Wednesday, 27 November 2024

Holt government re-evaluating Minto jail project

 

Grand Lake residents celebrate Liberal decision to go ahead with jail

Premier Susan Holt says government recognizes existing facilities are overcrowded, apologizes for disruption

Residents of the Grand Lake area were celebrating Thursday after Premier Susan Holt announced that the construction of a costly and controversial new provincial jail in the community will go ahead after all.

Holt said last week her government was reviewing the $66-million project launched by the previous Progressive Conservative government.

But in a Facebook post at 8:15 p.m. on Wednesday, the premier said it would go ahead as planned.

"As part of our process, we reviewed all the information, background, and justification for this centre. I want to apologize to the community of Grand Lake for the fear and disruption we have caused," she said.

"We understand that correctional institutions across the province are at capacity, and overcrowding is causing safety concerns for everyone in those centres. We need to make sure people are safe."

Grand Lake residents who had planned to be at the legislature to pressure the Liberal government on the issue instead turned their visit into a victory tour.

"We needed this. This is the best Christmas present ever. And we thank the premier so much," said resident Carol Smith, who described a mood of elation in Grand Lake since word of the decision got out Wednesday.

WATCH | Grand Lake jail will proceed:'We thank the premier so much':
 

Grand Lake celebrates as provincial jail plan goes ahead

Liberal government’s review of PC jail project determines construction should continue.

Earlier this year, the Liberals suggested while still in opposition that the PC government should rethink the project, especially after learning the original cost estimate had more than doubled.

"I'd like to know if the minister's ready to reconsider the high cost," Liberal MLA Jacques LeBlanc said during a budget estimates committee session in April.

Public Safety Minister Robert Gauvin told reporters that the distance between courthouses in the Fredericton area and the site was still "an issue" but "social acceptance" of the project in Grand Lake played a role in the decision to go ahead.

Holt suggested last week that she wanted to make sure the Grand Lake location was the best one.

Gauvin also said there hasn't been a day since he's been minister that existing jails in the province have been below 100 per cent capacity.

Mayor Kevin Nicklin, who had called the review "the straight weaponization of politics" because Grand Lake is represented by a PC MLA, Kris Austin, said Thursday his initial comments were "a knee-jerk reaction" to learning about the review from CBC News.

A man wearing a brown jacket and sunglasses speaks into a cluster of microphones. Grand Lake Mayor Kevin Nicklin said his initial comment after hearing the jail was under review was 'a knee-jerk reaction.' (Jacques Poitras/CBC)

"It was kind of a shock to us that it was under review, but as she explained a lot of projects are under review when you change government, to make sure," he said.

"They had to do their due diligence, and they did, and it seems to have worked out." 

Austin told reporters he was confident that if the Liberals based their review on evidence, they would give the project the green light.

"For me it was really a question of whether this government was going to play politics with it, or whether they were going to follow the same evidence I had, and I'm pleased that they followed the evidence and didn't use the political card on this one."

John Eric Miscich was relieved, too.

He grew up in Grand Lake and is studying in a New Brunswick Community College satellite program in the community that is training future jail staff.

An unsmiling man standing outside in a black coat. He has black hair and glasses. John Eric Miscich grew up in Grand Lake and is currently studying in a New Brunswick Community College program that is training future jail staff. (Jacques Poitras/CBC)

"I'm thankful that the premier was able to make the decision to keep it around. It means a lot to everybody. It means a lot to me. This is big for our community."

The jail, which was originally planned for within Fredericton's city limits until local opposition flared up, is scheduled to be finished and ready to open in 2026.

Austin, who was the public safety minister in the PC government, argued he did not steer the project to his riding and insisted the location, in the former village of Minto, scored highest in the province's site selection process.

He also cited rising crime numbers in making the case.

Some critics have suggested the jail wasn't needed and the funds should be used instead to address root causes of crime to help young people avoid ending up in court in the first place.

"We don't need another jail," Green Leader David Coon said Thursday. "What we need are real investments in programs to keep people out of jail — in mental health, in addiction, in housing."

The previous government said it would be spending $3.7 million on rehabilitative programs at the jail to help inmates avoid re-offending.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR


Jacques Poitras

Provincial Affairs reporter

Jacques Poitras has been CBC's provincial affairs reporter in New Brunswick since 2000. He grew up in Moncton and covered Parliament in Ottawa for the New Brunswick Telegraph-Journal. He has reported on every New Brunswick election since 1995 and won awards from the Radio Television Digital News Association, the National Newspaper Awards and Amnesty International. He is also the author of five non-fiction books about New Brunswick politics and history.

