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From: "Ügyfélszolgálat (BM)" <ugyfelszolgalat@bm.gov.hu>
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:32:35 +0000
Subject: Valasz
To: David Amos <motomaniac333@gmail.com>
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From: "Ügyfélszolgálat (BM)" <ugyfelszolgalat@bm.gov.hu>
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 09:32:35 +0000
Subject: Valasz
To: David Amos <motomaniac333@gmail.com>
Tisztelt Feladó!
Tájékoztatjuk, hogy elektronikus levelét fogadta a Belügyminisztérium
levelezőrendszere, megérkezett az
ugyfelszolgalat@bm.gov.hu<
A jogszabályban meghatározott időn belül válaszolunk levelére, illetve
továbbítjuk a címzett személynek vagy hivatali szervezetnek.
Kérjük szíves türelmét a válasz megérkezéséig.
Ez egy automatikus üzenet, kérjük, ne válaszoljon rá!
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______________________________
Ezen üzenet és annak bármely csatolt anyaga bizalmas, jogi védelem
alatt áll, a nyilvános közléstől védett. Az üzenetet kizárólag a
címzett, illetve az általa meghatalmazottak használhatják fel. Ha Ön
nem az üzenet címzettje, úgy kérjük, hogy telefonon, vagy e-mail-ben
értesítse erről az üzenet küldőjét és törölje az üzenetet, valamint
annak összes csatolt mellékletét a rendszeréből. Ha Ön nem az üzenet
címzettje, abban az esetben tilos az üzenetet vagy annak bármely
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---------- Original message ----------
From: David Amos <motomaniac333@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 05:32:27 -0400
Subject: Prime Minister Viktor Orbán's people in Ottawa don't have to
listen to the CBC show now that they can read the transcript EH?
To: sajto@mfa.gov.hu, chrystia.freeland@ international.gc.ca,
"George.Soros" <George.Soros@ opensocietyfoundations.org>,
miniszterelnok@mk.gov.hu, informacio.was@mfa.gov.hu,
intcomm@mk.gov.hu, sajto@keh.hu, sonja.wintersberger@unvienna. org,
anne.thomas@unvienna.org, ugyfelszolgalat@bm.gov.hu, mk@mk.gov.hu
Cc: David Amos <david.raymond.amos@gmail.com>, mission.ott@mfa.gov.hu,
Listen5:45
From: David Amos <motomaniac333@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 05:32:27 -0400
Subject: Prime Minister Viktor Orbán's people in Ottawa don't have to
listen to the CBC show now that they can read the transcript EH?
To: sajto@mfa.gov.hu, chrystia.freeland@
"George.Soros" <George.Soros@
miniszterelnok@mk.gov.hu, informacio.was@mfa.gov.hu,
intcomm@mk.gov.hu, sajto@keh.hu, sonja.wintersberger@unvienna.
anne.thomas@unvienna.org, ugyfelszolgalat@bm.gov.hu, mk@mk.gov.hu
Cc: David Amos <david.raymond.amos@gmail.com>, mission.ott@mfa.gov.hu,
boris.johnson.mp@parliament.uk ,
Bill.Morneau@canada.ca
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ thecurrent/how-right-wing- populist-leaders-are-eroding- democracy-author-1.4623719
http://www.cbc.ca/radio/
How right-wing populist leaders are eroding democracy: author
Comments
David Amos
I wonder if any Prime
Minister Viktor Orbán's people in Ottawa will listen to this. They
certainly played dumb about it with me yesterday
The Current Transcript for April 18, 2018
Host: Laura LynchHow right-wing populist leaders are eroding democracy: author
Guests: Andras Petho, Daniel Ziblatt
LL: I'm Laura Lynch, sitting in for Anna Maria Tremonti, and you're listening to The Current.
SOUNDCLIP
VOICE 1: Budapest waking up on Monday to a more powerful government with even bolder anti-immigrant, anti-EU ambitions. Hungary's right-wing strongman Viktor Orbán has won a third straight term, an overwhelming majority, and the power to change constitutional laws. The result could deepen divisions within the EU and for the country's liberals it may signal a crushing four years ahead. Top of Orbán’s agenda, a move to ban NGOs that support migration, particularly those backed by U.S. financier George Soros.
