jason
Inness: Well, basically the argument is that the procedure is "not"
available in hospitals. Even PEI, long a holdout in allowing abortions,
has a service similar to Clinic 554 (except it's government run, not
private). So, while a woman from "west of the St John River" cannot
access abortion without medical sign-off by 2 doctors, women from PEI
can have an abortion paid for by PEI if it is performed in Moncton or
Halifax. Assuming the woman can get to and from a provider. (early, by
the way, ie, before 12 weeks). (https://www.princeedwardisland.ca/en/information/health-pei/abortion-services
Jason
Inness
Reply to @Heather
Lunergan: OK. So PEI sends their patients to Moncton for abortion
services. This clinic isn't in Moncton, and there is no private clinic
in Moncton providing these services. So, I assume that the patients
coming from PEI are having the services provided in a hospital. If PEI
patients can have this done in a hospital, why can NB patients not have
this done in a hospital?
As far as any other services this clinic provides, if they are covered by medicare, like other clinics, then there is no reason for this clinic to close.
As far as any other services this clinic provides, if they are covered by medicare, like other clinics, then there is no reason for this clinic to close.
Heather Lunergan
Reply to @Jason
Inness: I agree. I don't understand why Higgs has made such an issue of
abortion, which, as we know, is only one service provided by Clinic 554.
The question, I suspect, is more complex - it may involve medicare
billing, or payment times vs when the rent is due or maybe, the doctor
would like to have a salary rather than (as I understand he does)
covering the cost of abortions himself when a woman cannot pay and
Medicare won't. Good topic ... wish the politicians would talk about it
as lucidly as we do on this thread.
David Amos
Reply to @Heather Lunergan: Methinks you don't know Higgy very well N'esy Pas?
James Edward
Are
senators appointed? or elected ?...as a bunch of patronage appointees,
no matter what the topic no one should care what these golden parachute
bureaucrats have to say.
David Amos
Reply to @James Edward: I concur
Steve
Morningstar
I'll
plead ignorance.. but instead of fighting to fund a private clinic,
wouldn't it make more sense to just have the procedure available at the
hospital. This also allows for much better care in the rare event that
something goes wrong. I'm assuming if there is an adverse event at the
clinic they call the ambulance to move the individual to the hospital
anyway.
JOhn D Bond:
Reply to @Steve Morningstar: Well said and it makes perfect sense.
Tristin Time
Reply to @Steve
Morningstar: Exactly! The biggest reason why people want a private
clinic is to avoid the process of 2 medical physicians agreeing the
procedure should be done. Most are denied then they go to a private
"Walk-in" no questions asked clinic. As long as my tax dollars are not
being used and it's a patient non reburseably trans-action, let them
have it.
Beverley Kernan
Reply to @Tristin Time:
Requiring 2 medical physicians to agree to the procedure was rescinded in 2015 by the Gallant government.
Requiring 2 medical physicians to agree to the procedure was rescinded in 2015 by the Gallant government.
Heather
Lunergan
Reply to @Steve
Morningstar: Rembember that Clinic 554 has 3K clients ... providing
abortions is "not" the focus of the clinic. And yes, hospitals are a
logical place for a surgical procedure to be done. If someone could
explain that to the Premier, it would be amazingly helpful for everyone.
Emery
Hyslop-Margison
Reply to @Steve Morningstar: how about educating people on the consequences of having unprotected sex?
Heather
Lunergan
Reply to @Emery
Hyslop-Margison: I agree, people should understand that. But, what about
the 12 year old who was raped by a relative or the 16 year old whose
pimp will be very upset if she isn't available? I wish I was being
facetious...
Scott Bobott
Reply to @Heather
Lunergan: "Rembember that Clinic 554 has 3K clients ... providing
abortions is "not" the focus of the clinic. " YES! That not-so-minor
detail seems to be lost on many people who are chiming in about this.
David Amos
Reply to @Scott Bobott: I don't care
David Amos
Reply to @David Amos: Furthermore why should I?
Nobody dares to deny the fact that Higgy et al have denied me the right to free health care for years and I have the emergency room bills and doctor fees to prove it.
Nobody dares to deny the fact that Higgy et al have denied me the right to free health care for years and I have the emergency room bills and doctor fees to prove it.
Scott Bobott
Reply to @David Amos: I think nobody dares because nobody cares about your personal failings, is that not so.
David Amos
Reply to @Scott Bobott: You just proved my point in spades
James Risdon
Reply
to @Scott Bobott: If Clinic 554 offers a wide range of medical
services, then that clinic should be able, as are other medical clinics
in New Brunswick, to stay afloat with the revenue from those other
services.
Heather Lunergan
"In
New Brunswick, abortions are only offered in three locations because
previous provincial governments have not repealed a regulation, known as
Regulation 84-20, banning the funding of abortions outside of
hospitals.
New Brunswick is the only province in Canada that does not fund abortions outside of hospitals, while Clinic 554 is the only location that offers the medical procedure outside of a hospital in the province."
Why has Regulation 84-20 (from the early 1980s) not been repealed? It directly defies Health Care guidelines, by the way.
Source: https://globalnews.ca/news/7354039/waitlist-doctor-clinic-554/ « less
I told you this out of the gate Correct?
Theo Trapper
Allow voices you don't agree with to speak. It doesn't matter what side of any argument is presented, there is absolutely nothing that is so sacred of a topic to ban speech.
David Amos
Content disabled
Reply to @Theo Trapper: I Wholeheartedly Agree Sir
New Brunswick is the only province in Canada that does not fund abortions outside of hospitals, while Clinic 554 is the only location that offers the medical procedure outside of a hospital in the province."
Why has Regulation 84-20 (from the early 1980s) not been repealed? It directly defies Health Care guidelines, by the way.
Source: https://globalnews.ca/news/7354039/waitlist-doctor-clinic-554/ « less
David Amos
Reply to @Heather Lunergan: Methinks you are flogging a dead horse N'esy Pas?Scott
Bobott
Reply to @David Amos: Are you saying you want her to stop talking about this?
David Amos
Reply to @Scott
Bobott: I don't care However unlike the fake left I do believe in free
speech. Hence the lady has my blessings to go on and on boring people in
a domain financed by my tax dollars that is not used to provide me with
the health care she laments about and that I am entitled to as well I told you this out of the gate Correct?
David Amos
Content disabled
Reply to @Scott Bobott: Enjoy a little Deja Vu form a comment section on this topic that closed earlier today Theo Trapper
Allow voices you don't agree with to speak. It doesn't matter what side of any argument is presented, there is absolutely nothing that is so sacred of a topic to ban speech.
David Amos
Content disabled
Reply to @Theo Trapper: I Wholeheartedly Agree Sir
Reply to @David Amos:
I think it is just easier for me to say "Correct, sir" even though I
have no idea what "it" or "gate" you are referencing, is it not so?
Scott Bobott
Reply
to @David Amos: I think it is just easier for me to say "Correct, sir"
even though I have no idea what "it" or "gate" you are referencing, is
it not so?
Scott Bobott
Reply to @Heather
Lunergan: I would appreciate any links you could provide regarding the
history of 554... when it opened, who established the clinic, did they
know when they opened that abortion services would not be corvered, etc.
I am having trouble finding any of that information.
David Amos
Reply to @Scott Bobott: YOUR words not mine
"Reply to @David Amos: I think nobody dares because nobody cares about your personal failings, is that not so."
"Reply to @David Amos: I think nobody dares because nobody cares about your personal failings, is that not so."
Scott Bobott
Reply to @David Amos:
I think, yeah I said that. I am sorry. That was not nice of me to say. I
apologize to myself for breaking my rule of not engaging with your
type, is that not so?
David Amos
Reply to @Scott Bobott: What is my TYPE?
David Amos
Reply to @Scott Bobott: More importantly are you using your true name as per the rules of this domain?