 
 
 
93 Comments
 
 
 
David Amos 
Surprise Surprise Surprise
 
 
 
David Amos
IMHO This secured the deal

CBC News · Posted: Nov 22, 2024 4:20 PM AST

"The mayor of the Municipality of Grand Lake, which includes Minto, said the premier's comments came as a surprise.

"If it does change to a different location or whatnot, it's just the straight weaponization of politics as far as I'm concerned," said Kevin Nicklin, noting his community did not vote Liberal in the recent provincial election.

"Now, all of a sudden the largest project that we have with them is going to be pulled. That doesn't make sense," he said.

The municipality has spent about $1 million on upgrading its water and sewer lines for the new jail, said Nicklin.

Bird Construction just applied for a building permit to pour concrete for the foundation, he said.

In addition, a number of students began classes in September at the municipal building, as part of a satellite New Brunswick Community College program, in the hopes of working as guards at the new jail."

 
 
 
 

Holt government re-evaluating Minto jail project

Premier Holt says she has concerns about location

Premier Susan Holt says her government is re-evaluating plans for a new jail in Minto.

"We do have some concerns about whether that's the best location," said Holt, answering a question on Friday from a listener during a province-wide interview on Information Morning.

The previous PC government began work on a new Central Regional Correctional Centre in the riding of former public safety minister Kris Austin over a year ago.

Bird Construction is managing the project. Land has been cleared and levelled, roads have been built and the site has been serviced. 

Tenders were issued in September for the foundation and electrical hookup.

The project is expected to cost about $66 million in total.

WATCH | 'I don't think it's too late to cancel it':
 

David Coon says there’s no need for a new jail

After Premier Susan Holt made comments on Information Morning about the possibility of re-evaluating the Minto jail project, Green Party Leader David Coon says the focus should be on the system instead.

"A lot of that work hasn't moved forward," said the premier.

"We do want to make sure that a massive expenditure such as that is the right thing in the right place," she said.

Holt said her team would look for data that shows the need for the jail and the services it will deliver. 

Former minister who led project still supportive

There's no question a new jail is needed, said Austin, who was re-elected MLA for Fredericton-Grand Lake but is no longer a government minister.

"As minister, every day I got the report that showed that we were overcapacity," he said to reporters outside the legislature late Friday morning.

"We were releasing low-risk offenders because we had no place to put them."

The Minto site came out on top after an objective selection process through the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure, he said.

sign near construction site with a truck in the background The site in Minto was chosen by the former PC government. (Shane Fowler)

Some of the selling points were that a clinic is located across the road, there are no homes within about a kilometre and it's a 40-minute drive to Fredericton or the Burton Bridge, said Austin.

A previous plan to build a new jail off of Vanier Industrial Drive in Fredericton was met with considerable opposition from residents in the area.

"You don't want to go through that again when you have an area ready to go, millions of dollars invested, a community that's excited about it," he said.

Grand Lake mayor taken by surprise

The mayor of the Municipality of Grand Lake, which includes Minto, said the premier's comments came as a surprise.

"If it does change to a different location or whatnot, it's just the straight weaponization of politics as far as I'm concerned," said Kevin Nicklin, noting his community did not vote Liberal in the recent provincial election.

A man with glasses wearing a suit and tie. Two people converse behind him Grand Lake Mayor Kevin Nicklin said choosing another location would be 'a straight weaponization of politics.' (Aniekan Etuhube/CBC)

"Now, all of a sudden the largest project that we have with them is going to be pulled. That doesn't make sense," he said.

The municipality has spent about $1 million on upgrading its water and sewer lines for the new jail, said Nicklin.

Bird Construction just applied for a building permit to pour concrete for the foundation, he said.

In addition, a number of students began classes in September at the municipal building, as part of a satellite New Brunswick Community College program, in the hopes of working as guards at the new jail.

Minister says government won't play politics

"We don't want to play politics with these projects," said newly appointed Public Safety Minister Robert Gauvin, answering a question in French during a reporter scrum at the legislature.

"I can guarantee there has not been a Liberal riding that has been identified to have the jail," he said.

