David Raymond Amos@DavidRayAmos
Replying to @DavidRayAmos @alllibertynews and 49 others
Whereas CBC was supporting Noname Political Trolls and blocking
me before the writ is dropped I decided to keep what i said about the
Irving Clan to myself for awhile at least
Irving
Oil's refinery in Saint John is the largest in Canada with a capacity
to refine 320,000 barrels of oil per day. City politicians have
questioned whether its $5 million property tax bill is high enough given
much smaller refineries out west that pay more. The company says its
true tax bill is $6.1 million, counting refinery related marine
terminals, an amount higher than eastern Canadian averages. (CBC)
Irving Oil Ltd. gathered information on
property taxes paid by six western Canadian oil refineries, but then
excluded much of it from a presentation it made to a committee of MLAs
last week.
The information would have shown the company's
refinery in Saint John pays property tax at a rate well below the
national average had it been shared with lawmakers.
It's a point
Saint John Liberal MLA Gerry Lowe said he and other members of the
committee receiving the presentation should have noticed and asked about
but did not.
"We were more of a lay person trying to figure it out and we were just over powered," said Lowe.
"I didn't feel very good about that for damn sure."
Study's results presented
Irving
Oil executive Andrew Carson (right) and Graham Little appeared at a
legislature committee hearing into industrial property tax issues last
week. They told MLAs the company pays property taxes on its refinery
"above average in the market." (Ed Hunter/CBC)
Irving
Oil was one of a number of companies and business groups appearing
before the legislature's law amendments committee last week to argue against expanding property tax assessments on New Brunswick industries that would serve to raise their property tax bills.
In
a 33 minute appearance, Irving Oil executives Andrew Carson and Graham
Little presented the committee with results of a study the company
commissioned from the Altus Group detailing property taxes paid by
Canadian oil refineries in seven provinces.
The Altus Group is a leading national property tax and valuation consulting company.
The
presentation showed Altus had looked at property taxes levied on 14
Canadian refineries, but Irving Oil's presentation to MLAs gave detailed
results on only eight of those. Property tax information gathered on
the remaining six, all based in western Canada, was not fully
disclosed.
Carson
told MLAs Irving Oil pays $6.1 million on refinery related properties,
an amount he expressed as an annual charge of $19.25 per barrel for the
320,000 barrel per day facility.
That
he said was 20 per cent higher than $16 per barrel amount Altus
documented was being charged to the average of eight refineries
operating east of Manitoba.
"Our per barrel taxes paid are much
higher than our competition and above average in the market," said the
company's power point display that accompanied Carson's comments to the
committee.
Exclusion affected comparison
But the $16
per barrel average Irving Oil compared itself to was affected
significantly by the exclusion of the six western refineries.
The
130,000 barrel per day Co-Op oil refinery in Regina, Saskatchewan was
billed $4.9 million in property taxes this year. That's a "per barrel"
tax rate of $38, nearly double the rate Irving Oil pays on its refinery
in Saint John. It's a comparison Irving executives did not share with
MLAs at committee hearings last week. (CBC)
In
Saskatchewan, the Co-Op refinery in Regina pays a property tax equal to
$38 per barrel on its daily capacity, nearly double the rate Irving Oil
pays in Saint John.
In British Columbia, the Parkland refinery in Burnaby pays $68 per barrel — more than triple what is levied in New Brunswick.
The
remaining four western refineries excluded in the comparisons are in
Alberta and all pay tax bills at rates significantly higher than those
portrayed in the presentation to MLAs.
The largest of those four
is an Imperial Oil refinery outside Edmonton that was charged $8.8
million in property tax this year — the equivalent of $47 per barrel on
its 187,000 barrel per day capacity.
Just minutes from that
facility is a refinery complex operated by Suncor. It was billed $16.4
million for property taxes this year — the equivalent of $115 per
barrel on its capacity of 147,000 barrels per day.