VOICE 1: Budapest waking up on Monday to a more powerful government with even bolder anti-immigrant, anti-EU ambitions. Hungary's right-wing strongman Viktor Orbán has won a third straight term, an overwhelming majority, and the power to change constitutional laws. The result could deepen divisions within the EU and for the country's liberals it may signal a crushing four years ahead. Top of Orbán’s agenda, a move to ban NGOs that support migration, particularly those backed by U.S. financier George Soros.
LL:
That was Reuters on April 9th, reporting on the election of Viktor
Orbán to his third term as Hungary's prime minister. Civil libertarians
in Hungary say the strong majority Mr. Orbán and his Fidesz party
received will mean a deepening assault on immigrants, the political
opposition, and the media. This past Sunday, tens of thousands protested
against Viktor Orbán's government in Budapest. Investigative journalist
Andras Petho has been digging into Viktor Orbán's politics and
finances. He is the founder of the website Direkt36.hu. Earlier this
month he was accused of being one of 200 "Soros mercenaries," called for
their alleged association with Orbán's public enemy number one: global
philanthropist and political activist George Soros. Andras Petho joins
me from Budapest, Hungary. Hello.
ANDRAS PETHO: Hello.
LL: Can you start by telling me a little bit about direkt36.hu? What does it do?
ANDRAS PETHO:
Yes. Direkt36 has been around for three years, a little bit more than
three years, and we are an investigative reporting organization, we are a
non-profit, and what we do is that we dig deep into political
corruption stories or you know abuses of power in general.
LL: And so does that mean that you have written directly about corruption in Viktor Orbán's government?
ANDRAS PETHO:
Yes. Yes we've covered quite extensively how people close to Mr. Orbán,
including his family members have been benefiting from state projects,
from public money, often projects funded by the European Union which is
you know a frequent target of Mr. Orbán's attacks.
LL:
Now we've heard about the Hungarian government's animosity toward the
American financier George Soros. Why has George Soros become the club
that's wielded by the government against its perceived enemies?
ANDRAS PETHO:
Well that's a good question. I think for that you need to understand a
little bit more Mr. Orbán and his approach to politics. I mean he's a
kind of a warrior type of politician. He's always in action and, you
know, he's been part of Hungary in Hungary's politics since the regime
change so nearly three decades. And so he built his whole story on the
notion that Hungary is under attack and he's the only one who can defend
it. And you know the enemies changed all the time. You know sometimes
he was defending the country against the communists, and then you know
it was Brussels, and then the IMF, and now it's George Soros. And you
know certainly you know the values that Mr. Orbán is promoting are quiet
different from the way that Mr. Soros and his foundation is promoting. I
think it's also probably that you know he's a good target. He doesn't
live here in Hungary. He doesn't really you know contrary to the
government's attacks.
LL: What threat does George Soros represent according to Viktor Orbán?
ANDRAS PETHO:
Well the government is saying that and this has become their main
message ever since the migration crisis in 2015 that George Soros and
his organizations are promoting migration and so that's why that's why
it needs to be stopped. That's the government's version.
LL:
Even though as you say Soros doesn't live there he does fund a
university there and he's been accused by other regimes in the past of
funding revolution as in Ukraine. So this isn't the first time that he's
been held up as a symbol of a threat. But can you tell me what about
the relationship between the Hungarian weekly Figyelo and the government
of Viktor Orbán?
ANDRAS PETHO:
Figyelo was bought by a businesswoman and historian a little bit more
than a year ago who is quite close to the government. He's openly
supporting the government and she used to be a close adviser to the
prime minister. This has become a pattern in Hungary you know that the
government is not controlling most of the media directly but through you
know business people close to the government.
LL:
So you have your name published in this magazine in a list of what are
called Soros mercenaries operating in Hungary. What did you think when
you saw that?
ANDRAS PETHO:
It was a strange feeling. I mean of course it's not nice to see this
happening. At the same time it wasn't that unexpected, that's
surprising. I mean this was a kind of natural outcome of the rhetoric of
the campaign, you know the government. And Mr. Orbán was talking about
these so-called Soros mercenaries the run up to the election and so I
think it was just a matter of time when you know somebody came up with
some names, actual names.