"When there's a change of government, we evaluate projects. And that is simply what's happening."

About $5 million has been spent on the jail project so far, said Gauvin.

 Man in a suit and tie being interviewed by a group of journalists.Public Safety Minister Robert Gauvin said a decision on the Minto site will be made soon. (Jacques Poitras/CBC)

Meetings will be held next week to discuss its future, he said.

"We have to evaluate the need for a jail. And also, do they have the proper community services? … Do they have capacity for medical services?"

The distance to Fredericton could be an issue, he said.

Other possible sites that were in the running might be closer to medical services and could be more appropriate, he said.

"Ten years down the road, we'll have to look back and ask whether it was the right place to build it."

A decision on whether to proceed may be included in the capital budget before Christmas, said Gauvin, but he did not commit to that time frame.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR

Jennifer Sweet has been telling the stories of New Brunswickers for over 20 years. She is originally from Bathurst, got her journalism degree from Carleton University and is based in Fredericton. She can be reached at 451-4176 or jennifer.sweet@cbc.ca.

 
 
 
 
 

Tuesday, 1 August 2023

New Brunswick's next jail goes to Minto

 

New Brunswick's next jail goes to Minto

Opposition critic questions transparency of decision that will put jail in minister's riding

Public Safety Minister Kris Austin said in an interview that the decision to place the new jail in Grand Lake, which is also Austin's riding, came from a Department of Transportation and Infrastructure assessment that placed Grand Lake at the top out of nine or so proposals from other communities.

A news release Monday from the province said the property, which is provincially owned, exceeds the minimum 8.8 hectares required and there are few residential properties in the immediate surrounding area. It also meets the requirement that the jail be no more than a 60-minute drive from Fredericton. 

Austin said Public Safety gave the Transportation and Infrastructure Department several requirements for the new site, including water, sewer, whether the land is provincially owned, and land and soil quality.

A man wearing glasses stares at a camera off screen. Public Safety Minister Kris Austin says there are some benefits to having the location of the jail in a small community, which can use the economic spinoffs. (Patrick Richard/CBC)

The location originally chosen for the jail was near Fredericton's Vanier Industrial Park on the south side of the city. Although city council approved rezoning to make way for the jail, the province changed its mind about the site, citing pushback from some community members.

The government said it would seek a location outside the city "to minimize any perceived impact upon residents."

Austin said he isn't concerned about any possible pushback from Minto residents because he believes it is a better suited location than the Fredericton site.

He also said there are some benefits to having the location in Minto rather than Fredericton.

"Fredericton, you know, has a lot happening as an urban area," Austin said. "And I think there's greater benefit to a smaller community ... to be able to benefit from some of the spinoffs of having a correctional facility here."

A large piece of green land captured from above The jail was originally going to be built near the Vanier Industrial Park in Fredericton. (Google Earth)

Public Safety also looked at factors that Austin said wouldn't have been included in the other department's assessment. He said there is a health clinic in near the site and other nearby services for people who work there and for visitors. 

Grand Lake Mayor Kevin Nicklin said he is excited for the spinoffs from the new jail, and the jobs it will create.

Nicklin said he's going to hold a town hall meeting to explain the decision to everyone and listen to questions and concerns from residents.

Several communities, including Grand Lake, Arcadia, which includes the village of Gagetown, and Nackawic-Millville, expressed interest in having the jail in their municipalities.

Nackawic-Millville Mayor Tim Fox said in an emailed statement that the community "presented what we believed to be the best business case for the location of this facility, so while there is disappointment, we respect the decision that Government has made and congratulate Grand Lake on being chosen as the location."

Jacques LeBlanc, the public safety critic for the Opposition Liberals, said he questions the decision and how it was made.

"Now it's being in a minister's — the minister of public safety of all ministers — it's in his backyard, where it's a 60-minute drive from the downtown courthouse to the Minto Industrial Park," said LeBlanc.

A man stands in a parking lot. Grand Lake Mayor Kevin Nicklin says he is excited about potential spinoffs and new jobs the jail project will create. (Aniekan Etuhube/CBC)

Austin said he's thrilled the jail will be in his riding, his objective from the start was to be as hands-off as possible to let the process take place.

He said the department is following through with the Transportation and Infrastructure's recommendations and he doesn't think it is fair that Minto would be at a disadvantage because of his positions as MLA and Minister.