James Risdon
Reply
to @Heather Lunergan: If an abortion is to be performed, it makes much
more sense from the vantage point of the health of the woman for that
abortion to be done in a hospital which has all the necessary equipment
and personnel to handle emergencies arising from complications rather
than in a private clinic with limited medical resources.
These urgent cries to have abortions in a private clinic are essentially a call to reduce the quality of healthcare for women seeking abortions.
Why should women settle for less than the best healthcare possible? Why should they not be served in fully-equipped hospitals rather than private clinics that will then have to rush them to the nearest hospital if there are emergencies due to complications?
The calls to fund Clinic 554 to perform abortions makes absolutely no sense whatsoever from a healthcare perspective.
If pro-choice advocates were really and truly concerned about the extra distance women have to travel to Moncton, it would make far more sense for them to ask that abortions be performed at the Dr. Everett Chalmers Regional Hospital rather than Clinic 554 and for one of the two Moncton hospitals to stop offering this service.
That would be consistent with trying to offer abortions under the best possible conditions for these women.
These urgent cries to have abortions in a private clinic are essentially a call to reduce the quality of healthcare for women seeking abortions.
Why should women settle for less than the best healthcare possible? Why should they not be served in fully-equipped hospitals rather than private clinics that will then have to rush them to the nearest hospital if there are emergencies due to complications?
The calls to fund Clinic 554 to perform abortions makes absolutely no sense whatsoever from a healthcare perspective.
If pro-choice advocates were really and truly concerned about the extra distance women have to travel to Moncton, it would make far more sense for them to ask that abortions be performed at the Dr. Everett Chalmers Regional Hospital rather than Clinic 554 and for one of the two Moncton hospitals to stop offering this service.
That would be consistent with trying to offer abortions under the best possible conditions for these women.
Mary Smith
Reply to @James Risdon: Call a spade a spade. You're pro-life and want barriers in place for women to deny them access.
David Amos
Reply to @Mary Smith:
Higgy et al know that I am Pro Life Do you dare to try to argue me
about the killing of the unborn instead of a very snobby former Irving
media spin doctor?
James Risdon
Reply to @Mary Smith: I do. I am pro-life and would make abortion illegal in a heartbeat if I could.
David Amos
Reply to @James Risdon: Yea Right but only if you could make yourself famous in doing so
Michel Forgeron
Reply
to @Heather Lunergan: Ideology. I think our Premier is anti-abortion, a
brick wall that will not cave on this issue. And there is much left
over hate of Morgentaler.
Heather Lunergan
Just
for the record...I have sensed, for decades, that there is an
underlying assumption (false, as most are) that abortion is a form of
birth control. Good Grief. A 30 year old woman with 5 kids, whose
husband uses a condom that breaks, a 13 year old raped by a relative, a
young woman driven to prostitution to support her drug habit, and yes, a
24 who, in spite of being careful, has to choose between graduate
school and becoming a single mother. These are the people who need
medical abortions. Yes, every woman should control her body, but let's
get over this idea that abortion is anything other than a live-changing,
emotional and physical decision that no woman will ever forget/be
forgiven for/forgive herself for, in some way.
David Amos
Reply to @Heather Lunergan: So you say
Dan Short
Reply to @Heather Lunergan:
Instead of cherry picking sob stories. Can you provide accurate data and totals for the reasons for abortions in NB,
Instead of cherry picking sob stories. Can you provide accurate data and totals for the reasons for abortions in NB,
John Grail
Reply to @Dan Short: It has been proven that most abortions are convenience abortions.
JOhn D Bond
Reply to @Dan Short:
Maybe a better question would be for you to provide stats on the number
of abortions in the province by reason as opposed to assuming the cause
and effect?Perhaps to the point, they are covered procedures by health
Canada. The province was found to be rationing the services by Health
Canada recently. Why would the province choose to restrict access to
services for a procedure that is covered by the Health Act. That is
really the issue
JOhn D Bond
Reply to @John Grail: Show the stats John
Dan Short
Reply to @JOhn D Bond:
You are entitled to your issues, I to mine.
As I posted my current issue is wanting to see a breakdown of the reasons for the abortion.
I don't really care what is or isn't allowed. As I'm not addressing that issue,
You are entitled to your issues, I to mine.
As I posted my current issue is wanting to see a breakdown of the reasons for the abortion.
I don't really care what is or isn't allowed. As I'm not addressing that issue,
JOhn D Bond
Reply to @Dan Short:
Question Dan. If it is a woman's right to determine if she wants one or
not. What is the value of understanding the composition of the
procedures performs. It is either the woman's legitimate right or not.
Btw I have searched for referential information by reason in the past.
It is not tracked. There are provincial breakdowns on the numbers each
year which does not provide any insight but they are on the decline
Dan Short
Reply to @Heather Lunergan:
Then maybe, we should be spending the money to address the causes of needing an abortion, instead of it getting to the stage of spending money on abortions,
If you want to change a system, fix the roots.
Then maybe, we should be spending the money to address the causes of needing an abortion, instead of it getting to the stage of spending money on abortions,
If you want to change a system, fix the roots.
Dan Short
Reply to @JOhn D Bond:
The data can be used to fix systematic issues thst lead to one needing abortions. Having an abortion is not an easy thing, so the best idea is to reduce the need for them. Not being in a position to need one, really is the best health for a woman.
The data can be used to fix systematic issues thst lead to one needing abortions. Having an abortion is not an easy thing, so the best idea is to reduce the need for them. Not being in a position to need one, really is the best health for a woman.
Heather Lunergan
Reply to @Dan Short:
No, I can't. Spinal Bifida confirmed on a 14 week ultrasound?
Preemclampia? No hearthbeat, at 6 months, after one has been recorded
for 11 weeks? A young teenager raped? Seriously, do you really need to
know that "why?"
Heather Lunergan
Reply to @Dan Short:
Both of my grandchildren (both adults now) were diagnosed with
potential Spinal Bifida at 12 weeks and their parents said "no." Please,
be respectful.
JOhn D Bond
Reply to @Dan Short: I
would disagree. There are so many reasons a person can make that
choice, birth control is never 100% and abstinence is not a viable
solution.
Preventative measures for something that is a Personal Choice is more like Big Brother telling people what to do. The point is, it is a covered procedure in the Health Act. A woman's right to choose is not currently in debate by the Feds ( the only level that can change the Health act). At this point stats, rational is moot. In 2018 there were 507 procedures performed in the province. We are not talking about something that is costing millions of dollars a year. So this issue with Higgs is clearly not a monetary issue. But something else
Preventative measures for something that is a Personal Choice is more like Big Brother telling people what to do. The point is, it is a covered procedure in the Health Act. A woman's right to choose is not currently in debate by the Feds ( the only level that can change the Health act). At this point stats, rational is moot. In 2018 there were 507 procedures performed in the province. We are not talking about something that is costing millions of dollars a year. So this issue with Higgs is clearly not a monetary issue. But something else
Heather Lunergan
Reply to @John Grail: By whom? Show me some published stats, please.
Dan Short
Reply to @JOhn D Bond:
"abstinence is not a viable solution"
In your opinion.
"abstinence is not a viable solution"
In your opinion.
JOhn D Bond
Reply to @Dan Short:
No on that issue am pretty sure that the Majority of Humanity would
agree that it is not an option. Otherwise humanity would simply abstain
itself out of existence.
Dan Short
Reply to @Heather Lunergan:
I'm not sure how I was disrespectful. I simply as,Ed for some actual data as to why,
There are of course a thousand and one reasons why. But there will also be some common threads that can be addressed.
, which can lead to a reduction in the need for abortions.
We are raising a disabled child. It was unknown at the time of a genetic issue. While the child is doing superb and lives as normal S life as they can - we decided to not burden any more future kids with a disability, there are ways to do so, including abstinence and it doesn't mean we love each other less.
I'm not sure how I was disrespectful. I simply as,Ed for some actual data as to why,
There are of course a thousand and one reasons why. But there will also be some common threads that can be addressed.
, which can lead to a reduction in the need for abortions.