Property tax below national average
Carson
did not respond to a request to ask a company representative about its
presentation. But had all refineries surveyed by the Altus Group been
compared to one another for MLAs, Irving Oil's rate of property tax
of $19.25 per barrel would have been shown to sit well below the
national average and in ninth place among the 14 facilities.
Lowe
says the information Irving Oil did share involved comparisons of
assessments, taxes, tax rates and taxes paid per barrel of oil processed
and was difficult enough to follow without trying to spot information
not being presented.
"I couldn't follow it. It was real confusing," said Lowe.
"They
did a great job. The presentation was there. It's what isn't there from
the other refineries I would love to be able to see."
Green
Party leader David Coon who also sat through the presentation said he
too failed to pick up on how information about western Canadian
refineries appeared in early sections of Irving Oil's presentation but
then disappeared when tax bills were compared in detail.
"The
reality of the committee is there are so few minutes to ask questions
you really have to focus on something in particular and follow it
through.
"I was focused on other things. I didn't catch the western ones (refineries) dropping out," he said.
More questions
Irving
Oil did make an argument to MLAs that western refineries operate in
different business environments than eastern refineries and cannot be
fairly compared. It suggested their proximity to oil supplies, access to
pipelines to transport product and other factors were advantages not
available in Eastern Canada.
"Any refinery's competitiveness and
resilience are a function of its position in its regional market, not
in Canada as a whole," said the company in its printed materials.
Saint
John Liberal MLA Gerry Lowe holds a paper copy of the presentation
Irving Oil made on property taxes to a legislature committee last week.
The document excluded six western Canadian refineries when comparing
"per barrel" property taxes. Including them would have shown Irving
Oil's facility pays property taxes at a rate below the national average. (Robert Jones/CBC)
Lowe said that may be the case but he would prefer all information be made available for MLAs to consider, without exclusions.
"There's questions now that I see I could ask," said Lowe.
Property
taxes on oil refineries in Canada represent only a sliver of their
operating costs and barely register in final product prices that reach
consumers.
In New Brunswick last month any $50 fill-up by a
motorist would have included only about two cents to pay for refinery
property taxes. It's a fraction of the $18.97 in fuel taxes, $21.47 in
crude oil costs and $9.54 in other refinery and dealer expenses and
profits hidden in that $50 charge.
297 Comments Commenting is now closed for this story.
David Raymond Amos Methinks
there is no need to remind the Irving Clan, Mr Higgs and all my critics
who certain members of my family were and who my brother in law's law
firm partner is N'esy Pas?
David Raymond Amos
Whereas
I follow the money Methinks it should obvious why I called this
publicly held company first thing this morning N'esy Pas?
Altus Group Limited is a leading provider of software, data solutions
and independent advisory services to the global commercial real estate
industry. Our businesses, Altus Analytics and Altus Expert Services,
reflect decades of experience, a range of expertise, and
technology-enabled capabilities. Our solutions empower clients to
analyze, gain insight and recognize value on their real estate
investments. Headquartered in Canada, we have approximately 2,500
employees around the world, with operations in North America, Europe and
Asia Pacific. Our clients include some of the world’s largest real
estate industry participants. Altus Group pays a quarterly dividend of
$0.15 per share and our shares are traded on the TSX under the symbol
AIF.`
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Raymond Amos:
I’m sure the company is shaking in their boots after thst phone call...
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: YUP I called Moncton and got a call back from Toronto just now I
told the dude to read my comments here and I will contact his boss
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Raymond Amos:
I’ll give them a call and inform them you are agile person who likes to
sue everyone under the unnsimoly becasise they breathed in our dorection
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Please do
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @David Raymond Amos: While you are talking to them why not ask them if our CPP invests in their company?
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Raymond Amos:
I’d you dislike what cpp is used for, become self employed and do not do
the optional payin recently made available as an option,
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Clearly you don't know who I am
David Raymond Amos Surprise Surprise Surprise
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Raymond Amos:
Mehtinks you have An awful lot of varying name David Amos accountd, nesy oss?
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: Methinks everybody knows why too many of my personal comments
are being blocked as I run for public office again So I obviously
switched accounts to the one I use for Hard Ball Politicking N'esy Pas?