LeBlanc said he will be looking for more detailed information from the government on how the final location was chosen. 

He said there were likely options closer to the Fredericton courthouse.

LeBlanc also questioned the timing of the announcement since the Legislative Assembly is out for the summer and the opposition isn't able to ask questions in the legislature.

He said his team will be making some right-to-information requests to see what the process and timelines looked like for the decision. 

A many with grey hair in a suit stands in front of a wall covered with old photos. Jacques LeBlanc, Public Safety critic for the Liberal Opposition, said he will be looking for more detailed information from the government on how the final location was chosen.  (CBC)

The province has said a new jail is needed because of pressure on existing jails, but it has not released any data supporting its case.

Austin said he doesn't foresee any additional costs from the estimated $42 million because of the change to the Minto site from Fredericton, but inflation may change things. 

The release from the province says a request for proposals for the jail's design has been filed. Austin said he anticipates groundwork will begin in the fall, with the construction of the building likely to start in the spring.

"I've made it clear as the minister of the department that I want this project done as quickly as possible, because again, we still have these capacity issues in our other correctional facilities," said Austin.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR


Hannah Rudderham is a reporter with CBC New Brunswick. She grew up in Cape Breton, N.S., and moved to Fredericton in 2018. You can send story tips to hannah.rudderham@cbc.ca.

With files from Shift

CBC's Journalistic Standards and Practices
 
 
 
37 Comments
 
 

David Amos
I agree with Austin this time Surprise Surprise Surprise
 
 
 
Stephen Robertson 
As Gomer Pyle would say, "Surprise, Surprise, Surprise." 
 
 
 
 
Jos Allaire 
Of course Higgs will give it to a COR riding, back to his roots. 
 
 
Ronald Miller 
Reply to Jos Allaire
It was given to Lincoln, the residents rejected it, pay attention.  
 
 
David Amos
Reply to Jos Allaire
Cry me a river
 
 
 
 
Matt Steele
It will be quite a boost for Minto as it will bring new families and homes into the area as guards move to the area to live ; too bad some place like McAdam was not considered as they would have benefitted as well . Kris Austin seems to be on a role as it was announced last week that he was spending nearly a MILLION and a half on new weapons , and now he has got himself a new jail as well . Taxpayer cash seems to be flowing pretty freely for Austin .   


Kyle Woodman
Reply to Matt Steele
Dorchester isn't that far from Moncton, but very few if any guards live in Dorchester. Why would you expect any different for Minto? 
 
 
David Amos
Reply to Kyle Woodman
Are you putting down my Hometown?  
 
 
 
 

Province scratches plan to build new jail in Fredericton

Government now looking at unidentified location outside the city

The announcement came in a three-sentence news release sent late Monday afternoon.

CBC tried to reach the Department of Justice and Public Safety by phone and email, but no response was received by publication time.

The release says the government is looking at a location outside the city "to minimize any perceived impact upon residents."

A map showing how far away the jail would be from residential areas. The closest is 800 metres and the farthest is 1.14 kilometres                           A map of the proposed location presented to the City of Fredericton's planning advisory committee in December 2022. (City of Fredericton)

That location was not identified in the release.

The $42-million jail was originally supposed to be built near the Vanier Industrial Park on Fredericton's south side.

Past controversy

The City of Fredericton approved the zoning amendment in late January, but not without pushback from community members.

Before the rezoning request went to council, Fredericton's planning advisory committee recommended council reject the rezoning.

A group of people gather sit overlooking a city hall council chamber. City councillors voted 7-4 vote in favour of the rezoning for the new jail in late January. The decision was met with heckling from spectators at that meeting. (Aidan Cox/CBC)

During the first and second reading of the motion, around 100 people filled the viewing gallery. At that council meeting, concerns brought forward by speakers included fears that a jail could hurt the property values of nearby homes, while some said they would no longer feel safe with a jail located a few kilometres from where they and their children live.

Other speakers weren't against the proposed location, but were against the use of jails in general as a means to rehabilitate criminal offenders.

At the third and final reading of the motion, the 7-4 vote in favour of the rezoning was met with heckling from some of the roughly 75 spectators.

CBC requested an interview with the city, but was provided with a statement. A city spokesperson said the province has made the decision and "any questions about the rationale should be directed to the provincial government."

The province announced plans to build a 109-bed jail in December 2021, setting aside $2.5 million in the 2022-23 capital budget to plan and design the new building and acquire the land where it would be built.

