High-ranking Mountie insists Lucki pressed him about releasing gun details after N.S. shooting
Chief Supt. Darren Campbell said he told Lucki that releasing the information could harm the investigation
High-ranking Mountie insists commissioner interfered in N.S. mass shooting probe
RCMP Chief Supt. Darren Campbell told a House of Commons committee Tuesday that he recalls Lucki saying during an April 28, 2020 call that she was "sad and disappointed" that Campbell had not released details about the gunman's weapons at a news conference.
Campbell told MPs that the commissioner also said she had "promised" the offices of Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and then-Public Safety minister Bill Blair that those details would be released.
Campbell said he tried to tell Lucki that releasing that information could hurt the ongoing investigation, which involved agencies in the United States.
"The commissioner told my colleagues and I that we didn't understand, that this was tied to pending legislation that would make officers and the public safer," Campbell said.
"The commissioner made me feel as if I was stupid."
When asked how much of the call with Lucki had been about releasing the gun information, Campbell said the entire 20 minutes he heard of the meeting before walking out had been about the firearms.
Blair and Lucki have denied repeatedly that Blair interfered in the investigation. Blair also told the committee he never asked Lucki to promise him the gun information would be released.
Campbell said that while he knew Lucki likely was under pressure regarding how to share information from all kinds of sources, including the public, media, government and the RCMP, he has no first-hand knowledge of who was asking Lucki about the guns.
'I could not and would not break that oath'
Campbell said that while it was never his intention to enter into a "political disagreement or discussion" about what happened in the April 28 meeting with Lucki, there was a principle at stake.
"The principle was the oath that I swore to uphold as a young recruit over three decades ago," he said. "I could not and would not break that oath."
The details about the guns became public through a briefing note given to the prime minister, which surfaced through an access to information request. Despite a request from the Nova Scotia Mounties that the firearm information be shared only internally to the RCMP, emails show Lucki sent those details to the offices of the Public Safety minister and the national security adviser to the prime minister.
When asked how the public could be sure the investigation into the massacre was not affected by this information being shared, Campbell said that's a difficult question to answer because their work "very well" may have been compromised.
Campbell said it's obvious that the Public Safety minister's office was interested in the firearms and conversations between Blair and Lucki might have taken place, but "the direction was fairly clear that it could not be shared."
MPs on a Commons standing committee have heard that RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki shared information about the firearms with the offices of the Public Safety minister and the national security adviser to the prime minister. (Adrian Wyld/The Canadian Press)
When asked whether the commissioner offered a rebuttal to Campbell's argument that releasing the firearms information might hurt the investigation, Campbell said it seemed to him that Lucki felt the release of the information was "more important."
The 13-hour rampage by a gunman took 22 lives and is now the subject of a public inquiry.
Lia Scanlan, former communications director for the Nova Scotia RCMP, appeared alongside Campbell before the committee. She said she does not remember the exact words Lucki used in the April 28 call but believes Campbell's account is accurate.
"I would never dispute Darren Campbell's notes and at the end of the day, whether we're saying promise, pressure, influence — they all lead to the same end result," Scanlan said.
Scanlan wrote a letter to the commissioner more than a year after the shootings, echoing Campbell's concerns and telling Lucki the meeting was "appalling, inappropriate, unprofessional and extremely belittling."
On Tuesday, Scanlan recalled her feeling of "disgust" over the call with Lucki and told MPs she "understood exactly what was being said."
When asked for her thoughts on whether new legislation should be brought in to strengthen the RCMP's independence and prevent political interference, Scanlan agreed that should take place.
RCMP Chief Supt. Darren Campbell speaks with Director Strategic Communications Unit Lia Scanlan as they wait to appear before the Commons committee on August 16, 2022 in Ottawa. The committee is looking into allegations of political interference in the 2020 Nova Scotia mass murder investigation. (The Canadian Press/Adrian Wyld)
While keeping political partners like federal ministers and the prime minister informed of ongoing investigations is important, she said, it's "very different" from interfering in or influencing a case.
"Words need to be carefully examined, and if it's vague we should be more specific so that we're never in this situation again," Scanlan said.
A number of other people appeared ahead of Scanlan and Campbell at the committee on Tuesday, including deputy minister of justice François Daigle and Owen Rees, the acting assistant deputy attorney general.