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Raymond Amos:
Which violates the TOS.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny Horton: NOPE CBC killed the account long ago and after I took on their lawyers they gave it back to me
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Raymond Amos:
Multiple accounts violates the tos.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: NOPE most politicians have multiple accounts and many minions
supporting them as well Methinks its just like you as you support Mr
Higgs and his Irving cohorts and attack my politicking N'esy Pas?
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Raymond Amos:
I don’t support Higgs, I’m anti government, period,
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: Methinks everybody has your number and that you are obviously
pro Irving all the way down the line and Mr Higgs is their buddy N'esy
Pas?
Johnny
Jakobs What a joke? Irving gets their own tax appraisal done and plays gymnastics with the stars... and the MLAs didnt notice?
Time for another meeting and some follow up questions.
Were they under oath when they presented their report?
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny
Jakobs: Methinks Mr Higgs knows that the Irving Clan and their minions
know how to play the wicked game far better than our temporary MLAs
N'esy Pas?
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Raymond Amos:
David, it’s no different than you going around threatening employees you are calling their boss, and suing everyone,
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Pure D BS and it is also libel
Dave Corbin It's not in the public interest to know. This is New Brunswick remember, don't compare us.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Dave Corbin: Where is your pride in our Province?
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Raymond Amos:
I lost my pride in
The province ehen sll the citizens just shine the rich whopsy more than they ever will, aren’t paying enough,
I lost pride in the province,when the citizens stopped taking care of their own and depend on others to live up ther lifestyle,
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Cry me a river
David Raymond Amos
Content disabled
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: You whine in CBC all day long and criticize people who run for
public office in sincere effort to expose the public corruption yet do
not have the sand to put your own name on a ballot Correct?
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @David Raymond Amos: Why is it I was not to see my reply blocked?
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @David Raymond Amos: I forgot the word Surprised in the comment above
Johnny Horton Ahh yes, the usual,use charge the rich more and all our problems will go away crowd is out in force today,
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Johnny Horton:
I believe in a free society shred people are free to do what rhy want and mske what they want and to keep what they make.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Yea Right tell us another one
Pieter Vrugteveen
Reply to @David Raymond Amos: you've nothing productive to say.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Pieter Vrugteveen: So you say EH?
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Pieter
Vrugteveen: Did you read my all comments in the other article that they
are referring to? Trust that you can't because I have not blogged them
yet
Lou Bell I'm
sure the correct version , with the comparison including ALL 14
CANADIAN REFINERIES will be found in the Irving run papers ! NOT
!!!!!!!
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Lou Bell:
I think your property tax should be based on Vancouver rates. I think
you food prices should be based on what they pay in northern Canada,
I mean, apparently it’s only fair to compare the whole country and prices, no matter how big and diverse thst dountry is.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Lou Bell:
Ow yes and let’s not forget you should be paying gas prices based on bc and the North, being Canadian and all.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Lou Bell: Methinks the knickers of the Irving shill were in quite a knot today N'esy Pas?
Shawn Tabor This
is not really news, most folks know that this has been going on for
many, many years. Sad. How they try and justify for taxes that they
don’t pay. What’s more interesting is the humans that help them.
Backbones like Jellyfish. NB has made many humans rich on the backs of
the taxpayers. Many, many examples. Funny now, it has become a problem.
Easy fix, just raise taxes. Not to worry, it’s all Good. LOL. Pathetic
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Shawn Tabor: I wholeheartedly agree
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Shawn Tabor:
Yes we all know for decades homeowners have tried to game the system and
seek favours for their lots and their particular situation from
politicians.
Yes we all know for decades peole selling houses haven’t told WLLA THE ISSUES WITH THE HOUSE.
Fred Brewer
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Two wrongs don't make a right. Did your parents not teach you that?
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Fred Brewer:
They also told me not to criticize the actions of others when I’ve most
likely in the past done something similar, intentional or not.
David Raymond Amos Reply to @Johnny Horton: What is it you see when you look in the mirror?