LL: But there is a relationship between Direkt36.hu and Soros, correct?
ANDRAS PETHO:
Yes. Yes. You know like every conspiracy theory; I mean it also had
some element of truth. I mean but this was not a secret. Direkt36.hu is a
proud recipient of grants from the Open Society Foundations.
LL: Which are run by George Soros, yes?
ANDRAS PETHO:
Yes. Yes, which was founded by George Soros. But we also received
grants from other foundations and actually most of our revenue is coming
from our own readers, partly crowd funded organization, we have
received support from thousands of Hungarians who are living here.
LL: So are you George Soros mercenary?
ANDRAS PETHO: I don't think so. But yeah it's just ridiculous.
LL:
In light of the political atmosphere in Hungary, what does it mean to
the safety of people who are being named as these agents for George
Soros?
ANDRAS PETHO:
Personally I and my colleagues haven't received any threats or verbal
threats but I know that other organizations who have also been targeted
by the government and government controlled media, you know, sometimes
they get phone calls from people who are calling them traitors or
sometimes they get phone calls from people who want to get the phone
number of George Soros. So there are some bizarre situations.
LL:
Does what's happened here with the naming as a mercenary; it seems to
sort of put you in the crosshairs of this government, does it change
anything about the way Direkt36.hu will investigate Viktor Orbán and his
government?
ANDRAS PETHO:
No, in fact we decided to respond to these so-called list in a low key
manner. And you know I think the best response that we can do is to you
know to continue our job and you know to demonstrate to the public that
what we are doing is in the public interest. Investigative journalism is
about holding powerful people and organizations to account and that's
what we are doing and I think that's why we became you know one of the
targets of this campaign. So I think the best response is to keep doing
what we are doing.
LL: I thank you for your time sir.
ANDRAS PETHO: Thank you for having me.
LL:
Andras Petho is a Hungarian investigative journalist and cofounder of
the website Direkt36.hu. We reached him in Budapest. We contacted the
Hungarian embassy in Ottawa to ask about press freedom in the country.
We were told the new Hungarian government has not yet entered office,
and were referred to earlier statements by the government on press
freedom. Last month, a spokesperson said he reserved the right to decide
who he regarded as a journalist because, in his view, some journalists
are just activists exercising a journalistic activity. The re-election
of Viktor Orbán was greeted with joy in right-wing circles and despair
by progressive and moderate Hungarians. Yet Hungary is not an anomaly.
When you look at the political landscape around the globe, right-wing
populists lead everywhere from the Philippines to Italy, from Russia to
the United States. In his speech to the French National Assembly in
Paris yesterday, Prime Minister Justin Trudeau spoke about economic
uncertainty, stagnant incomes — and the pernicious anxiety that can lead
to political polarization.
SOUNDCLIP
VOICE 1: [Sound: French-speaking language]
VOICE 1: [Sound: French-speaking language]
LL:
In too many countries, populism is spreading and democracy is eroding,
symptoms of a malaise that afflicts our integrated world, Trudeau said.
Daniel Ziblatt has studied the rise of anti-Democratic forces around the
globe. He is a professor of government at Harvard, and co-author with
Steven Levitsky of the new book, How Democracies Die. We reached Daniel Ziblatt in Boston. Hello.
DANIEL ZIBLATT: Hey there, nice to talk to you.
LL: How has Viktor Orbán’s political philosophy changed since he entered politics?
DANIEL ZIBLATT:
Well he's a fascinating case because he's somebody who came on the
scene really in the dying days of the communist era in the early 1990s
as a liberal dissident and actually went to Oxford with a scholarship
from George Soros and started really as a liberal dissident, founded of a
political party in the mid-90s, sort of briefly became a Christian
Democrat sort of in the West European world, and then kept pushing
further and further to the right. He was briefly prime minister in the
late 1990s, voted out of office, and then when he came back in to office
in 2010 after the financial crisis he had pushed much further to the
right taking on many of the kind of ideological characteristics that we
see with him today.