In a news release announcing the project, then-public safety minister Ted Flemming said the system was stretched to capacity and that "crimes requiring incarceration have been trending up, including trafficking, production and distribution of controlled substances."

Last year, CBC News asked the province for all records that detail the need for a new jail, such as those that discuss the business case for the jail or capacity issues within existing correctional centres.

The Department of Justice and Public Safety refused to provide any records in response to that request, saying all the records are exempted under sections of the right-to-information law that protect confidential cabinet documents and advice to a cabinet minister.

The department also refused to provide copies to the provincial ombud, Marie-France Pelletier, whose office handles complaints about right to information, but later changed its mind and gave the ombud copies of records detailing the business case.

CBC's Journalistic Standards and Practices
 
 
 
29 Comments



David Amos

Surprise Surprise Surprise 
 
 
 
Jon Robbins  
I lived 2 blocks away from a jail in Manitoba. It was pretty safe. The pearl clutching is stupid. Did neighbourhood residents think that released inmates would immediately try to break into their houses on the way home from being released?  
 
 
David Amos
Reply to Jon Robbins 
I was raised in Dorchester and we never felt fear  
 
 
 
 
Fred Dee
likely just outside Freddy.... no tax money for Freddy!!!  
 
 
David Amos

Reply to Fred Dee  
Why is it that I don't feel bad about that? 


David Amos

Reply to Fred Dee  
Too Too Funny  
 
 
 
 
Graham McCormack  
Another decision backtracked on.
 
 
David Amos 

Reply to Graham McCormack 
There is another way to look at that 
 
 
Ronald Miller  
Reply to Graham McCormack
More proof this gov't listens to the people. It proposes ideas, goes through with those that make sense and makes changes to those that need adjustments. This is how good gov't works, enjoy it, it does not happen often.   
 
 
Graham McCormack  
Reply to Ronald Miller 
No just proof it listens to people scream at them. Same reason there is a review of Policy 713. 
 



 
 
Ray Skavinsky  
I like the fact the government has the public interest at heart Shows me they do listen which is big in my books.
 
 
David Amos 
Reply to Ray Skavinsky 
Dream on 
 
 
Ray Skavinsky 
Reply to David Amos
Well, in the instance they did Mr.Amos. one should hive credit where it's due IMHO. 
 
 
 
 
 
Wilbur Ross  
Wish they would try this hard to build a school or two.
 
 
Michael Cain 
Reply to Wilbur Ross  
Infrastructure is good for photo ops, but what they need is staff.
 
 
David Amos 

Reply to Wilbur Ross 
Good luck seeing that wish come true
 
 
Ronald Miller 
Reply to Wilbur Ross  
A number have been built with more planned.  
 
 
Wilbur Ross   
Reply to Ronald Miller 
None more than were planned 10 years ago. Obviously things have changed but their plans remain the same. Instead they are focused on prisons like its 1995. 
 
 
 
 

Grand Lake makes pitch to get new jail after province withdraws from deal with Fredericton

Mayor Kevin Nicklin says Minto's industrial park is an ideal site for $42M jail

Kevin Nicklin said he's written to Justice and Public Safety Minister Kris Austin, whose riding includes Grand Lake, asking him to choose the municipality as the site for a new provincial jail.

"As far as I'm concerned, the municipality of Grand Lake would love to have it," Nicklin said.

"We're centrally located. We have the availability and the space in our industrial park. We have water and sewerage, and road and fire hydrants are already down in that area."

Kris Austin, wearing glasses, a black blazer and blue dress shirt, looks off camera. Austin has defended his government's decision to build a new jail in Fredericton, citing crime rates and saying the current correctional system has capacity issues. (Ed Hunter/CBC)

Nicklin said Austin has so far only written back to acknowledge the letter.

Nicklin's pitch to see a jail built in Minto, about 50 kilometres east of Fredericton, comes days after the Department of Justice and Public Safety issued a brief news release saying it will no longer build a jail in Fredericton.

The department cited concerns raised by some residents over its planned location in the Vanier Industrial Park.

"The government is now looking at a location outside the city to minimize any perceived impact upon residents," the release said.

WATCH | Premier Blaine Higgs answers questions about proposed new jail:

‘Significant opposition’ to proposed site of new jail: Premier Higgs

Duration 0:59
The New Brunswick government says it will no longer build a provincial jail in Fredericton after hearing concerns from residents.