Cam Randal The
Irving empire looks after the bottom line - more money in their
accounts. Why would anyone expect this monopoly to share the truth?
Remember the explosion at the refinery last year - the city/province
promised answers, but after a week or so of news, this story fell off
the radar and we can expect this tax presentation to slowly fade into
history without any consequences for the company's dishonesty.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Cam Randal: YUP
Dan Franklin Wait a second. Are you telling me that the Irving's were dishonest? Say it ain't so!
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Dan Franklin: Methinks Johnny Horton could say it but it wouldn't make it so N'esy Pas?
Dan Franklin Reply to @David Raymond Amos: I don't know what in the world you're talking about. Just remember, vodka isn't lunch.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Dan Franklin:
Just as dishonest as anyone selling s house has been.
David Raymond Amos
Content disabled
Reply to @Dan Franklin: Methinks you should read other folks comments before you insult them N'esy Pas?
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Dan Franklin: Obviously you have a new friend in Mr Horton
Fred Brewer
Reply to @Johnny Horton: So your point is that its ok to be dishonest because others are dishonest? Really?
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Fred Brewer:
No my point is dishonest people shouldn’t criticize other dishonest people.
Michael Davis They are friends with skippy
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Michael Davis: Methinks thats a good nickname for Mr Horton N'esy Pas?
Murray Brown Hold
on... The Irving's run this province and even elected the man as the
Premier, so they are essentially in power of everything and he's doing a
fine job of running the province like the Irving's run their company...
On the cheap.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Murray Brown: Methinks that is supposed to be a secret N'esy Pas?
Dusty Green Irvings
being shifty in order to avoid paying taxes? Noooo~ Unbelievable! When
have they every used greasy tactics in the past....
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Dusty Green: Methinks you jest just enough N'esy Pas?
Lou Bell @ Johnny Horton Ye must've been the " hatchet man " in human resources at " the Empire " I take it.
Dianne MacPherson
Reply to @Lou Bell:
OFF TOPIC, Mr. Bell !!!
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Dianne MacPherson: Methinks you don't that Bell is a woman N'esy Pas?
Dianne MacPherson Reply to @David Raymond Amos:
OMG.....I did not !!!
My sincere apologies for that.... but
not for the comment !!! LOL
Dianne MacPherson I don't have the time today to read through 225 (at this time) comments
before posting my own.
I only have one question.......
what is Gerry Lowe doing on this committee ......
no disrespect to Mr. Lowe intended.
I thought that committee work would be served by those
having some seniority in Politics !!!!!
Dianne MacPherson Reply to @Dianne MacPherson:
Who were the other Members ????
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Dianne MacPherson:
He must be a new member his name is not on the website member list for that dommittee.
Dianne MacPherson
Reply to @Johnny Horton:
But Mr. Lowe is the featured MLA in this article !!!
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Dianne MacPherson:
I think the reporter kind of messed up the wording, it implied thst Lowe
is on the committee when it says “and other committee members”. When
in fact, I think Lowe 2as there as The originator of he amendment and
not as a committee member.
Not sure though, it could be clearer.
Dianne MacPherson
Reply to @Johnny Horton:
If you read the article it's plain enough !!!
Read the quotes from Mr. Lowe; featured
at the bottom of the article and the caption/s
with the pics !!
Dianne MacPherson
Reply to @Dianne MacPherson:
Look under the heading..."Property tax below national average"
you'll find remarks from Lowe there....
and a real 'beauty' from David Coon !!!
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Dianne MacPherson: Methinks you missed the boat N'esy Pas?
Dianne MacPherson
Reply to @David Raymond Amos:
Ah....Friday the 13th !!!
Al Clark Methinks we need a scorecard to keep track of all the "daves"and their alternate logins, naysay paw??
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Al Clark:
Ahh but its all good, nothing to see here. I mean right from the horses mouth, politicians always do it.
At least we know if “Dave” ever did win, he’d fit right in with all the rest of em.