LL: How do you identify politicians who do start out being not overtly authoritarian but become so over time?
DANIEL ZIBLATT:
You know it's a tricky issue. In our book how democracies die we
identify a litmus test a set of characteristics to kind of warning signs
of politicians before they come into office show clear anti-democratic
tendencies. So if they go after the media, if they accuse their rivals
of being enemies, if they condone violence, these sorts of things. In
many cases it's quite easy to in fact identify political views ahead of
time. In the case of Viktor Orbán it's a little trickier because he
began as a liberal. So our litmus test is not a perfect test, I mean it
doesn't identify everybody before they get into office.
LL: Those warning signs were very public with Viktor Orbán and yet he won the vote anyway. So how do you explain that?
DANIEL ZIBLATT:
Yes well once he's been in office clearly he's violating these
criteria. Yeah I know this is the grave dilemma of our era. You know
throughout the Cold War the way authoritarians came into power is
through military coups. Three quarters of democracies died during the
Cold War at the hands of men with guns. Since the collapse of communism
the way authoritarians come to power is through elections and so it's a
real dilemma. On the one hand there's certainly a mantle of legitimacy
when somebody comes to power elected by publics but then you know that
doesn't necessarily make them democratic if in turn once in office they
attack and go after Democratic institutions.
LL:
Right. But as I said he's winning anyway despite all of that. How does
his right-wing philosophy play into those kinds of authoritarian
populist movements we see rising around the globe?
DANIEL ZIBLATT:
One thing I should say is that the 2018 elections there's been
accusations by election observers of violations of basic procedures. So
that helped him win. Before the 2014 election, election districts
redrawn and gerrymandered in a way so that it made it easier for him to
retain office so these elections have not been entirely free and fair
and have been tilted in his favour so that's just one thing worth
saying. More broadly though to your point about how this feeds into the
kind of global trends that we're seeing, I mean one of the interesting
things about Orbán as well is that he's very explicitly articulated a
vision of what he calls illiberal democracy. 2014 he gave a speech in
front of a group of students in Hungary in which he said “to be a
democracy does not necessarily mean you have to be a liberal democracy.”
And so he's tried to carve out a niche for himself and his regime type
that's been emulated in Poland, to some degree in Czech Republic, and
other parts of the world where the features of democracy are embraced,
namely the will of the people, the majority, but other features of
democracy, namely respect for pluralism, respect for diverse views,
respect for civil society, rights for minorities, these have been not
emphasized to the same degree. So he's carving out a niche, and this
suggests a kind of new set of challenges for the system.
LL: So is the world undergoing a democracy recession?
DANIEL ZIBLATT:
Well it's interesting my co-author Steve Levitsky wrote an article
years ago called The Myth of Democratic recession and I think he still
stands by that. And that's based on very careful research. If we look
you know certainly democracies are more challenged today than they have
been in the media post-Cold War era when democracy was the only game in
town. But according to you know various organizations, Freedom House,
different organizations that count the number of democracies in the
world, the number of democracies in the world you know exploded after
the early 1990s, continue to rise, and then in the mid-2000s basically
began to flat line; meaning some democracies are dying, some democracies
are coming to existence and enduring, but we’re certainly not in an era
where democracy is growing around the world. I should say however that
the election of Donald Trump in the United States has maybe changed this
to some degree. You know the United States and other Western countries
as well have often been advocates of democracy around the world since
the 1970s. And the Trump administration is pretty indifferent to this.
And so you know the international environment certainly has changed. I
think going forward it's certainly clear that we really run the risk of
Democratic recession.
LL: Tell me about how that affects your own country then, the United States.