Austin wasn't made available for an interview Wednesday, with a department spokesperson saying they have nothing further to add.

Austin's provincial riding includes the municipality of Grand Lake, which was recently created through local government reform by merging the communities of Minto and Chipman.

Austin's riding office is located on Main Street in Minto.

No other site yet selected, Higgs says

Speaking to reporters Wednesday, Premier Blaine Higgs didn't provide more information about why his government pulled out of the deal with Fredericton.

But he said no alternative site has been selected.

"There was significant opposition to the location that had been cited, and so at this point, we are looking for options in areas that may be more receptive to having it in their community," Higgs said when asked about it during a news conference on the Charlotte County forest fires.

Asked what the chances are that it will go to Grand Lake, Higgs said the jail could still go anywhere.

"I don't have any site in mind. I don't know of other sites that could be possible solutions, but at this point in time [the Department of Transportation and Infrastructure] is looking at other locations."

When the new jail was first announced for Fredericton, the province said it was needed to accommodate a growing provincial jail population.

Nicklin said building the jail in Grand Lake would make sense both for the province and for the municipality.

He said the province already owns land in the industrial park in Minto, and the area is close to a medical clinic.

He said there would be spin-off benefits, including jobs that would need to be filled to staff the jail.

Fredericton wants to 'recoup' costs from province

The jail's construction would also spur economic activity, and once completed, it's expected that employees would spend money at local shops and restaurants, he said.

The New Brunswick government announced it would build a new jail in Fredericton in the fall of 2021, but the exact location remained unknown until last November, when Fredericton city council agreed to sell the province a 25-acre plot of land in the Vanier Industrial Park for the jail.

A group of people gather sit overlooking a city hall council chamber. About 75 people filled the viewing gallery at Fredericton city hall's council chambers to watch the third and final vote in January on a rezoning motion that would allow the construction of the jail. (Aidan Cox/CBC)

A rezoning process by council was met with intense opposition in January from residents of the nearby Lincoln Heights neighbourhood, who packed city council chambers to voice concerns the jail would reduce their sense of safety, and lower the value of their homes.

Mayor Kate Rogers had welcomed the jail's expected construction in Fredericton, and council ultimately approved the rezoning for it in a 7-4 vote.

In an email Tuesday, city spokesperson Shasta Stairs said the process "consumed considerable staff and council time and also caused anxiety for some residents in the area."

Stairs said now that the province has decided not to buy the land, the city will work to "recoup any related costs" from the province.

CBC News asked for an interview with Rogers about the province's decision, but Stairs said she was out of town and unavailable to comment.

ABOUT THE AUTHOR


Aidan Cox

Journalist

Aidan Cox is a journalist for the CBC based in Fredericton. He can be reached at aidan.cox@cbc.ca and followed on Twitter @Aidan4jrn.


 
15 Comments



David Amos

The plot thickens 
 
 
 
David Amos
I have no respect for the Justice Minister but his local Mayor does have a point  
 
 
Dan Lee  
 
Reply to David Amos
hmmm....jail would get flooded......... 
 
 
David Amos  
Reply to Dan Lee 
In Minto???  
 
 
 
 
Murray Brown
Hanwell or New Maryland should make a play for the new jail. It’s odd how the Lincoln area of Fredericton hate’s progress. They have no stores, no shops, no pharmacies. It’s a complete wasteland. 
  
 
 
David Amos  
Reply to Murray Brown 
Dream on


Robert Fish 
Reply to Murray Brown  
Actually, its a nice community that can drive ten mins to the garbage or stores,prisons and industry...Next 
 
 
 
 
 
Samual Johnston  
   
 
 
Lou Bell
  
Reply to Samual Johnston   


Ben Haroldson 
 
Reply to Lou Bell
Your higgy guy looks like he's on his way out 
 
 
David Amos  
Reply to Ben Haroldson 
Obviously somebody else was  
 

Clive Gibbons  
Reply to Ben Haroldson  
We can only hope 




 
Charles GALL  
Recoup the losses from the taxpayers in the subdivision. they were the ones doing all the itching 
 
 
David Amos  
Reply to Charles GALL  
C'est Vrai




Samual Johnston  
Someone called in a favour 
 
 
David Amos  
Reply to Samual Johnston  
No doubt about it
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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