Daigle was asked why four key pages of Campbell's notes about the April 28 call initially were held back from the commission to be reviewed for legal privilege, among 35 pages from other senior Mounties.
Daigle said that while there's nothing necessarily privileged about a call with the RCMP commissioner, the team of justice lawyers would have flagged any pages for review if there was a reference "to cabinet meeting, reference to a Treasury Board submission, or a reference to legal advice," among other things, he said.
Twenty-two people died on April 18 and 19, 2020. Top row from left: Gina Goulet, Dawn Gulenchyn, Jolene Oliver, Frank Gulenchyn, Sean McLeod, Alanna Jenkins. Second row: John Zahl, Lisa McCully, Joey Webber, Heidi Stevenson, Heather O'Brien and Jamie Blair. Third row from top: Kristen Beaton, Lillian Campbell, Joanne Thomas, Peter Bond, Tom Bagley and Greg Blair. Bottom row: Emily Tuck, Joy Bond, Corrie Ellison and Aaron Tuck. (CBC)
Daigle said the justice minister's office had "no involvement whatsoever" in deciding which documents to hold back for review, or in gathering thousands of documents for disclosure to the commission.
Two other RCMP staff members were also summoned to the committee: Alison Whelan, the chief strategic policy and external relations officer, and Jolene Bradley, director general of the National Communications Services.
Rick Perkins, a Conservative MP from Nova Scotia, suggested the committee hold a future meeting to hear from others on the topic of political interference, including more RCMP communications staff in Nova Scotia and Ottawa and Blair's own chief of staff.
Fellow Conservative MP Stephen Ellis represents the N.S. riding where much of the mass shooting took place. He said he supported Perkins' suggestion, adding it's important to have the full picture.
"Somebody's not telling the truth. And that is very, very disappointing to me and I think it's very disappointing to Canadians," Ellis said.
Perkins' request did not pass a committee vote. Instead, the committee passed a Liberal MP's motion to adjourn the debate for now and hold an in-camera meeting about the matter in September.
With files from The Canadian Press
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Subject: Automatic reply: Methinks Seamus Gorman enjoyed showig the
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Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2022 02:03:58 -0300
Subject: Methinks Seamus Gorman enjoyed showig the world his nasty
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Former Supreme Court judge scolds federal lawyer over advice in N.S. shooting inquiry
Justice department lawyer says issue is 'misunderstanding' of advice
Thomas Cromwell, the director of legal counsel for the public inquiry into the April 2020 massacre, wrote to Department of Justice lawyer Lori Ward two weeks ago about Chief Supt. Chris Leather's testimony last month.
"Some aspects of his testimony have given rise to some serious concerns that I want to raise with you," wrote Cromwell, who sat on the Supreme Court of Canada from 2008 to 2016.
The Aug. 5 letter was disclosed by the Mass Casualty Commission this week. It is leading the inquiry into the mass shooting when 22 people, including a pregnant woman, were killed by a gunman as he drove a mock police car across the province.
Leather, who was the head of criminal operations in Nova Scotia at the time of the shootings, has testified he received a call from RCMP Commissioner Brenda Lucki on the evening of April 22, 2020, shortly after the killings. He said Lucki asked him to send her details about the guns used by the shooter, and he did send her a list for internal purposes only.
But Leather's call and email correspondence with Lucki didn't come up in a July 6 interview with inquiry lawyers. Leather testified on July 28 that lawyers with the federal Department of Justice, including Ward, told him to not "proactively disclose" his conversation and emails with Lucki.
"I knew from my notes and emails I had prepared and submitted that it was obviously relevant to what would become the infamous phone call of April 28 [2020] and was troubled by that and wanted their advice and was advised to take a reactive posture," Leather said.
When he testified last month, Leather told the commission he had also sought "independent legal counsel" after the discussion with the justice department lawyers.
Chief Supt. Chris Leather testifies at the Mass Casualty Commission on July 28, 2022. (CBC)
Questions around whether Lucki was under political pressure to release the specifics of the gunman's firearms have swirled for weeks, ever since Chief Supt. Darren Campbell's notes from the April 28, 2020, call were released as part of the inquiry.