DANIEL ZIBLATT:
You know we have similar dynamics that work. The U.S. is certainly a
much older democracy than many of the countries that have faced similar
threats of Turkey, Hungary, Poland, Philippines, the countries you
mentioned at the outset, so there's a lot more room for confidence that
there's avenues for the opposition to organize and to win elections. But
certainly the U.S. is suddenly facing and many people view that the
current administration is using a lot of the same strategies that Viktor
Orbán has used while in office; trying to capture the referees the law
enforcement institutions of the state, sidelining being very critical of
opposition media, and potentially attempting to kind of tilt the
playing field through electoral reforms. There's been some talks of that
haven’t gone very far. Steve Bannon, a former Trump adviser, regards
Viktor Orbán as a great hero. He's been quoted as saying he's a great
hero. So you know there are these links. Again I think American
democracy is much more stable, much older, so you know I don't think
tyrannies around the corner. But all of this has made Americans, I think
it should, make Americans more alert and realize they can't take
democracy for granted.
LL:
But in the United States that you would have a man like Henry Ford who
was a well-known anti Semite multimillionaire who toyed with the idea of
running for president and that he existed but he didn't win elected
office, how have American politics changed since those days to make
things riskier now in your view?
DANIEL ZIBLATT:
Yeah there's a tendency and a mistaken tendency to think that there was
some golden age of American democracy now we've abandoned that. The
truth of the matter is there have always been figures on the political
landscape; Henry Ford you mention, Joe McCarthy, Huey Long who was
governor of Louisiana who had clear authoritarian tendencies, George
Wallace who was a segregationist governor from the south who sounded
very much like Donald Trump on the campaign trail. These figures though
you know were very popular. Public opinion polls showed them sort of
garnering around 35 per cent support throughout the 20th century. But
these guys all stayed very far from office. We never had one of these
figures at the top of a major political party. And what changed we argue
in our book is essentially part of it is how we select our presidential
candidates has changed. You know the shift to a primary based system
where before the general election voters select their own party's
candidates has made it easier, has lowered the threshold for demagogues
to get into the top position, and that reform came in the early 70s. You
know of course the U.S. has continued to withstand… you know there
haven't been demagogues leading party until 2016 so something really
changed in 2016. And I think there are lots of factors that go into this
but a big part of the story has to do with the inability of Republican
Party establishment leaders to distance themselves from candidate Trump.
And you know many have essentially although despising him and not
liking him, including Republican voters; one out of four Republican
voters in the presidential election thought that Donald Trump was not
fit to serve as president yet they still voted. So something has really
changed.
LL: I want to play you a bit of President Trump's speech at the CPAC convention in Washington in February 2017.
SOUNDCLIP
VOICE 1: Never underestimate the people. Never. I don't think it will ever happen again. And I want you all to know that we are fighting the fake news. It's fake — phony, fake. [Applause.] A few days ago, I called the fake news “the enemy of the people” — and they are. They are the enemy of the people.
VOICE 1: Never underestimate the people. Never. I don't think it will ever happen again. And I want you all to know that we are fighting the fake news. It's fake — phony, fake. [Applause.] A few days ago, I called the fake news “the enemy of the people” — and they are. They are the enemy of the people.
LL: What does it mean for democracy when a leader starts calling parts of society, in this case the media, the enemy of the people?
DANIEL ZIBLATT:
It's frightening. You know especially in the United States a very old
democracy where this is really entirely unprecedented. You know going
back…You know a lot of people say that's just words, this is just hot
rhetoric. You know similarly when President Trump and candidate Trump
said you know there's election fraud is rampant in the United States,
elections are totally rigged, there’s no empirical basis for this among
my political scientist colleagues who studied this. So this is just
rhetoric some people might say. But we make the case in our book you
know that really words do matter because if you look at public opinion
among Republicans attitudes towards the press and attitudes towards
elections they've transformed in the last two years precisely as
candidate and president Trump has used these words. And so you know
significant percentages of Americans or of Republicans now think that
elections are rigged when in fact there's no evidence of this. And this
comes in large part from somebody in a powerful position like President
Trump saying that elections are rigged, similarly when somebody says the
media are the enemy of the people, the media are just making up
stories, significant portions according to Pew surveys show that
significant portions of Republicans now you know we're talking 40, 50
per cent of Republicans say that the media are making up stories about
President Trump. And so if have large segments of the population in any
democracy basically accepting these two key critical pillars of
democracy media and elections are basically illegitimate it's hard to
imagine sustaining a democracy in that context. So that makes us very
wary.
LL:
And Trump and Prime Minister Viktor Orbán have something in common in
targeting the press. Why do they want to target the press?
