Education
Minister Bill Hogan answered questions from reporters Friday at the
legislature about his review of Policy 713, which has provisions to
create a safe learning environment for LGBTQ students. (Patrick Richard/CBC)
New Brunswick's education minister is blaming the media for widespread public backlash over the review of Policy 713.
"The
message that I've been saying hasn't been clearly heard or communicated
by the press, for whatever the reason," Bill Hogan said on Friday.
Protests
involving hundreds of people have taken place this week in several
communities around the province. Most recently, on Friday, students from
Kennebecasis Valley High and Rothesay High rallied in the Quispamsis
Arts and Culture Park.
It's been happening since it was revealed
the Progressive Conservative government was reviewing a policy
introduced in 2020 that lays out minimum requirements for school
districts to create a safe, welcoming learning environment for students
of all sexual orientations and gender identities.
Advocates for
the LGBTQ community have said the policy is invaluable to protect
students who are at greater risk of mental health issues, bullying,
parental abuse and suicide.
Students from area high schools rallied in Quispamsis, near Saint John, on Friday in support of Policy 713. (Roger Cosman/CBC)
"This policy certainly is a good policy," Hogan said on Information Morning Fredericton.
"We
currently do protect the rights of LGBTQ … students and create safe
spaces for them in an inclusive environment, and that will continue," he
said.
"There is no intent to try and walk any of that stuff back."
However,
at the same time, Hogan also suggested that so-called "community
standards" and the wishes of parents deserve more consideration than
they are currently being given.
"Notwithstanding the rights of
people that are protected under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms … in
my community, people believe that they should be informed if their child
says all of a sudden they want to be referred to by a different
pronoun."
Hogan said he's received emails, texts, Facebook messages, and voicemails from people complaining about Policy 713.
He
once again declined to quantify those complaints, saying he didn't want
to bicker over how many or which ones had formed the basis for the
review.
"It's a minister's prerogative to review the policy," he said.
WATCH | Students stand up for Policy 713:
Students stage walkout in support of Policy 713
Duration 2:02
Hundreds
of students from Kennebecasis Valley and Rothesay High School lent
their support Friday for New Brunswick’s school policy that aims to
protect queer and trans kids.
Hogan said
questions about why he would not release the complaints deflected from
"the real issue" — that being the application of Policy 713.
"There seems to be some confusion created with the policy in the curriculum," he said.
"Children
are coming home saying, 'I like to hang out with my hockey buddies.
Does that mean I'm gay, Dad?' And parents are saying, 'Where did you
hear that?'"
Clearly, the policy is not curriculum, he said, but
what we're teaching and when we're teaching it needs to be examined, he
elaborated in a scrum with reporters later Friday morning.
Hogan
did give one example of a relevant complaint he's received. It was from
a parent who objected to their child in Grade 2 wanting to use
gender-neutral pronouns.
A case like that has nothing to do with "a safe environment," he said, and the parent's wishes should be given more respect.
"If
a parent doesn't want their child to be referred to as they … would
prefer for them to be referred to as she or he, you know, that's a
parent's right," he said.
Policy 713 leaves it to the student's
discretion whether parents are notified about their informal personal
pronoun choices in school. Earlier this week, Premier Blaine Higgs said
that was the main issue with the policy.
Five
of the main organizers of the Saint John walk-out earlier this week,
from left, Nason Murphy from Harbour View High, Isla Hayward from St.
Malachy's Memorial High, Adelle Read from Harbour View, Logan Martin
from Saint John High, and Kaylee Johnson from Saint John High. (Mia Urquhart/CBC)
The
idea that notifying parents that their child is choosing to use a
different name or pronoun in school would not affect the student's
safety contradicts assessments that have been heard from longtime
educators and doctors who work with the LGBTQ community, that some
students would be in danger if their parents knew they were trans or
gay.
Asked about the potential risk to students whose families
might kick them out of the house, or worse, because of their sexual or
gender identity, Hogan maintained his stance that there are other
protections against that.
"I spent 35 years in the public
education system. I'm well aware that not every parent is perfect and
that we have some serious, serious challenges with some parents and some
students aren't safe in their homes.
"We do have a mechanism to address that and that's child protection," he said.
"If
a student says, 'I don't feel safe, I think I'm going to get abused if I
go home and say this to my parents,' then the obligation is on the
teacher, legally, to call Social Development and call child protection
and report that."
Another reason he isn't comfortable with Policy
713 is his belief it's "asking teachers to be not upfront and truthful
with parents."
Hogan said in his opinion, it would "cause
problems" if a student met some classmates while at the mall with their
parents and the classmates called them by a name the parents didn't know
anything about.