We are raising a disabled child. It was unknown at the time of a genetic issue. While the child is doing superb and lives as normal S life as they can - we decided to not burden any more future kids with a disability, there are ways to do so, including abstinence and it doesn't mean we love each other less.
Dan Short
Reply to @JOhn D Bond:
Hardly, as there are certainly many people that do want children,
Hardly, as there are certainly many people that do want children,
JOhn D Bond
Reply to @Dan Short:
Lets go back to the rule of law currently that provides the Woman the
Right to Choose. what does that have to do with what others want.
Heather Lunergan
Reply to @David Amos:
How many times have you dealt with a woman who has decided to, or has
had, an abortion? (at least 2 dozen, in may case, over 50 years).
Hopefully not that many, and I sincerely hope it has not been part of your family's reality.
Hopefully not that many, and I sincerely hope it has not been part of your family's reality.
James
Risdon
Reply to @Heather
Lunergan: No, we do not need to know why. Abortion is the killing of an
innocent human being. It is immoral and should be illegal. It should at
the very least be regulated by some federal law. It isn't.
Given that Canada has opted to have this Wild West approach to abortion and allow any abortion for any reason or no reason at all at the mother's request, then seeking to know the reasons is immaterial.
Once Canada accepts abortion, then it has accepted the killing of innocent unborn babies and no reason is sufficient or necessary for that.
This, however, is not what this story is about. This story is not about extending or restricting abortion. it is about deciding where those abortions should be performed.
For reasons of the mother's health, the best place to perform an abortion is in a fully-equipped hospital with a full array of medical professionals to help the woman should an emergency arise from complications during the abortion. It is far better to have the woman already at the hospital so she can be helped immediately than to have her at a private clinic that will then have to call an ambulance and wait until she can be brought to a hospital for care during such an emergency.
Clinic 554 or any private clinic in New Brunswick should not be performing abortions as they cannot provide as great a standard of care for women in event of such emergencies.
Now, a more reasonable thing to discuss is whether a Fredericton hospital should also offer abortions, perhaps instead of two hospitals providing that service in Moncton.
That would be a legitimate discussion.
Given that Canada has opted to have this Wild West approach to abortion and allow any abortion for any reason or no reason at all at the mother's request, then seeking to know the reasons is immaterial.
Once Canada accepts abortion, then it has accepted the killing of innocent unborn babies and no reason is sufficient or necessary for that.
This, however, is not what this story is about. This story is not about extending or restricting abortion. it is about deciding where those abortions should be performed.
For reasons of the mother's health, the best place to perform an abortion is in a fully-equipped hospital with a full array of medical professionals to help the woman should an emergency arise from complications during the abortion. It is far better to have the woman already at the hospital so she can be helped immediately than to have her at a private clinic that will then have to call an ambulance and wait until she can be brought to a hospital for care during such an emergency.
Clinic 554 or any private clinic in New Brunswick should not be performing abortions as they cannot provide as great a standard of care for women in event of such emergencies.
Now, a more reasonable thing to discuss is whether a Fredericton hospital should also offer abortions, perhaps instead of two hospitals providing that service in Moncton.
That would be a legitimate discussion.
Dan Short
Reply to @JOhn D Bond:
Not what this story is about,
Not what this story is about,
JOhn D Bond
Reply to @James
Risdon: James I would agree with the later part of your statment.
Opening up access in the various regions in hospitals is the best answer
without a doubt. One has to wonder why the government has not done
this, that would address the issue.
JOhn D Bond
Reply to @Dan Short:
Correct it was in direct response to your comment "Hardly, as there are
certainly many people that do want children, " Important to stay in one
lane.
Dan Short
Reply to @JOhn D Bond:
Which was a response to you benging up no children ever again in the world.
Which was a response to you benging up no children ever again in the world.
James
Risdon
Reply to @JOhn D Bond:
I can't speak for the government on this but it is clear that there is a
certain scale that has to be reached before it makes sense to offer a
service. A hamlet might not even have a barber shop or convenience
store. It grows in size, becomes a town and then it has a few stores,
services, maybe a medical clinic. It grows again and gets a hospital.
At some point, there has to be a cut-off, a reasonable amount of population in the catchment area, to offer a service. So, for that reason, dental implants are not provided in, say, Dunlop, but they are provided in Moncton. Specializations in serious childhood illnesses might not be offered in Moncton, but they are at the IWK.
I imagine there is a number of some kind to determine how many abortions are demanded in an area before the service will be provided there.
It seems to me that either Saint John or Fredericton would be likely locations for abortion services in other hospitals, certainly before they would be expanded to smaller communities.
Mind you, politics also enters into the mix and sometimes funding for government projects is based more on voting patterns than common sense.
At some point, there has to be a cut-off, a reasonable amount of population in the catchment area, to offer a service. So, for that reason, dental implants are not provided in, say, Dunlop, but they are provided in Moncton. Specializations in serious childhood illnesses might not be offered in Moncton, but they are at the IWK.
I imagine there is a number of some kind to determine how many abortions are demanded in an area before the service will be provided there.
It seems to me that either Saint John or Fredericton would be likely locations for abortion services in other hospitals, certainly before they would be expanded to smaller communities.
Mind you, politics also enters into the mix and sometimes funding for government projects is based more on voting patterns than common sense.
David Amos
Reply to @Heather Lunergan: How many times have you dealt with a woman who has decided to, or has had, an abortion?
THATS DEFINITELY NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
THATS DEFINITELY NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS
David Amos
Reply to @Heather
Lunergan: HOW MANY LAWYERS HAVE YOU SUED? AND HOW MANY TIMES HAVE GONE
TO JAIL FOR DOING SO?? AND IN RETURN FOR THAT MALICE HOW MANY TIMES
HAVE YOU RUN FOR PUBLIC????
JOhn D Bond
Reply to @Dan Short: What planet are you on. I never brought that up. so
JOhn D Bond
Reply to @James
Risdon: Again James I would agree, having a hospital provide the
services in Freddy would be a good start and put to bed the issue.
Buddy Best
Reply
to @Heather Lunergan: 100,000 abortions a year in this country is not
an accident. Many are repeat offenders. Prostitution is a choice. Men
don't have that asset in 90% of cases. Class action for those devices
that fail. There is a better way.
David Amos
Reply
to @JOhn D Bond: Trust that for the benefit of the unborn I am never
putting this issue to bed until they are put to bed by loving parents
instead being aborted and disposed of or worse yet having of some of
their remains being used for profit by malicious corporate entries.
Earlier you said
"Lets go back to the rule of law"
What rules are you referring to? FYI Rule 55 was pulled on me in the Federal Court of Appeal in Fat Fred City. Trust that I am not done with this nonsense
Federal Courts Rules. SOR/2004-283, s. 2
1.1 (1) These Rules apply to all proceedings in the Federal Court of Appeal and the Federal Court unless otherwise provided by or under an Act of Parliament.
(2) In the event of any inconsistency between these Rules and an Act of Parliament or a regulation made under such an Act, that Act or regulation prevails to the extent of the inconsistency. SOR/2004-283, s. 2
55 In special circumstances, in a proceeding, the Court may vary a rule or dispense with compliance with a rule. SOR/2004-283, s. 11
Methinks I have the right to believe that there is no " no rule of law" in our purportedly profound "Just Democracy" N'esy Pas?
Earlier you said
"Lets go back to the rule of law"
What rules are you referring to? FYI Rule 55 was pulled on me in the Federal Court of Appeal in Fat Fred City. Trust that I am not done with this nonsense
Federal Courts Rules. SOR/2004-283, s. 2
1.1 (1) These Rules apply to all proceedings in the Federal Court of Appeal and the Federal Court unless otherwise provided by or under an Act of Parliament.
(2) In the event of any inconsistency between these Rules and an Act of Parliament or a regulation made under such an Act, that Act or regulation prevails to the extent of the inconsistency. SOR/2004-283, s. 2
55 In special circumstances, in a proceeding, the Court may vary a rule or dispense with compliance with a rule. SOR/2004-283, s. 11
Methinks I have the right to believe that there is no " no rule of law" in our purportedly profound "Just Democracy" N'esy Pas?