Campbell wrote the commissioner was "sad and disappointed" and "had promised the minister of Public Safety and the Prime Minister's Office that the RCMP, [we] would release this information."
On May 4, 2020, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau announced a ban on some 1,500 makes and models of firearms, including two of the guns used in the Nova Scotia mass shooting. At that time, police had not released the information about the guns used in the attacks.
The allegations have resulted in parliamentary hearings to address allegations of potential political interference, including a hearing in Ottawa on Tuesday.
If Leather's testimony is accurate, Cromwell said it's concerning that federal lawyers would have given this advice when their clients have the "obligation" to help the commission achieve their mandate in the public interest.
Former Supreme Court Justice Thomas Cromwell is now the director of legal counsel for the Mass Casualty Commission leading the public inquiry into the 2020 mass shooting in Nova Scotia. (Philippe Landreville/Supreme Court of Canada Collection)
"While I understand that this sort of advice is standard for witnesses in civil litigation … or at trial, it is in my view not appropriate to give this advice to a senior officer of the RCMP participating in this commission of inquiry," Cromwell said.
He also asked for Ward's assurance that this sort of advice "has not and will not be given to other witnesses" appearing for interviews or testimony before the commission.
"Rather, I would hope and expect that witnesses would be encouraged to share the relevant information that they have," Cromwell wrote.
In the Ottawa hearing Tuesday, MPs asked Campbell about his conversations with justice lawyers. He said he did not get the same advice as Leather about how to testify.
Cromwell also asked Ward whether other "clearly relevant material" has been held back by justice lawyers because it was not specifically requested, and noted that when it comes to documents the commission's general subpoena remains in effect.
In an email to Cromwell a few days later on Aug. 9, 2022, Ward said Leather's testimony about the advice he'd been given by justice lawyers "can only be the result of a misunderstanding."
"Counsel did not provide such advice," Ward said.
Ward said Leather's emails showing that he sent the firearms details to the assistant RCMP commissioner, who then sent them to Lucki, were disclosed to the commission on May 19, 2021. She also said notes of the April 28, 2020, meeting had been disclosed by that point and the meeting's context was already out in public — so there would have been no "logical reason" to advise Leather not to speak freely on the issue.
The only time they advised Leather to refrain from offering information was when he said the April 28 meeting with Lucki was also brought up in an internal workplace assessment in Nova Scotia, Ward wrote.
François Daigle, deputy minister of Justice and deputy Attorney General of Canada, echoed Ward's position before the House of Commons committee Tuesday.
Daigle said since the justice lawyers had not heard anything about the internal review until Leather brought it up, their advice was "don't raise it if they don't raise it."
François Daigle, deputy minister of Justice and deputy Attorney General of Canada, appears before the Standing Committee on Public Safety and National Security at the House of Commons in Ottawa on Tuesday. (CBC)
Justice lawyers also didn't learn of Leather's call with Lucki on April 22 until he testified to that publicly, Daigle said, so for Leather to suggest the justice department told him not to bring up a meeting they didn't know about "doesn't make sense."
"My conclusion is that he misunderstood the advice. Our advice was only specifically with respect to the … report because we didn't know anything about it," Daigle said.
Ward wrote that it's "significant" to note that when it came to senior officer's interviews, the commission counsel had reminded them to tell the RCMP officers they should focus on "answering the questions posed" because time was short.
For this reason, Ward said justice lawyers would have shared that advice with Leather "with the caveat that he should feel free to share whatever additional information he believed to be relevant."
But Leather's recollection of the advice also alarmed Bruce Pitt-Payne of British Columbia, a retired RCMP officer.
Bruce Pitt-Payne, a former RCMP officer, says he has filed a complaint about justice department lawyers' conduct in the N.S. mass shooting inquiry. (CBC)
He said this is a prime example of conflict of interest "rearing its ugly head," and shows that justice department lawyers should not be representing parties with varying interests like Leather, Lucki, federal ministers and the prime minister.
"All could be in conflict here because of this setup," Pitt-Payne said.
Instead, Pitt-Payne said separate justice lawyers with separate privilege should be assigned to each of those parties. He said decisions are currently being made "that aren't necessarily in the interest of the investigation."