It would be better to share the information, he
suggested, because that would facilitate the involvement of professional
counsellors.
Hogan said he wouldn't comment on what
Premier Higgs said earlier this week, when he said he doesn't think
elementary and kindergarten children should attend drag queen storytime
events.
Higgs said, "Are we trying to teach tolerance and acceptance, or are we trying to teach promotion?"
But Hogan said he does not believe children "learn to be gay."
Hogan
said he had done a lot of research on gender issues and understands
gender exists on a spectrum and that gender dysmorphia is a real thing.
Hogan acknowledged that few members of the PC caucus seem to share his concerns about Policy 713.
They have not reported much feedback from constituents concerned about parental rights being neglected by the policy, he said.
He
speculated that may be because they don't understand the significance
of seeing "they" or "them" used on their child's report card.
One PC MLA, Andrea Anderson-Mason, had been scheduled to give an interview on the matter to Information Morning on Friday but cancelled Thursday night, saying she'd been told to let Hogan speak instead.
Hogan said that was not by his order.
Hogan
confirmed that he had yet to meet with any representatives of LGBTQ
advocacy groups for the policy review and had no firm dates set to do
so, but said he has "full intention" of consulting the LGBTQ community,
parents and teachers.
He said he also wants to make sure
gender-neutral washrooms are available in schools. And in cases where
there's no separate facility available, to find out whether female
students are comfortable with trans students using theirs.
Jennifer
Sweet has been telling the stories of New Brunswickers for over 20
years. She is originally from Bathurst, got her journalism degree from
Carleton University and is based in Fredericton. She can be reached at
451-4176 or jennifer.sweet@cbc.ca.
Go Figure Why my MLA Wetmore won't speak to me or answer an email
David Amos
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Oh Dear
"One PC MLA, Andrea Anderson-Mason, had been scheduled
to give an interview on the matter to Information Morning on Friday but
cancelled Thursday night, saying she'd been told to let Hogan speak
instead.
Hogan said that was not by his order."
David Amos
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"New Brunswick's education minister is blaming the media
for widespread public backlash over the review of Policy 713."
BINGO
Lou Bell
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Mr. Hogan is spot on with blaming the media
with all of this , and especially our publicly owned broadcaster !
Pushing that there were only 3 email complaints sent and pretty well no
complaints and so no need for a review. Well ,as warned , there is now a
petition with over 2500 names on it demanding the bill be abolished ,
all in the name of politics only by this media and it can take full
blame for it ! Intimations of it being abolished , or major changes
detrimental to the protection of students , among other things and this
is something the media can wear and blame no one else but themselves .
David Amos
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Reply to Lou Bell
Why is it that I am not surprised that you want last word?
David Amos
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Lou Bell
I bet Cardy's fans are much upset that I agree with Higgy on this issue
David Amos
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At the risk of being redundant:
Can't anyone see this for what it is?
Sam Smithers
What we seem to be being told is that this
gov't drafts such perfect policies that they dare never be reviewed,
good to know going forward.
David Amos
Content Deactivated Reply to Sam Smithers
Surprise Surprise Surprise
Mark Benson
This policy was in place while certain children
were told they couldn’t take part in certain school activities during
the fall of 2021
Graham McCormack
Reply to Mark Benson
And?
Donald LeBlanc
Reply to Graham McCormack
Hogan says “in my community “. Well in his
community according to a question in the Legislature, a black teacher
was poorly treated, he is before the Human Rights Commission, still
waiting for a hearing after 1 and 1/2 years and the Government side is
lawyering up. Is this the NB we want?
David Amos
Reply to Donald LeBlanc
Apparently so
William Peters
Just take a neutral stance. Call everyone "you"
or "it" and have everyone be offended equally. Are we going to allow
ourselves to be mired in semantics to the point where we convince
ourselves that identity is even real? Philosophers will tell you with
very insightful reasoning that identity is fictitious. You are not what
you think you are. You are confused, because that is what we all are.
We seek to define things we do not understand. It is a fool's errand to
allow youth to lead us deeper into our confusion by being the defenders
of identity. The sort of things we have convinced ourselves of in
numbers is becoming very troubling. Should we tell their parents isn't
even a pertinent question. Why are we even on this path? It is making me
question whether of not having a democracy is a good thing. We may need
a philosopher King soon enough to get us back into some guided
introspection. .
Michael Cain
Reply to William Peters
Check this site in BC "Sexual Orientation and
Gender Identity (SOGI)"; puts it into perspective. After all, it is a
national initiative, we are just slow to respond.
Sarah Brown
Reply to William Peters
You clearly have no understanding of this issue if you think it comes down to just “semantics”.