James Risdon
Mary Smith
You're pretending to care about women and speak for women, by denying women access. The clinic offers the very best medical care, just as the hospital does.
All of those Canadian senators are barking up the wrong tree. This is
not a question of access to abortion. It is nothing more than a private
business trying to get its hands on taxpayer dollars and using an
ideologically-driven agenda to pressure the government to do that.
Clinic 554 has to be the only medical clinic in New Brunswick that
cannot manage to survive without those taxpayer dollars.
Every doctor in New Brunswick seems to be doing very well financially, thank you very much.
Perhaps the better question is: Why can't the Clinic 554 medical clinic attract enough patients to keep its doors open without taxpayer dollars?
Every doctor in New Brunswick seems to be doing very well financially, thank you very much.
Perhaps the better question is: Why can't the Clinic 554 medical clinic attract enough patients to keep its doors open without taxpayer dollars?
Dan Short
Reply to @James Risdon:
I wonder how many of the senators are "non liberal" liberals that signed it.
I wonder how many of the senators are "non liberal" liberals that signed it.
James Risdon
Reply to @Dan Short: I don't know what a non-liberal liberal is.
Dan Short
Reply to @James Risdon:
All the so called non partisan senators Trudeau appointed.
All the so called non partisan senators Trudeau appointed.
James Risdon
Reply to @Dan Short:
If they are being partisan, that's a shame. The Senate is supposed to be
a chamber of sober second thought, freed of the possibility of mob
rule.
JOhn D
Bond
Reply to @James
Risdon: It appears at this juncture that the NB government is willing to
allow the clinic to bill the province for the services performed at the
listed rate. I believe that is the issue
James Risdon
Reply to @JOhn D Bond: Should say Not willing to allow the clinic to bill
James Risdon
Reply to @JOhn D
Bond: Any and all medical clinics in New Brunswick can make good money
by offering medical services. There are no clinics going bankrupt in New
Brunswick because of a lack of demand for medical care. If Clinic 554
cannot make a go of it as a medical clinic, then I would have to ask
what the heck it is that they are doing. Being unable to make money with
a medical clinic is like a drug dealer not being able to turn a profit.
JOhn D
Bond
Reply to @James
Risdon: There is a salient piece of information missing in that
argument. In NB a clinic can choose to bill the patient. From Service NB
'Medical practitioners in New Brunswick may choose either to bill New
Brunswick Medicare or to bill you directly for an insured service. Those
who choose to bill you in excess of Medicare rates must advise you
before providing the service, and you must sign a waiver form agreeing
that New Brunswick Medicare will not reimburse you any amount"
The Problem is that the government is not allowing the clinic to bill for this specific procedure the amount of the prescribed NB fee, making the patient pay the entire fee. That is the issue
The Problem is that the government is not allowing the clinic to bill for this specific procedure the amount of the prescribed NB fee, making the patient pay the entire fee. That is the issue
Heather Lunergan
Reply to @James Risdon: Wow. Just flipping Wow!
Dan Short
Reply to @James Risdon:
It is because the clinic wants to offer unfounded services, does provide them, usually at a loss as the patient can't pay.
If they clinic provided just the funded services they would be doing just fine. However they continue to insist on providing unfounded services and then demand money from the government,
It is because the clinic wants to offer unfounded services, does provide them, usually at a loss as the patient can't pay.
If they clinic provided just the funded services they would be doing just fine. However they continue to insist on providing unfounded services and then demand money from the government,
Scott Bobott
Reply to @Heather
Lunergan: The clinic is unable to financially reconcile providing
pro-bono abortions to patients who cannot pay for themselves. Dr Edgar
refuses to turn these patients away. There are consequences.
JOhn D
Bond
Reply to @Dan Short:
Dan if they are trying to claim for unfunded services this should not be
an issue. What I have seen and read is that the government is not
willing to allow the clinic to bill for the funded services. If as you
say they are trying to bill for non covered services. Then this is
completely different than the way it has been portrayed.
David Amos
Reply to @Scott Bobott: You write like a lawyer
Scott Bobott
Reply to @David Amos: Thank you. I mean - HOW DARE YOU??!!
James Risdon
Reply to @Heather Lunergan: Glad to know I managed to impress you.Dan Short
Reply to @JOhn D Bond:
Abortion is unapproved in NB outside a hospital. Clinic 554 knows this, yet still wants to collect.
Abortion is unapproved in NB outside a hospital. Clinic 554 knows this, yet still wants to collect.
James Risdon
Reply to @Dan Short: What medical services do they offer that not funded by the government?David Amos
Reply to @James
Risdon: Methinks its too bad so sad that things didn't work out for you
and your cohorts in the KISS Party ran against Higgy et al in 2018 When
the dust settled on that you bailed out on them and began praising the
Irving Clan again N'esy Pas?
Dan Short
Reply to @James Risdon:
Abortions outside a hospital for starters,
Abortions outside a hospital for starters,
James Risdon
Reply to @Dan Short:
Well, that's just unreasonable of Clinic 554. I would love to be able to
sell stuff that people won't buy too and get the government to fund it.
But private industry doesn't work that way.
James Risdon
Reply to @Dan Short:
Abortions should not be performed outside of hospitals. Hospitals are
the best equipped to deal with emergencies arising from complications
from abortion and are therefore a safer choice for women.
Dan Short
Reply to @James Risdon:
Tell thatqq to the Irving's
Tell thatqq to the Irving's
David Amos
Reply to @James Risdon: So says the Irving Clan
Mary Smith
Reply to @Dan Short:
When a woman is pregnant it's going to cost the government one way or
another. She's either going to have the pregnancy fail, or have it
likely in a hospital (potentially C-section, a day or more recovery,
potential NICU, etc). There's a price tag attached the moment a woman is
pregnant.
Abortion in a clinic is no different from one at a hospital. (An abortion at a clinic is more convenient and more discrete as all appointments are for one day at a clinic as opposed to many appointments on different days at a hospital). It's a procedure performed by someone who that's what they mostly do. Complications are rare with abortions, and if so a hospital is not far away.
There may be 3 hospitals that offer them in NB, but there's only 2 locations: Moncton and Bathurst. A woman has to go to multiple appointments for a hospital abortion, making it harder to be discrete and having high travel expenses (you can't drive yourself after the procedure, so you need to have someone drive you too).
It's the law that women have appropriate access to abortions. Either have the abortions in the 554 clinic covered as it should be, or provide it in Fredericton at the hospital. Women that live in Fredericton and West and beyond should not be expected to travel so far to access services they have a legal right to be able to access. By not funding abortions in the clinic, or in that region in hospital, needlessly makes women suffer. It puts women at risk otherwise.
Abortion in a clinic is no different from one at a hospital. (An abortion at a clinic is more convenient and more discrete as all appointments are for one day at a clinic as opposed to many appointments on different days at a hospital). It's a procedure performed by someone who that's what they mostly do. Complications are rare with abortions, and if so a hospital is not far away.
There may be 3 hospitals that offer them in NB, but there's only 2 locations: Moncton and Bathurst. A woman has to go to multiple appointments for a hospital abortion, making it harder to be discrete and having high travel expenses (you can't drive yourself after the procedure, so you need to have someone drive you too).
It's the law that women have appropriate access to abortions. Either have the abortions in the 554 clinic covered as it should be, or provide it in Fredericton at the hospital. Women that live in Fredericton and West and beyond should not be expected to travel so far to access services they have a legal right to be able to access. By not funding abortions in the clinic, or in that region in hospital, needlessly makes women suffer. It puts women at risk otherwise.
Rob Sense
Reply to @James Risdon:
And as a woman you speak from experience???
And as a woman you speak from experience???