DANIEL ZIBLATT:
Yeah. You know a lot of people talk about a kind of authoritarian
playbook. There is no authoritarian playbook as far as I know. But
what's certainly true is that people are you know they're emulating each
other but I think when you have a political leader in any part of the
world who's not fully committed to democratic norms, norms are a kind of
form of constraint instead of unwritten rules, not committed to
democratic norms. When confronting people who are critical of them it's
hard to contain yourself. It's certainly tempting to try to tilt the
playing field, to go after the opposition, to try to capture the
referees of the political system. The problem is that those tactics are
exactly the thing that lead to a kind of escalating politics that
ultimately lead to a slow democratic decay.
LL:
You propose a solution in your book to those who might be concerned
particularly with what's happening in the United States to try to
prevent a deficit and democracy there. Can you briefly tell me what you
are suggesting?
DANIEL ZIBLATT:
Yes in the last chapter of our book we proposed a set of solutions. We
begin by diagnosing the problems and then we think underlying many of
our problems in the United States and in other countries as well facing
similar challenges is exactly as Prime Minister Trudeau mentioned high
levels of polarization. The sources of polarization in different
countries vary, but the root causes after a polarization each side views
each other as. And so we proposed a set of ideas for how to address
polarization. Some of these include you know the Republican Party itself
needs to be transformed. The Republican Party is a kind of highly
homogeneous political party, continues to be a very diverse multi-ethnic
American society, that's one thing. Second point is you know what
Democratic Party politicians and voters do. And we argued that they need
to resist the temptation to fight like Republicans. There's a lot of
talk among Democrats you know we need to emulate the strategies
Republicans in order to prevent being taken advantage of. We argue in
our book that’s really the mistaken strategy that you know in certain
conditions certainly necessary to fight hard, but we think Democrats and
all citizens of politicians need to fight in ways that reinforce
democratic norms rather than undermining.
LL:
We've got about 30 seconds left. Given the polarization in the United
States right now, how much confidence do you have that those gaps can be
bridged in the name of reviving democracy?
DANIEL ZIBLATT:
Yeah I mean again I think you know we began this conversation talking
about Hungary and I think the United States is certainly a much stronger
position. I mean there are these kind of echoes. The U.S. you know has a
robust civil society, a robust Democratic Party opposition, and so I
think if people begin to learn that much more is at stake, you know,
that there's a lot to potentially lose, then you know we only hope and
we encourage and that's one of the purposes of writing the book is to
show that you know we can't take democracy for granted. It's necessary
for citizens. But certainly a lot hinges on elections.
LL: We will leave it there. Thank you very much, Daniel Ziblatt.
DANIEL ZIBLATT: Yeah, thank you very much.
LL: Daniel Ziblatt is the co-author, along with Steven Levitsky, of the new book, How Democracies Die.
We reached him in Newton, Massachusetts. That's our program for today.
Stay tuned to Radio One for q. Guest host Ali Hassan speaks with
Canadian actor Cynthia Dale about her new role in the musical, Fun Home.
She also discusses her long run on Street Legal, a show that's getting
ready for a TV reboot. I can't wait. Years ago I was an extra on that
show. If you look at the past archive you can see me in the background
there. And remember you can always take The Current
with you to go on the CBC Radio app. Use it to browse through past
episodes of our show, search for stories you missed or hear the day's
top stories right from your smartphone or tablet. It's free from the App
Store or Google Play. We opened the program today talking about the
influence hate speech online may have had on Alexandre Bissonnette, the
convicted murderer who killed six people at a Quebec City mosque last
year. Aymen Derbali survived the attack, but just barely, and he
testified earlier this week at Alexandre Bissonnette's sentence hearing.
We'll leave you with an excerpt from The Current's
documentary: It was a Sunday. This is Aymen Derbali describing the
attack to producer Susana Ferreira. I'm Laura Lynch, sitting in for Anna
Maria Tremonti. Thanks for listening to The Current.
Hungary's PM wants a 1-party nation state, opposition MP says
Prime Minister Victor Orban's landslide re-election win puts Hungary at odds with the European Union
Comments
Bob Farley
The world rose to Hungary's
plight in 1956 and allowed them to escape from a brutal dictatorship.