David Amos
Reply to Sarah Brown
Trust that I have a very clear understanding of this issue
Jim Lake
Perhaps the reason the Minister’s message isn’t
being “clearly heard or communicated” is because the Minister isn’t
clearly communicating his message!
Graham McCormack
Reply to Jim Lake
It changes every time he speaks to reporters.
David Amos
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Reply to Graham McCormack
How often do you speak to reporters?
Aaron Saunders
The Government is making such a stink about
this seemingly none-issue. I think this must be a cover for something
big and controversial that the PCs have cooking.
Sam Smithers
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Reply to Aaron Saunders
Jim Lake
Reply to Sam Smithers
It’s pretty clear that it’s not simply a review
when the minister says the review and any changes will be completed in
two weeks. Sounds like he already has decided changes are coming. And
if that’s the case, who is being consulted on the suitability of any
changes? My guess would be the Premier is the only one being consulted
with.
Al Clark
Reply to Sam Smithers
Partly correct. It is an infinitessimally small minority making the policy an issue in the first place.
David Amos
Reply to Al Clark
His name is Cardy Correct?
Billy Joe Mcallister
So a special interest group of educators - PIE
are using their influence on the student population for their benefit. I
am quite sure this has gone way to far already and we as parents and
grandparents have a long way to go to catch up
Douglas James
Reply to Billy Joe Mcallister
I'm a parent and a grandparent and am already caught up. I did my research.
Billy Joe Mcallister
Reply to Douglas James
I'm sure you are but many of us are not.
Mostly I hear from my grand children who are all very well adjusted,
secure, and doing fine. I've been hearing stories of gender identity
and even kids identifying as a cat. I just attributed it all to social
trends. I didn't know about PIE, 713, and all the rest. Wow! it's mind
blowing.
Al Clark
Reply to Billy Joe Mcallister
Thinking you need to "do yer research" a little more about the cat thing (which the premier is unwilling to debunk)
Winston Gray
Reply to Billy Joe Mcallister
You have not heard stories of a kid identifying
as a cat, that is misinformation that you clearly don’t have the
ability to detect.
David Amos
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Reply to Billy Joe Mcallister
Methinks we should stock up on Kitty Litter just in case we get some company who look at things diferently N'esy Pas?
David Amos
Reply to Douglas James
Me Too
David Amos
Reply to Al Clark
Perhaps you should "do yer research" and confer with your favourite Chief of Staff
David Amos
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Reply to Winston Gray
Have you ever heard of an old man identifying as a Tom Cat?
Pat Holland
He is 100% correct to ensure parents are kept
in the loop about their children. I hope they hold their ground and do
not cave to a loud minority of people. And do not loose sight of what is
the correct thing to do.
Anna Westyorks
Reply to Pat Holland
I don't think teachers should be outing kids to
their parents. It's a child's right to tell their parents when they're
ready and taking that away could be traumatising.
David Amos
Reply to Pat Holland
I agree
Graham McCormack
Reply to Pat Holland
The loud minority are the people that are
spreading the misinformation about what Policy 713 is and they are not
the people who are in favour of this policy.
Jake
I'm not so sure either side has all the answers.
David Amos
Reply to Jake
Nobody ever does
Donald Fox
What Hogan needs to renmember is that young
people have a irght to their privacy - yes even from Mom and Dad. Hogan
is hiding behind the rationale that the parents have a higher level
right to know - no they don't! By making this claim, he knows that it
amounts to ratting out on young people to the point where gender
identity will be kept secret and hidden from the school system - which
is what Hogan really wants. BTW - most parents already know about their
kids - so give the self-righteous attitude a rest Mr. Hogan.
So much for Disney relocating to NB. Higgs is dragging this province into the culture wars and loving every minute of it.
David Amos
Reply to Wilbur Ross
Too bad so sad My dog and I were so looking forward to Goofy coming to our neck of the woods
Mandel Rooney
I had made a comment earlier that 40% of
homeless youth were LGBTQ+ kids because their parents were prone to kick
them out when they found out (like when they were informed about their
name or pronoun maybe?). But I was wrong. It's 40% of all homeless
people. That's so much worse than I thought.
Pat Holland
Reply to Mandel Rooney
Children under 16 are not being kicked out
because the schools are informing the parents of what their children are
identifying as. Would love to see the source on that
Winston Gray
Reply to Pat Holland
The source is that 25-40% of homeless youth are
part of LGBTQ because they do not get the support at home, and are
kicked out or emotionally abused until they leave.