David Amos
Reply to @Rob Sense: Too Too Funny
Mary Smith
Reply
to @James Risdon: Then have abortions in hospitals in that region. It's
offered in three hospitals but only two locations: Moncton and
Bathurst.
For a hospital abortion it's not streamlined like it is in a clinic: there's many appointments on different days meaning there's many barriers with being discrete, travel expenses, and having someone drive you since you can't drive yourself after the procedure.
Complications after abortions are very, very rare. The hospital is not far from the clinic, if anything were to happen.
For a hospital abortion it's not streamlined like it is in a clinic: there's many appointments on different days meaning there's many barriers with being discrete, travel expenses, and having someone drive you since you can't drive yourself after the procedure.
Complications after abortions are very, very rare. The hospital is not far from the clinic, if anything were to happen.
Dan Short
Reply to @Mary Smith:
First I have posted several time if the issue is access, increase the hospitals.
Secondly as for your list of "hurdles" at a hospital, most of not all can be addressed by changing procedures and processes.
First I have posted several time if the issue is access, increase the hospitals.
Secondly as for your list of "hurdles" at a hospital, most of not all can be addressed by changing procedures and processes.
Scott Bobott
Reply to @David Amos:
"like a lawyer" I should have responded "I object" ! Zut. That was
some low hanging fruit and I missed it.
James Risdon
Reply to @Dan Short: Tell what to the Irvings and why?
James Risdon
Reply to @Mary Smith:
If complications do arise with an abortion, it is far better for the
woman during that medical emergency to already be at the hospital where
there is every conceivable medical device and medical professional to
help her.
I see no reason why any abortions should be performed in clinics when a higher standard of care for women is available.
Why would you want women to go to a less well-equipped and less well-staffed facility for an abortion knowing that if complications arise the clinic may not be able to fully deal with that medical emergency?
That makes no sense. It makes no sense to provide women with anything less than the best possible medical care.
I see no reason why any abortions should be performed in clinics when a higher standard of care for women is available.
Why would you want women to go to a less well-equipped and less well-staffed facility for an abortion knowing that if complications arise the clinic may not be able to fully deal with that medical emergency?
That makes no sense. It makes no sense to provide women with anything less than the best possible medical care.
Mary Smith
Reply to @Dan Short:
Agree, either update and change procedures and processes of how it's
offered at hospitals to have it all happen on one day, or have it
available at the hospital in the Fredericton region.
It wasn't that long ago that women had to get approval by two different doctors in order to allow them to have the procedure in NB, and only if it was "medically necessary". That's archaic and so behind the rest of the country.
Clinic or hospital, it doesn't really matter where as long as women have access without significant barriers. Hospitals need to streamline and improve to ensure women can get in before the cut off date, because it's time sensitive
It wasn't that long ago that women had to get approval by two different doctors in order to allow them to have the procedure in NB, and only if it was "medically necessary". That's archaic and so behind the rest of the country.
Clinic or hospital, it doesn't really matter where as long as women have access without significant barriers. Hospitals need to streamline and improve to ensure women can get in before the cut off date, because it's time sensitive
James Risdon
Reply
to @Mary Smith: That is the discussion that pro-choicers should be
having with the government: the choice of which hospitals will provide
abortions to ensure that the most women have the greatest access.
As a pro-lifer, I of course think abortion should be illegal because it is the killing of an innocent human being.
But as long as abortion is not illegal and is being provided at taxpayers' expense in New Brunswick, then surely it should only be provided in the places that can provide the best medical care to women. And that's hospitals, not private clinics
As a pro-lifer, I of course think abortion should be illegal because it is the killing of an innocent human being.
But as long as abortion is not illegal and is being provided at taxpayers' expense in New Brunswick, then surely it should only be provided in the places that can provide the best medical care to women. And that's hospitals, not private clinics
Mary Smith
Reply to @James
Risdon: "Why would you want women to go to a less well-equipped and less
well-staffed facility for an abortion knowing that if complications
arise the clinic may not be able to fully deal with that medical
emergency?"
And you know that clinics are less equipped or less well staffed than hospitals? It's the same nurses and doctors who perform the same procedures, the only difference is one is in a clinic and one is in a hospital.
And you know that clinics are less equipped or less well staffed than hospitals? It's the same nurses and doctors who perform the same procedures, the only difference is one is in a clinic and one is in a hospital.
You're pretending to care about women and speak for women, by denying women access. The clinic offers the very best medical care, just as the hospital does.
Dan Short
Reply to @Mary Smith:
Times and views change, what was done years ago is different than today, years from now who knows what views we will have on the issue. It's fluid as we mature and grown ethically as a planet.
Times and views change, what was done years ago is different than today, years from now who knows what views we will have on the issue. It's fluid as we mature and grown ethically as a planet.
Dan Short
Reply to @Mary Smith:
The number of staff involved In the actual surgery is lower at the clinic,
The number of staff involved In the actual surgery is lower at the clinic,
James Risdon
Reply to @Mary Smith:
No, the clinics do not provide the same level of medical care. I know
this because when private clinics have medical emergencies arising from
complications during abortions, they send those women to hospitals.
Hospitals pick up the pieces when things go wrong in private clinics.
And the reason for that is because the hospitals offer a wider range of medical services and have a greater amount of resources and a lot more medical professionals at their disposal to deal with emergencies.
It is completely absurd to pretend that a private clinic is equal to a fully-equipped hospital in terms of its ability to deal with emergencies.
Hospitals pick up the pieces when things go wrong in private clinics.
And the reason for that is because the hospitals offer a wider range of medical services and have a greater amount of resources and a lot more medical professionals at their disposal to deal with emergencies.
It is completely absurd to pretend that a private clinic is equal to a fully-equipped hospital in terms of its ability to deal with emergencies.
Dan Short
Just add more hospitals.
Problem solved.
Like what Dan said, your math is wrong. It isn't just one way, it'd be multiple ways for multiple days. Add in motel or hotel. Add in food. Add in time taken off work because you have to spend days traveling. Add in trying to travel many hours over many days discretely. It's a lot more than just $65.
And now your pro-life is showing. It's not about the legal right for women to access abortions they need without significant barriers, you want to add barriers to prevent women from accessing the procedure.
I don't like having to point to gender, but this is a gendered issue that you as a man will never have to deal with. It's the law. Either have it performed in the hospital in that region, or at the clinic and be covered as it's covered when performed in hospitals. If women can't access abortions, they'll either find a way or we'll see a rise in suicides. It's the same procedure, performed by the same people, in the same setting with the same exact tools and experts. The only difference is it's performed in a clinic (and they offer same day for everything) and one is in a hospital, and one is covered and the other one should be too.
Also, Clinic 554 isn't just for those in Fredericton, it helps all those not close to Moncton or Bathurst.
Ah, so you want women to basically deal with it all at home and have miscarriage at home, where so much can go wrong. So much for wanting women in a medical environment, so they're the most safe they can be?
But really, women are not having their safety at risk. The clinic provides the service and are experts. If problems arise - which they rarely do - they are not far from a hospital. Women are consenting adults and are capable of making informed decisions about their health and their bodies. Hiding behind safety of women as a reason to put up barriers is dishonest -- you don't really want the procedure offered in hospitals, you want it not offered in clinics. Yvon Landry
Problem solved.
David Amos
Reply to @Dan Short: Clearly the wiseguy is back
James Risdon
Reply to @Dan Short: What problem? This is no shortage of capacity for abortions in New Brunswick.
Dan Short
Reply to @James Risdon:
There is a difference between capacity and access. If say most getting an abortion are youth or working poor, or with kids to care for. Travelling hours may not be affordable or time doable,
While I don't think it should be on every corner, an hour travel should be a good determination of where to have it available.
There is a difference between capacity and access. If say most getting an abortion are youth or working poor, or with kids to care for. Travelling hours may not be affordable or time doable,
While I don't think it should be on every corner, an hour travel should be a good determination of where to have it available.
James Risdon
Reply to @Dan Short:
Do you think other provinces offer abortions within an hour's drive of
all communities? I'm pretty sure they don't.