And now its come to this. Thanks for nothing, dude.
David Amos
@Bob Farley This is just
corporate spin against a very popular politician in his homeland. I
don't judge him nor should anyone in Canada, only the people who have
the decision to vote for him or not should.
However how Viktor Orban handled the IMF and Monsanto years ago caused me to have instant respect for him. He has a fan in me.
However how Viktor Orban handled the IMF and Monsanto years ago caused me to have instant respect for him. He has a fan in me.
Ignatieff says Hungary's PM 'hijacked' his university to settle score with billionaire George Soros
'We've been hijacked:' Ignatieff says Hungary's PM targeted his university to settle a score with billionaire
Part 1: Syria: Russia, Michael Ignatieff, United Airlines follow-up
Michael Ignatieff
JD:
Michael Ignatieff left Canadian politics long ago. But now, he's at the
centre of one of Hungary's most contentious political fights.
Mr. Ignatieff is now the President of the Central European University in Budapest. Hungary's Prime Minister Viktor Orbán has passed legislation that threatens to shut it down. He says he's combatting fraud and foreign influence. But he's been met with thousands of people protesting in the streets.
Mr. Ignatieff calls the law an attack on academic freedom. And he's appealing to the outside world for help.
We reached Michael Ignatieff in Budapest.
Mr. Ignatieff is now the President of the Central European University in Budapest. Hungary's Prime Minister Viktor Orbán has passed legislation that threatens to shut it down. He says he's combatting fraud and foreign influence. But he's been met with thousands of people protesting in the streets.
Mr. Ignatieff calls the law an attack on academic freedom. And he's appealing to the outside world for help.
We reached Michael Ignatieff in Budapest.
CO: Michael Ignatieff, what does legislation in Hungary mean for the future of your school?
MICHAEL IGNATIEFF:
Carol, I think it would shut us down. We've been here for 25 years.
We're a graduate institution that issues masters and doctoral degrees
that are accredited in the United States and the government is basically
saying you can't issue those degrees and if you're going to stay here
you have to be pursuant to some bilateral agreement between the federal
government of the United States and Hungary. And we won't sign anything
that compromises our academic freedom. And so we've been resisting very
very sharply. And I think it's awakened a chord in Hungary simply
because we're one of the few remaining truly free institutions in the
country. And that's why we end up getting you know, something like
70,000 people in the street chanting in support of academic freedom. Who
knew?
You know, it's been a, Carol, it's been a very moving and emotional time for us. We haven't started those demonstrations, we don't have any part in them, but boy when you're in a university and someone's parading out your window saying you know “Free universities, free country”, it's pretty pretty strong stuff.
You know, it's been a, Carol, it's been a very moving and emotional time for us. We haven't started those demonstrations, we don't have any part in them, but boy when you're in a university and someone's parading out your window saying you know “Free universities, free country”, it's pretty pretty strong stuff.
CO:
Prime Minister Orbán says this is broad legislation that he needs to
crack down on fraud. Do you think your university has been targeted?
ME:
Well the fraud stuff is particularly outrageous. You know, we're proud
of the fact that we're one of the very best universities in the region,
one of the best in Europe. You know why is it happening? You'd have to
ask the prime minister. He's got an agenda.
CO: But you think your university has been targeted?
ME:
Oh I think there's no question it's been targeted. I could give you
chapter and verse about this. This legislation actually has only one
institution that it could possibly apply to. And that's us. I think he
just is worried that we are a threat to him. In fact we're not any kind
of threat to him. We're actually a university, we get up every morning
and do those thrilling things like medieval history and analytical
philosophy. You know, stuff they do at the U of T or Université
d’Ottawa.
But he construes this as being some kind of threat to his regime. It never is never will be. But none of us here is going to be pushed around, and because we're private and independent and endowed, we can fight back.
But he construes this as being some kind of threat to his regime. It never is never will be. But none of us here is going to be pushed around, and because we're private and independent and endowed, we can fight back.
CO: What do you mean when you talk about Prime Minister Orbán ‘s agenda?