Lou Bell
Reply to @Al Clark: Says Marc ! We know you.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Al Clark: Methinks you thinks I should feel honoured by you stealing my expressions N'esy Pas?
Al Clark Reply to @Lou Bell: Yess lulu, if you say so often enough it must be true?
Al Clark
Reply to @David Raymond Amos: Methinks youthinks I am not openly mocking your ridiculous repetitions naysay paw?
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Al Clark: Methinks everybody already knows what I think of you N'esy Pas?
Al Clark Reply to @David Raymond Amos: welcome to the circus methinks you jest just not enough naysay paw? Checkay le docket!
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Al Clark: Methinks just in case your and your cop pals forgot the docket # in Federal Court is T-1557-15 N'esy Pas?
Darren
MacDonald
Reply to @David
Raymond Amos: "Methinks just in case your and your cop pals forgot the
docket # in Federal Court is T-1557-15 N'esy Pas?"
What does this mean in the Federal Court of Appeal Decisions? "The
deficiencies in Mr. Amos’ pleadings are so extensive such that amendment
could not cure them"
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Darren
MacDonald: Methinks your should have read it all by now Did you see
where they claim not to have jurisdiction over the wiretap tapes
Interesting N'esy Pas?
Al Clark Irv
said it was a myth a few days ago and now they've "proved" it. NEXT!!
LOL. Peasants should know better than to question their betters
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Al Clark:
Or better yet, don’t like being s oeasant, make something of yourself'.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Methinks you should take your own advice N'esy Pas?
Jason Inness Lying
or omitting data, facts, information to a legislative committee should
have the same weight as doing so in a court of law. They should be
charged with perjury.
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @Jason Inness:
If the legislature wants unbiased details reports they can do it
themselves, not like we don’t have tens of thousands of civil servings
in this province.
Jason Inness
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: They presented to the committee. Whether they were requested,
or they made the request to present, the information they provide, and
the answers to the questions posed, should be factual. Data should not
be omitted. What they provide in the case of information can influence
and impact public policy, which affects us all. That needs to be
considered in this.
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @Jason Inness:
And again if the legislature is thet concerned about facts, they csn use
the tens of thousands of civil sevenths we have to do their research
for them.
Like any employeee, of course the companies interests come first.
Anybody thet has ever worked or snyoe else has started some point
painted a rosier picture than actually existed,
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @Jason Inness:
Never so,d anything to anyone? I’m sure some details of the product or service were conveniently left out in your presentation,
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @Jason Inness:
I’m sure that nobody who ever got a ticket or warning, ever embellished
or left out dats ehen tslking to the police, layer and nudge to make
them look better and more appealing,
But sure go off on Irving for it.
Jason Inness
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: Sorry, if my employer asked me to lie to a legislative
committee, I would ask them to send someone else. You may think it
excusable to sell your honesty to a company, but I do not. They put it
into a presentation, chose to leave out data points that countered their
argument, gave a presentation that they knew was going to influence
public policy.
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @Jason Inness:
I never said it was oksy, I did however point out the hypocris and yo everyone in one way or another doe the same thing,
Two wrongs don’t mak a right. It singling out one side or one group doesn’t make a right either,
I still claim, that as a consultant, you st some point in some report to
earn your pay, left out some fact or didn’t preset s some angle.
Greg Smith
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Johnny, you are a shameless Irving shill, that's abundantly clear.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Greg Smith: Oh So True
Jason Inness
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: No. I have sold to people. I don't leave out the details.
Why? Because I want them to understand what they are getting, because
if they are displeased with the product or service, then I can kiss any
repeat business away. Also, this is not the first time Irving officials
have been caught lying to elected officials. Remember the night that
Saint John council voted them a tax break on the LNG property? They
said the deal was contingent on the tax break. Fact was that the deal
was already closed.
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @Jason Inness:
Wow. It would take you hours to sell a single thing, to list all its
pluses and minuses. Any issues anyone ever had with the item.
I’m sure your boss loved that.
David Raymond Amos Reply to @Johnny Horton: Methinks the Irving Clan and their buddy Mr Higgs love you about as much right now N'esy Pas?