James Risdon
Reply to @Dan Short:
Let me put this in perspective. I used to drive one hour and 45 minutes
every morning and night to commute from Surrey to downtown Vancouver for
my job.
You're telling me that a woman should not be excepted to travel as far for an abortion as I did for my morning commute?
You're telling me that a woman should not be excepted to travel as far for an abortion as I did for my morning commute?
Dan Short
Reply to @James Risdon:
That was your choice to travel that far. You could have either moved or changed jobs.
Plus if you drove 3 hours a day to go to work, you certainly weren't working minimum wage.
That was your choice to travel that far. You could have either moved or changed jobs.
Plus if you drove 3 hours a day to go to work, you certainly weren't working minimum wage.
James Risdon
Reply to @Dan Short:
It is also the choice of a woman to get an abortion or not. That's why
those who want abortion to be provided legally have called themselves
pro-choice advocates.
With regards to access, the bus fare for a trip from Edmundston to Moncton is $65.
Anyone can afford that.
And if, for some bizarre reason, a woman could not afford that, I am sure social service agencies would help her with the ride.
Abortion access in New Brunswick is not a real issue. It is an ideologically-driven agenda item.
With regards to access, the bus fare for a trip from Edmundston to Moncton is $65.
Anyone can afford that.
And if, for some bizarre reason, a woman could not afford that, I am sure social service agencies would help her with the ride.
Abortion access in New Brunswick is not a real issue. It is an ideologically-driven agenda item.
Dan Short
Reply to @James Risdon:
Have you caught the bus from Edmund town to Moncton. For starters you gave one way,
Secondly, the bus does not arrive during the day in time for surgery that day,
Thirdly, this means at Kesey one night in a hotel. Most likely two. Plus meals.
And finally, like any surgery you need someone to sign you out of the hospital and watch you for a few hours. So thst Gus dare is one for two people.
Have you caught the bus from Edmund town to Moncton. For starters you gave one way,
Secondly, the bus does not arrive during the day in time for surgery that day,
Thirdly, this means at Kesey one night in a hotel. Most likely two. Plus meals.
And finally, like any surgery you need someone to sign you out of the hospital and watch you for a few hours. So thst Gus dare is one for two people.
James Risdon
Reply to @Dan Short:
All of these things would still apply if the abortion was offered in
Fredericton at Clinic 554. So, what's the difference?
Or are you proposing that abortions should be performed in clinics in every single community in New Brunswick?
You do realize, I hope, that the abortion pill Mifegymiso is available in virtually every pharmacy in Canada. So there are alternatives to surgical abortions.
Mind you, there is always the alternative of, oh, I don't know, actually letting the child live and love him or her and be a good mother.
Or are you proposing that abortions should be performed in clinics in every single community in New Brunswick?
You do realize, I hope, that the abortion pill Mifegymiso is available in virtually every pharmacy in Canada. So there are alternatives to surgical abortions.
Mind you, there is always the alternative of, oh, I don't know, actually letting the child live and love him or her and be a good mother.
Dan Short
Reply to @James Risdon:
Hey I haven't argued to keep clinic 554 open, it doesn't really solve the issue and only helps those in Fredericton,
Hey I haven't argued to keep clinic 554 open, it doesn't really solve the issue and only helps those in Fredericton,
James Risdon
Reply to @Dan Short:
Well, my entire point is that Clinic 554 should not be funded to perform
abortions. Those abortions, if they are to be performed at all, should
be performed in hospitals.
Mary Smith
Reply to @James
Risdon: "With regards to access, the bus fare for a trip from Edmundston
to Moncton is $65. Anyone can afford that." Like what Dan said, your math is wrong. It isn't just one way, it'd be multiple ways for multiple days. Add in motel or hotel. Add in food. Add in time taken off work because you have to spend days traveling. Add in trying to travel many hours over many days discretely. It's a lot more than just $65.
And now your pro-life is showing. It's not about the legal right for women to access abortions they need without significant barriers, you want to add barriers to prevent women from accessing the procedure.
I don't like having to point to gender, but this is a gendered issue that you as a man will never have to deal with. It's the law. Either have it performed in the hospital in that region, or at the clinic and be covered as it's covered when performed in hospitals. If women can't access abortions, they'll either find a way or we'll see a rise in suicides. It's the same procedure, performed by the same people, in the same setting with the same exact tools and experts. The only difference is it's performed in a clinic (and they offer same day for everything) and one is in a hospital, and one is covered and the other one should be too.
Also, Clinic 554 isn't just for those in Fredericton, it helps all those not close to Moncton or Bathurst.
Mary Smith
Reply to @James
Risdon: "You do realize, I hope, that the abortion pill Mifegymiso is
available in virtually every pharmacy in Canada. So there are
alternatives to surgical abortions." Ah, so you want women to basically deal with it all at home and have miscarriage at home, where so much can go wrong. So much for wanting women in a medical environment, so they're the most safe they can be?
James Risdon
Reply to @Mary Smith: I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with that last post.
Yes, I am pro-life. I don't hide that. I certainly don't apologize for it.
Unless you want to get in to a debate about the morality and science and law surrounding abortion - and I suggest you might want to have that debate with someone less prepared than me and under different circumstances - then I think it would be most productive for us to simply discuss the actual substance of the issue being reported.
We have a lot of common ground. I want women to be safe and have access to the best possible medical care. So do you. I want women to have their medical care covered by taxpayers. So do you.
Can we agree that under the current legal system, the real issue here is not whether to fund Clinic 554 or not but whether or not a private clinic like Clinic 554 is as good or better a choice for this service compared to a hospital, such as the Chalmers in Fredericton?
I will almost certainly never get pregnant. That much, I hope is true - although one can never tell with advances in modern medicine and changing social mores. Still, I have received treatment in private clinics and hospitals as well. As a reasonably intelligent adult, I think I can evaluate the extent of medical services in one type of medical establishment relative to another.
And so, like the woman who reports on men's sports even though she is not a man and will never suffer all the same kinds of sports injuries as men, I too feel capable of being able to comment in a reasonable and rational way on abortion even though I will never have one.
I hope we can put sexism aside and have a reasonable conversation.
Yes, I am pro-life. I don't hide that. I certainly don't apologize for it.
Unless you want to get in to a debate about the morality and science and law surrounding abortion - and I suggest you might want to have that debate with someone less prepared than me and under different circumstances - then I think it would be most productive for us to simply discuss the actual substance of the issue being reported.
We have a lot of common ground. I want women to be safe and have access to the best possible medical care. So do you. I want women to have their medical care covered by taxpayers. So do you.
Can we agree that under the current legal system, the real issue here is not whether to fund Clinic 554 or not but whether or not a private clinic like Clinic 554 is as good or better a choice for this service compared to a hospital, such as the Chalmers in Fredericton?
I will almost certainly never get pregnant. That much, I hope is true - although one can never tell with advances in modern medicine and changing social mores. Still, I have received treatment in private clinics and hospitals as well. As a reasonably intelligent adult, I think I can evaluate the extent of medical services in one type of medical establishment relative to another.
And so, like the woman who reports on men's sports even though she is not a man and will never suffer all the same kinds of sports injuries as men, I too feel capable of being able to comment in a reasonable and rational way on abortion even though I will never have one.
I hope we can put sexism aside and have a reasonable conversation.
James Risdon
Reply to @Mary Smith: I am pro-life. I don't want women to abort their children at all.
I am merely pointing out that there are other alternatives to surgical abortions.
I agree that Mifegymiso is a horrible thing and that it can create a great deal of problems. It is, however, the ultimate in convenience when it comes to abortion.
When pro-choice advocates demand that abortion be available everywhere with no obstacles, they are by necessity compromising the safety of the woman in exchange for that convenience. The logical extension of that is Mifegymiso.
My preference and I think the only reasonable public policy position if abortion is to be legal in Canada, is to have abortions done in fully-equipped hospitals and to hold the makers of Mifegymiso financially liable for every single complication that arises from their product.