Mandel Rooney
Reply to Pat Holland
Those are the numbers. What do you think the
cause is? Whether the parents actively kick them out (which does
happen) or make their home life so miserable that they feel it's better
to leave, do you see a significant difference? There are a number of
studies on the topic, google it and you will find them.
David Amos
Reply to Mandel Rooney
Drug abuse
David Amos
Reply to Pat Holland
Me too
Mandel Rooney
Three questionable emails can trigger a policy
review? If it's not three, tell us (truthfully) how many people
complained about this policy. It's been on the books, with multi party
support, for something like 30 months now.
Winston Gray
Content Deactivated Reply to Mandel Rooney
Winston Gray
Reply to Winston Gray
Higgs’*
Geoff MacDonald
Reply to Mandel Rooney
Well, there most certainly will be a lot more complaints now because of this coverage which is continuing, unabated.
Mandel Rooney
Reply to Geoff MacDonald
That's why there should be a reasonable threshold of
complaints before this review process happens. Riling up the rubes
based on three emails is really not a valid review process.
Al Clark
Reply to Geoff MacDonald
There is only one complaint that matters and it's obvious who that is!
David Amos
Reply to Al Clark
Higgy?
David Amos
Reply to Geoff MacDonald
Gee I wonder why
Douglas James
The oldest excuse in the books. Blame the evil media. They just never get it right. Right out of Donald Trump's playbook.
David Amos
Reply to Douglas James
You should know that game quite well
G. Timothy Walton
We have a premier who's justifying this by quoting anecdotes.
We have an education minister who's apparently innumerate when it comes to counting complaints.
We have three MLAs openly stating discomfort with
aspects of a government's policies, something almost guaranteed to kill a
political career.
And we have Kris Austin pushing for it, once again
proving that calling him the Minister of Public Safety is this
government's finest oxymoron.
David Amos
Reply to G. Timothy Walton
Welcome back to the circus
G. Timothy Walton
Reply toDavid Amos
That explains the monkey business.
Winston Gray
“ Bill Hogan says student safety would not be hurt by sharing gender name choices with parents”
Literally all of the LGBTQ community and child advocates disagree with this statement.
David Amos
Reply to Winston Gray
Literally Legions of Maritimers disagree with you
SarahRose Werner
"He speculated that may be because they don't
understand the significance of seeing 'they' or 'them' used on their
child's report card." - Mr Hogan, have you considered that maybe the
parents in question understand these pronouns perfectly and simply don't
have a problem with them?
David Amos
Reply to SarahRose Werner
Have you considered the legions of Maritimers who do have a problem with such nonsense?
SarahRose Werner
"If a parent doesn't want their child to be
referred to as they … would prefer for them to be referred to as she or
he, you know, that's a parent's right," - This is where the rubber hits
the road. Is the final decision the parents' right or the child's
right? There isn't any middle ground on this one. It's one or the
other. Keep in mind that saying the parents should make the decision
doesn't change who the child is. It just tells the child there's
something shameful about who they are, something they have to hide from
others.
David Amos
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Reply to SarahRose Werner
How many children and grand children do you have?
David Amos
Content Deactivated
Reply to SarahRose Werner
If my child breaks your window who pays?
David Amos
Content Deactivated
Reply to SarahRose Werner
If your child harms my child at school who do I sue You or Higgy?
David Amos
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Reply to SarahRose Werner
Who is muzzling who?
Richard Cleveland
Reply to SarahRose Werner
what does that question add to the discussion?
SarahRose Werner
Reply toRichard Cleveland
It's the core of the discussion. This is what the entire rest of the discussion boils down to.
Winston Gray
Reply to David Amos
What does that have to do with anything?
Darwin Morton
Reply to SarahRose Werner
I'm sorry, a parent cannot choose if their child is
LGBTQ2S+ or not. They may WANT to... but it is NOT their right. That
belongs to the living, breathing, human being... the child.
I know, it can be hard to understand, harder to
accept... but being a parent is tough job. You get what you get, your
job (and right) is to love her, them, him,
David Amos
Reply to Winston Gray
I repeat Who is muzzling who?
Al Clark
immersion debacle 2.0
David Amos
Content Deactivated
Reply to Al Clark
Methinks you and Holt's Chief of Staff love this circus as much as I do N'esy Pas?
Students from area high schools rallied in Quispamsis, near Saint John, on Friday in support of Policy 713. (Roger Cosman/CBC) 
Five
of the main organizers of the Saint John walk-out earlier this week,
from left, Nason Murphy from Harbour View High, Isla Hayward from St.
Malachy's Memorial High, Adelle Read from Harbour View, Logan Martin
from Saint John High, and Kaylee Johnson from Saint John High. (Mia Urquhart/CBC)
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