Jason Inness Reply
to @Johnny Horton: I know you are trying to say "everyone" lies, so it
is OK for the Irving Oil reps to do so to a legislative committee.
Isn't that what is wrong with our society? One person is unethical, or
corrupt, so it is OK for everyone to be that way. Further, you can try
to put my behaviour up as an example, but I wasn't caught leaving out
data to a legislative committee, and I wasn't caught lying to city
council to get a tax break (the LNG debacle). It is not OK for the
Irving companies to do so. Period.
We continue to dodge around the things that these companies do, mainly
out of fear. It is about time that the Irvings get called out on some
of these things
Rod McLeod This
is why any report should never be taken at face value. The math in
presentations like this is correct but the formulas are are edited to
come up with the desired result. Also missing are recipients who can
understand what the report is presenting.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Rod McLeod:
And you of course have never omitted any facts to your boss. Ever,
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Need I say HMMMM?
Fred Brewer
Reply
to @Johnny Horton: With all due respect Johnny, it seems that every
time someone alleges wrongdoing by Irvings, you simply counter by
pointing to wrongdoings by others. Two wrongs do NOT make a right.
Wrongdoing by ordinary citizens should not be tolerated and neither
should wrongdoings by the Irvings.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Fred Brewer: Why is he do any respect?
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Fred Brewer:
Did I say it was oksy? No. I am just pointing out the talking out of
both sides of the face. They ire st the Irving’s, ehen peole do the
death thing
S every day of their lives.q
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Fred Brewer:
People in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones st others, don’t complain
about what others are doing, until you get your own house in order.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Fred Brewer:
Maybe instead of people sitting around complaining on a message board
thst will be gone in a few y3@4#, they could be more productive in
making the changes they do desire in sotyl
David Peters
Reply to @Johnny Horton:
No one is living in a glass house, and all empires are still cro ok ed.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Peters:
Yes they are. Most of the things they complain about here, they do s varietion of it themselves.q
David Peters
Reply to @Johnny Horton:
Playing by the rules that were set up long before we came along...can't
blame ppl for that. But, imo, it helps, and is important, to point out
how things have become distorted and how to make things better.
This is why, imo, it's better to try to correct the system than it is to
try to go after individuals who have obviously benefited from the
distorted mess it has become.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Peters:
Im sll for the Irving’s, or any corporation being taken down a peg or
ten. As soon as every citizen that games the system in one way or
another gets taken down s peg or two. No more lot variations. No more
calls to an mls thst you don’t like something or want something, no more
favours from government or businesses. No more 2hining until you get
your way on an issue, no more favouritism requests about your kids and
school sports etc.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Methinks desperate shills post desperate things N'esy Pas?
Johnny Horton Reply to @David Raymond Amos:
Methinks people enjoy their little perks they manipulate for themselves, yet despise others who also get them,
Lou Bell
Bet you won't see this revelation in Brunswick News ! Talk about controlling the press !!!
David Peters Reply to @Lou Bell:
It pays to control the media, when your running a rack et like this...
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Lou Bell:
Methinks everybody knows that goes without saying 1984 was a long time
ago and the Book was written long before that and no doubt old KC read
it when he was young N'esy Pas?
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Peters:
You are free to start your own media empire. You’ll probably do like
everyone else though, and just laugh the whole way to the bank when the
Irving’s Offer to buy you out,
David Peters
Reply to @Johnny Horton:
It's much easier to buy ppl off when you get million$ in corporate
welfare, seemingly at will. Is everyone entitled to that corporate
welfare $? If not, why can one group or individual get it over others?