As has been made abundantly apparent, however, I do not get to make that decision. At least, not yet. «
I am merely pointing out that there are other alternatives to surgical abortions.
I agree that Mifegymiso is a horrible thing and that it can create a great deal of problems. It is, however, the ultimate in convenience when it comes to abortion.
When pro-choice advocates demand that abortion be available everywhere with no obstacles, they are by necessity compromising the safety of the woman in exchange for that convenience. The logical extension of that is Mifegymiso.
My preference and I think the only reasonable public policy position if abortion is to be legal in Canada, is to have abortions done in fully-equipped hospitals and to hold the makers of Mifegymiso financially liable for every single complication that arises from their product.
As has been made abundantly apparent, however, I do not get to make that decision. At least, not yet. «
Mary Smith
Reply to @James Risdon: "When pro-choice advocates demand that abortion be available everywhere with no obstacles"
They don't want it available everywhere, just appropriate and reasonable access. Having it covered in just two locations - Moncton and Bathurst - isn't enough and that is a significant barrier to many.
A surgical abortion is easier on the body, with shorter recovery time, and the clinics provide all the appointments streamlined for one day. Meanwhile the hospital uses a chemical abortion where you start at home (I'm not sure if it's Mifegymiso or not, but it's similar) and you try traveling 3-4 hours while having essentially a miscarriage. It's needlessly making women suffer.
The clinic fills the gap in services currently in NB. It should either be covered, or replaced by being offered in that region (and the hospitals should aim to improve to the level of care that the clinics provide and streamline appointments as they do).
They don't want it available everywhere, just appropriate and reasonable access. Having it covered in just two locations - Moncton and Bathurst - isn't enough and that is a significant barrier to many.
A surgical abortion is easier on the body, with shorter recovery time, and the clinics provide all the appointments streamlined for one day. Meanwhile the hospital uses a chemical abortion where you start at home (I'm not sure if it's Mifegymiso or not, but it's similar) and you try traveling 3-4 hours while having essentially a miscarriage. It's needlessly making women suffer.
The clinic fills the gap in services currently in NB. It should either be covered, or replaced by being offered in that region (and the hospitals should aim to improve to the level of care that the clinics provide and streamline appointments as they do).
Mary Smith
Reply to @James Risdon: "they are by necessity compromising the safety of the woman in exchange for that convenience. " But really, women are not having their safety at risk. The clinic provides the service and are experts. If problems arise - which they rarely do - they are not far from a hospital. Women are consenting adults and are capable of making informed decisions about their health and their bodies. Hiding behind safety of women as a reason to put up barriers is dishonest -- you don't really want the procedure offered in hospitals, you want it not offered in clinics.
James Risdon
Reply to @Mary Smith: So, your position is that the procedures used by the clinics are superior to those used by the hospital.
If that is the case - and I don't agree that it is - then the appropriate solution would be to get the hospitals to adopt the procedures used by the clinics when the woman wants that procedure.
With regards to accessibility, it may be that two locations is inadequate for the demand. If that is the case - and I don't agree that it is because the arguments against the current locations are weak at best - then the solution would be to have more hospitals in more locations perform the procedure. This would allow women to have easier access while being in hospitals which are the best-equipped and staffed medical facilities to handle emergencies in the eventuality of complications during abortions.
The solution is clearly not to fund a privately-operated, for-profit clinic that is less equipped and less able to handle emergencies than a hospital.
Women in New Brunswick deserve the highest standard of medical care, not second-best.
If that is the case - and I don't agree that it is - then the appropriate solution would be to get the hospitals to adopt the procedures used by the clinics when the woman wants that procedure.
With regards to accessibility, it may be that two locations is inadequate for the demand. If that is the case - and I don't agree that it is because the arguments against the current locations are weak at best - then the solution would be to have more hospitals in more locations perform the procedure. This would allow women to have easier access while being in hospitals which are the best-equipped and staffed medical facilities to handle emergencies in the eventuality of complications during abortions.
The solution is clearly not to fund a privately-operated, for-profit clinic that is less equipped and less able to handle emergencies than a hospital.
Women in New Brunswick deserve the highest standard of medical care, not second-best.
James Risdon
Reply to @Mary Smith:
Well, that's just ungracious of you to call me dishonest. I have been
completely honest about the fact that I am pro-life. I have also been
completely honest about my reasons for choosing hospitals over private
clinics in the current scenario where abortion is not illegal and
provided at taxpayer expense.
The fact that hospitals are better equipped to help women should there be an emergency due to complications during an abortion is indisputable. The hospitals are where the abortion clinics send women when there is an emergency.
It only stands to reason that if the woman may need the hospital's services, it only makes sense for her to have the procedure done in a hospital if it is going to be performed at all.
Please stick with the issue and discuss this in a fair and rationale manner without resorting to name-calling and insults.
The fact that hospitals are better equipped to help women should there be an emergency due to complications during an abortion is indisputable. The hospitals are where the abortion clinics send women when there is an emergency.
It only stands to reason that if the woman may need the hospital's services, it only makes sense for her to have the procedure done in a hospital if it is going to be performed at all.
Please stick with the issue and discuss this in a fair and rationale manner without resorting to name-calling and insults.
Sorry
but I fail to see what the fuss is about. Anybody care to explain ?
That is beside anybody that have financial gain with that clinic.
James
Risdon
Reply to @Yvon
Landry: The financial interest is precisely what the fuss is all about.
The clinic is using an ideologically-driven agenda to get government
funds for itself when there is absolutely no need for abortions in a
private clinic.
Mary Smith
Reply to @Yvon Landry:
For an abortion at a clinic, you just have to go once for all the tests
on the day. Easy and simple. For an abortion at a hospital, it's
something like 3 of 4 separate appointments at separate times.
If a woman is trying to access an abortion in say Fredericton and if the clinic wasn't there that means she would have to go to Moncton or Bathurst 3 to 4 different times - all potentially discretely and with great travel expense - and that is a lot of barriers for women to access the abortion they need.
For hospitals too they try to push you to have an abortion later, closer to the cut off point, where as a clinic would get you in when you want it done as soon as it's possible.
With abortions you need to have it performed before the x time or else it's too far along, and if you aren't able to get all those appointments done in time you would have to travel a far distance to find someone to perform the procedure, even if it's only a day or so over the cut off time for an early term abortion.
There are 3 hospitals in NB but only in two locations: Moncton and Bathurst. Travel time potentially being very significant and the inconvenience of having to travel for multiple appointments as opposed to just having everything done on one day, are barriers.
So if a woman cannot access abortions timely and discretely. Say if a woman is in an abusive relationship, trying to get in to have the procedure done discretely, it's difficult to do so when they have to travel many hours away for 3-4 different appointments and where they cannot drive themselves to or from the procedure appointment afterwards. All of this and more are all very significant barriers for women.
"Every mother a willing mother. Every child a wanted child."
If a woman is trying to access an abortion in say Fredericton and if the clinic wasn't there that means she would have to go to Moncton or Bathurst 3 to 4 different times - all potentially discretely and with great travel expense - and that is a lot of barriers for women to access the abortion they need.
For hospitals too they try to push you to have an abortion later, closer to the cut off point, where as a clinic would get you in when you want it done as soon as it's possible.
With abortions you need to have it performed before the x time or else it's too far along, and if you aren't able to get all those appointments done in time you would have to travel a far distance to find someone to perform the procedure, even if it's only a day or so over the cut off time for an early term abortion.
There are 3 hospitals in NB but only in two locations: Moncton and Bathurst. Travel time potentially being very significant and the inconvenience of having to travel for multiple appointments as opposed to just having everything done on one day, are barriers.
So if a woman cannot access abortions timely and discretely. Say if a woman is in an abusive relationship, trying to get in to have the procedure done discretely, it's difficult to do so when they have to travel many hours away for 3-4 different appointments and where they cannot drive themselves to or from the procedure appointment afterwards. All of this and more are all very significant barriers for women.