ME:
Well Carol, I mean I honestly feel we've been hijacked. That is, the
government wants to get the attention of Washington. And so they've
taken an American institution hostage as if to say you know “Hey pay
attention to us. We want a meeting in the Rose Garden. We want this kind
of attention. We can't seem to get otherwise.” So it's a strange
business. I think there's another element to this which is apparent. You
know Mr. Orbán received a scholarship from the founder of this
university, Mr. Soros in 1989. And I think there's some weird
uncontrollable father son dynamic here that I actually don't understand,
don't care about. I think he thinks he can take a Soros institution
hostage but we’re not actually a Soros institution in the sense that I
don't answer to Mr. Soros, I answer to trustees and it's an independent
institution.
CO:
Mr. Soros, he's the founder of the university. He endows the
university. So is it so off the mark that by Mr. Orbán would see an
attack on this university as an attack on George Soros?
ME:
Oh sure. I mean I see that. But if this is about academic freedom, then
Academic Freedom cuts both ways. It's academic freedom in respect of
governments, but it's also academic freedom in respect of founders. I
mean I got you know the chancellor, vice-chancellor of Oxford University
and the chancellor of Berkeley, and ex-president of Stanford on my
board. You know, they're the people I answer to; they're the people who
hired me. And this man, let it just be entered in the record, you know,
is a Holocaust survivor, unbelievably generous towards Hungary over 30
years. You know it makes my blood boil. I don't answer to the guy, but
he's done more for this country than anybody I can think of.
CO:
But there is still a lot of support for Viktor Orbán, maybe outside of
Budapest more, but that he is still a popular politician. His objective
as he stated very clearly, is he does not like liberal democracies. He
is trying to transform Hungary into a populist nationalist entity. He's
got that vision, and does it appear that your university is in the way
of that?
ME:
I think there's no doubt about that. He thinks there's some electoral
gain in taking a run at us. But I just think that taking a run at an
American institution is actually a strategic mistake. I think taking a
run at a free institution riles up Budapest. I think taking a run at
academic freedom triggers you know support from academic institutions
around the world. I don't, I just genuinely don't think he gambled on
that. I'm not going to comment on his agenda. Liberal, illiberal is not
my business. But you know, my only job is to defend this institution and
that's what we're doing.
CO:
Leaving aside your political adventures here in Canada, that career.
You have been a journalist, and author, you have written about the
Balkans, Eastern Europe for decades, and to some extent, have you become
a player in the story that you've been analyzing for years?
ME:
I don't think I'm a player. I mean I think I'm just I got caught in
something that is a lot bigger than me. But I’ll tell you Carol, you
know, I've been in and out of academic life all my life, but I think the
last three weeks have taught me more about academic freedom as a value
then than I ever dreamed. I mean, a lot of your listeners may think, oh
academic freedom that's a privilege that professors have. You know,
actually it has a much deeper connection to our democracy. Universities
are among the first self-governing institutions and a lot of our ideas
of democracy are connected to the idea of self-governing institutions.
And when you see an institution fight like I've seen this one fight, you
really discover a passion for self-government, self-rule, to be free of
government interference that's very powerful. And I'm not swept up in
it, I'm trying to lead it. But it's moved me a lot and deepened my
attachment to universities and you know, to the stuff that we do and I
think that's the thing I take away. I don't think I'm a player in the
search but I think the fact you were kind enough to say, I’ve thought
about this part of the world for a long time, I married into this part
of the world. I think that actually helps me get some kind of handle on
what's going on. But it's been an amazing adventure and it's not over
and I'm not out of the woods and I don't want to proclaim victory. We're
still in a really stubborn battle that could go on for some time and
frankly I need, I mean I shouldn't be using you airwaves to do this, but
I need all the support from Canada I can get.
CO: We will leave it there but we will be following this story. Mr. Ignatieff, thank you.
ME: Pleasure Carol.
CO: Good night.
JD:
Michael Ignatieff is the president of Hungary's Central European
University. We reached him in Budapest. And you can find more on this
story on our website cbc.ca/aih.
[Music: “United Breaks Guitars”]
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