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Peters:
We’ll build your empire up do that you to csn petition for Corporate
welfare. I mean it’s how the system works right or wrong, do like the
Irving’s did, get to the grind. Salve for decades get big and demand
your corporate welfare,
It’s not like they were given it day one of kc working his first job,
I know, you’ll do the typical internet thing and twist thst to me
defending corporate welfare. Which I am in no way doing, I’m simply
saying if you want thst corporate welfare, then do what sll ther other
people who got it did. Worked hard, got successful and got s big
corporation.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Johnny Horton:
And before you tell me that’s there’s nothing left to do, that’s what
they said before apple came along, or google. Or any other number of new
ventures, thst instead of competing with monopolies, forged new ground,
David Peters
Reply to @Johnny Horton:
"It’s not like they were given it day one of kc working his first job,"
How do you know how it all started? Bc, that's what they told you?
All empires are cro ok ed and should be simply outlawed...never mind the
rationalizing. Competition should be encouraged...in every sector.
That is why anti-competition laws are on the books. They need to be
enforced, though.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Peters:
No. Consumers need to regain their duty and instead of being entitled
and getting everything regulated, stop buying and go without products
and services they don’t like or agree with,
Lou Bell
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Off the backs of others , many times nefariously at best !
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Lou Bell:
May the strong survive and the weak vanish. Gotta love Darwinism.
David Raymond Amos Reply to @Johnny Horton: Methinks that is exactly the reason you are about to got "Poof" N'esy Pas?
Lou Bell
So
they presented the " good " ! But not the " bad and the ugly " ! What
more should we have expected from them ? About their Bermuda Holding
Company where they " launder " their business assets ?
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Lou Bell:
This about PROPERTY Taxes Methinks we have legions of our Tax Assessors
under Mr Higgs purview We do not need to hear from any overpaid
corporate consultants from out of province N'esy Pas?
David Raymond Amos Reply to @Lou Bell:
Hey Lou, ehen you went in s first date, did you give the date sll your facts or did you try and present your best presentation?
David Peters
Reply to @Lou Bell:
A complete audit of all corporate welfare handed out in the last 30 yrs
would be nice...how did it help the homeless/child poverty situation in
NB?
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Peters:
Yes right, let’s pin centuries of homelessness and child poverty on Irving handouts.
Lou Bell
Reply to @Johnny Horton: I didn't L I E if that's what you're inferring ! Boy, your self painted profile must be a beauty !!!!
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Lou Bell:
No you just left off your bad issues for a later time to be discovered,
David Raymond Amos
Content disabled Reply
to @Johnny Horton: Methinks a lot of folks are wondering if your Mother
knows the truth about the dude she raised and if so would she be proud
of you N'esy Pas?
Johnny Horton Maybe
instead of government spending millions to find out *** to charge every
more, then csn cut expenses and services. Making more services self
supporting,
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny Horton:
Methinks you think you know everything about everything N'esy Pas?
However
“Confucius said, "To know that we know what we know, and that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge.”
Johnny Horton Right Irving is evil for clewrcitting the forests! But it’s oksy citizens buy up more and more land in sprawling subdivisions.
The hypocrisy of people.
David Peters Reply to @Johnny Horton:
Put the areas affected by each practice side by side on a map of NB, and see the difference...you point is ridiculous.
David Raymond Amos
Content disabled
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Methinks you should know all about hypocrisy N'esy Pas?
David Peters Reply to @David Peters:
-your point is ridiculous-
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Peters:
So? Both have done extreme harm to the environment and habitat.
Lou Bell Reply to @Johnny Horton: The hypocrisy of you .
David Peters Reply to @Johnny Horton:
They are not comparable, obviously.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Peters:
I disagree. In fact s cler cit first still provides more environment
benefits, water runoff protection, than a suburb with paved streets and
driveways thst has been flattened.
Archie Levesque
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: A clear cut provides water run-off protection? And environment
benefits too? How so? By taking a diverse forest and replacing with a
mono-culture type of Empire tree? Get up from behind your desk at Irving
HQ and join the real world
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Archie Levesque:
I said it provides more than s psved over subdivision, which it does. I
never said it provides what it used to before clear cutting, then again
the subdivision also doesn’t provide what it used to before being paved
over,
David Peters
Reply to @Johnny Horton:
Paving runoff issues are solved by storm sewer drainage.