"Every mother a willing mother. Every child a wanted child."
Dan Short
Reply to @Mary Smith:
Yet that's no different than anyone needing any other type of surgery, it requires multiple visits.
Yet that's no different than anyone needing any other type of surgery, it requires multiple visits.
James
Risdon
Reply to @Mary Smith: That's not what this is about.
If the issue were the travel time and distance, then abortion advocates would be asking for a Fredericton hospital to perform abortions. That would provide women with the greatest access to high-quality medical care in the event of emergencies arising from complications during abortions.
That's not what they are asking for. They are asking government to give taxpayer dollars to a private clinic.
This is an ideological thing. The clinic has become a symbol for abortion rights and the owner or owners are using that to try to milk the government for taxpayer dollars.
But the symbol of the private abortion clinic fighting for abortion rights in New Brunswick is an anachronism, a throwback to a different time.
Abortion is now readily available and fully funded by the taxpayer in hospitals offering the highest possible standard of medical care for women in New Brunswick.
There is no longer any need for women to go to a private clinic with less medical staff and less medical equipment and take the chance of suffering a complication that the clinic will be unable to address.
Women in New Brunswick know this. They're not stupid. They're not going to go get abortions in a less well-equipped clinic and pay for it when they can get their abortions for free in hospitals.
Clinic 554 simply has to keep up with the times and offer other services. They're a medical clinic. Maybe they should just concentrate on offering good medical care to patients. It seems to work as a business model for just about every other medical clinic in the province.
If the issue were the travel time and distance, then abortion advocates would be asking for a Fredericton hospital to perform abortions. That would provide women with the greatest access to high-quality medical care in the event of emergencies arising from complications during abortions.
That's not what they are asking for. They are asking government to give taxpayer dollars to a private clinic.
This is an ideological thing. The clinic has become a symbol for abortion rights and the owner or owners are using that to try to milk the government for taxpayer dollars.
But the symbol of the private abortion clinic fighting for abortion rights in New Brunswick is an anachronism, a throwback to a different time.
Abortion is now readily available and fully funded by the taxpayer in hospitals offering the highest possible standard of medical care for women in New Brunswick.
There is no longer any need for women to go to a private clinic with less medical staff and less medical equipment and take the chance of suffering a complication that the clinic will be unable to address.
Women in New Brunswick know this. They're not stupid. They're not going to go get abortions in a less well-equipped clinic and pay for it when they can get their abortions for free in hospitals.
Clinic 554 simply has to keep up with the times and offer other services. They're a medical clinic. Maybe they should just concentrate on offering good medical care to patients. It seems to work as a business model for just about every other medical clinic in the province.
Mary Smith
Reply to @Dan Short:
It's time sensitive. You want it to happen the earliest you can perform
it. If it's even a day past the cut off point, I don't even know what a
woman would have to do. I think they'd have to try to travel to
Quebec.
(I just looked through the comments and I counted just four women comment, and the rest are from men. It's easy to have an opinion on something that you'll never, ever have to deal with.)
Access to abortions, without significant barriers, is a woman's legal right. That's it. Improve access or pay for the service provided in the clinic that fills the need that is clearly there.
(I just looked through the comments and I counted just four women comment, and the rest are from men. It's easy to have an opinion on something that you'll never, ever have to deal with.)
Access to abortions, without significant barriers, is a woman's legal right. That's it. Improve access or pay for the service provided in the clinic that fills the need that is clearly there.
Mary Smith
Reply to @James
Risdon: "There is no longer any need for women to go to a private clinic
with less medical staff and less medical equipment and take the chance
of suffering a complication that the clinic will be unable to address."
This isn't true.
It's about access. It wasn't long ago that women had to get the approval of two doctors to allow them to have the procedure in NB, and that was only if it was deemed "medically necessary" (and suicide from being forced to have a child they did not want counts).
We're behind the times in NB. Clinic or hospital, it doesn't matter. The doctors and facility at the clinic is absolutely safe. They know what they're doing as that's what they do. They're experts.
It's about paying for a service that the province already covers in three hospitals in two locations in NB.
This isn't true.
It's about access. It wasn't long ago that women had to get the approval of two doctors to allow them to have the procedure in NB, and that was only if it was deemed "medically necessary" (and suicide from being forced to have a child they did not want counts).
We're behind the times in NB. Clinic or hospital, it doesn't matter. The doctors and facility at the clinic is absolutely safe. They know what they're doing as that's what they do. They're experts.
It's about paying for a service that the province already covers in three hospitals in two locations in NB.
Dan Short
Reply to @Mary Smith:
Rishon is party correct. It's not really just about abortions at clinic 554. It's about a far left segment of society wanting their own private clinic to address their personal health needs.
Rather than deal with the public health system.
It used to be solely about abortions when it was just an abortion clinic. Now it's about fighting for a private clinic to deal with not just abortion but gender and other left issues.
Rishon is party correct. It's not really just about abortions at clinic 554. It's about a far left segment of society wanting their own private clinic to address their personal health needs.
Rather than deal with the public health system.
It used to be solely about abortions when it was just an abortion clinic. Now it's about fighting for a private clinic to deal with not just abortion but gender and other left issues.
James Risdon
Reply to @Mary Smith: I
am not disparaging the education or training of the staff at the
private clinics. I am saying there are fewer of them in the clinic and
they do not have the range of specialists and experts in various fields
or the wide range of medical equipment in a fully-equipped hospital.
There is no doubt whatsoever that a fully-equipped hospital is a safer place for a woman suffering from a medical emergency. That is where she should be.
If Canada is going to offer abortion services, it must offer them in the best way possible. And that's in hospitals.
There is no doubt whatsoever that a fully-equipped hospital is a safer place for a woman suffering from a medical emergency. That is where she should be.
If Canada is going to offer abortion services, it must offer them in the best way possible. And that's in hospitals.
James Risdon
Reply to @Dan Short:
Well, the gender and LGBTQ+ issues, whatever they may be that would be
distinct from health issues for straight people, are actually a good
thing for Clinic 554 to focus on. If this is an under-served group of
people - and I would hope they would not be under-served in 2020 - then I
think it's great that Clinic 554 helps them with whatever health needs
they have.
That specialization, added to the regular medical care clinics provide to everyone, should be more than enough to keep Clinic 554 afloat financially.
That specialization, added to the regular medical care clinics provide to everyone, should be more than enough to keep Clinic 554 afloat financially.
Dan Short
Reply to @James Risdon:
Yes it would be a good thing for clinic 554. Unfortunately it doesn't make enough money for them. Mostly because again they refuse to charge many patients they feel can't pay.
Instead of all this effort spent to try and keep it open, they all should have spent the time establishing and fundraising for a grant system to help those who can't afford the services.
Thst would be a much better time spent and actually help people.
Yes it would be a good thing for clinic 554. Unfortunately it doesn't make enough money for them. Mostly because again they refuse to charge many patients they feel can't pay.
Instead of all this effort spent to try and keep it open, they all should have spent the time establishing and fundraising for a grant system to help those who can't afford the services.
Thst would be a much better time spent and actually help people.
Dan Short
Reply to @Dan Short:
All of which I have told them many times. But they aren't interested, they want to bang their drums of rebellion instead.
All of which I have told them many times. But they aren't interested, they want to bang their drums of rebellion instead.
Mary Smith
Reply to @Dan Short: "establishing and fundraising for a grant system to help those who can't afford the services"
There are funds there, but they perform the procedure at a loss to help women who come up short. They shouldn't have to do fundraising when women have the legal right to obtain an abortion without significant barriers. It's the law.
There are funds there, but they perform the procedure at a loss to help women who come up short. They shouldn't have to do fundraising when women have the legal right to obtain an abortion without significant barriers. It's the law.
David Amos
Reply to @Yvon Landry: In a nutshell your question hits the nail on the head
Methinks everything political is always about the money N'esy Pas?
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