Pitt-Payne has filed an official complaint about Ward's conduct with the Nova Scotia Barristers' Society, citing her advice to Leather and alleged conflict of interest.
Given the scale of the inquiry to investigate one of the worst massacres in Canadian history, Pitt-Payne said it would be a shame if the commission wasn't able to meet their objectives through "unethical legal games."
"My fear is that something might be covered up in order to protect one of the [justice department's] entities, which will probably be higher up the food chain than the Chris Leathers and the Darren Campbells," Pitt-Payne said.
"That, I think, should be everybody's concern when you have such an important commission going on."
35 pages of notes held back by justice lawyers
The commission has also released emails between Cromwell and Ward on why the four crucial pages of Campbell's notes on the April 28, 2020, meeting with Lucki were initially missing when the Department of Justice originally sent them to the commission, without explanation.
On June 22, Cromwell asked why the justice department did not tell the commission about those key pages, and also asked for whether any other materials were currently being held back and being checked for "privilege."
Ward agreed in a June 24 email that they had not explained they would be holding back pages of Campbell's notes and they "should have done so." She said at that point, of the 35 pages of senior officers' notes initially held back to check for privilege, only three pages remained under review from Chief Supt. Janis Gray who oversaw the Halifax RCMP district and is now retired.
It appears that as of Tuesday, all of Gray's notes have been posted online by the commission.
With files from The Canadian Press
Estate of N.S. mass shooter in limbo as lawsuits continue
Portapique property bought by province to ensure no development
More than two years after he went on a deadly rampage killing 22 people, the estate of Gabriel Wortman remains tied up in litigation and under the control of the public trustee.
An inventory filed in December 2020 valued the estate at more than $2.1 million. That included $120,000 that the province paid to purchase 200 Portapique Beach Rd., the former location of Wortman's cottage and other buildings where the rampage began.
A spokesperson for the province said the purchase was made to ensure there would be no future development on the property.
Since that inventory, the gunman's Dartmouth property, which was both his home and the location of his denturist practice, has been sold to a Dartmouth-based company, PA Developments.
The public trustee completed the sale in March of last year. Property records list the sale price at just over $1.5 million.
A Dartmouth, N.S.-based company named PA Developments bought the former location of Gabriel Wortman's denturist business for just over $1.5 million last year. (Eric Woolliscroft/CBC)
In addition to property, the inventory of the estate lists more than $880,000 in other financial holdings, including bank accounts and credit cards.
The vast majority of that money, $705,000, is cash RCMP recovered when they searched the Portapique properties. The money had been buried on the property and survived the fires that destroyed the buildings. The cash was turned over to the Public Trustee in June 2021.
Getting an accurate financial picture of the estate was complicated by the fact Wortman used deceptive financial practices.
During a search of Gabriel Wortman's Portapique cottage, the RCMP discovered this metal ammunition container hidden below ground under the deck, containing cash. The money was in bundles of $100 bills adding up to $705,000. (Mass Casualty Commission)
In his hand-written will, he named his long-time partner, Lisa Banfield, as both his sole beneficiary and the executor of his estate. Banfield relinquished her role as executor, which is why the public trustee is administering the estate.
However, she did not give up her claim to the estate itself. She has filed a civil lawsuit against the estate, to try to secure a share of the money.
But Banfield is not alone. The families of some of the murder victims have launched a lawsuit against the estate.
Lisa Banfield, the partner of the gunman who carried out the Nova Scotia mass shooting of April 2020, spoke in front of the Mass Casualty Commission on July 15. She is seeking a share of his estate. (CBC)
After starting the court action, that lawsuit was subsequently amended to name Banfield, her brother and her brother-in-law as respondents. The trio were added to the lawsuit after they were charged with supplying ammunition to the gunman. The charges against all three were sent to restorative justice and formally withdrawn last month.
As for the estate, a statement from the provincial Justice Department said it remains in limbo because of the lawsuits.
"Until the claims are settled," the statement reads in part, "any debts or payments related to the estate can not move forward."
Lucki's political 'promise' would have compromised mass casualty investigation, committee told
https://www.saltwire.com/author/francis-campbell-8011/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2UXEQ0sn8M&ab_channel=LittleGreyCells
Enjoy https://archive.org/details/BahHumbug
Trust that they know I did
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