The damage done to nature by clear-cutting and spraying are too numerous
to go into...but, maybe, it's time we did take the time to look into
these obviously destructive practices.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Peters:
Paved over was just an expression.
There’s no environment or habitat left when a subdivision goes up. At
least with a clear cut forest there is a chsce nature will retire over
time, not so much in the newly built concrete jungle.
I’m not saying either is right. But to trash corporations ehen peole are
aftsully dojg even more harm eith ev34 expanding subdivisions so they
can ow; land is hypocritical.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Lou Bell: Methinks he should know all about hypocrisy N'esy Pas?
Brian Robertson So what?
The only fair way to compare taxation is as a whole.
That includes not only property taxes and corporate tax rates, but also payroll taxes.
Also to be considered is what government incentives and subsidies are in place.
One can cherry pick just one aspect of taxation to make either argument
that taxes are higher or lower in New Brunswick when compared to other
Provinces.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Brian Robertson:
Which the Irving’s kinda did with their $19.25 a barrel, At least the
direct tax part. Which is highest n east/central Canada, but not
distant west Canada.
Fred Brewer
Reply to @Johnny Horton: What is missing is the billions of dollars Ottawa gives as subsidies to oil and gas companies.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Fred Brewer:
What’s missing is the salaries paid, the cpp ei payments. Work safe psyments. And more indirect taxation.
David Peters
Reply to @Brian Robertson:
...and how does all the corporate welfare handed out over the years figure in?
...and how does the fact that we are dealing with a monopoly that,
effectively, uses the long arm of the law to thwart competition figure
in?
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Fred Brewer: Checkout the cheques NB Power write to the Irving Clan Thanks to the Alward government
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny Horton: You claimed to have no CPP
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Raymond Amos:
I also said I never worked for Irving what’s your point, we are discussing Irving, thst tid the news story,
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Peters:
Again what monopoly, there are several competitive gas station chains in NB.
Bernie Heather McIntyre
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: Yes there are and guess where they buy their gas from. Humm,
yeah the Irving refinery with their own grades made there.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Methinks you need to review your own comments N'esy Pas?
David Peters Reply to @Johnny Horton:
You must be kidding...but, I'll state the captain obvious, every gas
station you see, in NB, the fuel comes from only one refinery.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Peters:
I’ll be captain obvious, barrels of oil are priced globally.
Fred Brewer You have to ask this question: Who is struggling financially? Is it the Irvings or is it the city and the province?
As one of the richest families in Canada, we know its not the Irvings.
With current taxes at about 5 cents per barrel, there is nothing wrong
with raising the tax to 10 cents per barrel. Tax law is created by our
government and they can change it anytime they wish. Regardless of what
anyone says, an extra 5 cents per barrel, will not harm the refinery.
David Peters
Reply to @Fred Brewer:
When taxes go up on the refinery, who do you think is going to pay for that? The cash cow, driving public maybe?
Fred Brewer
Reply to @David
Peters: As pointed out previously, doubling the taxes on the refinery
results in a 0.0003 cent increase per liter at the pumps. No biggie.
David Peters
Reply to @Fred Brewer:
Yeah, right, no biggie. Taxes, as it is now, is almost half the pump price. No biggie.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @David Peters: Your point is?
David Peters
Reply to @David Raymond Amos:
Increasing taxes on the refinery is only going to increase the price at
the pump, which (pump prices) are already ridiculously and dangerously
high. Dangerous for the economy, that is.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Peters:
Other jurisdictions in the world have paid higher prices for decades. They sll seem to be surviving nicely in Europe etc,
David Peters
Reply to @Johnny Horton:
You're kidding right? You want to pay $6/litre? The only thing saving
us from that here is the little bit of free market there is south of the
border...and that's shrinking all the time.
Jared Henderson
Jared Henderson
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: yeah and about 3 european countries fit into NB not to mention
their Train system etc...your point is leaving out important info...do
you work for irving?
Johnny Horton
Reply to @: Jared Henderson
So dump the refinery and gas stations and build a train system. Blaming
other methods of transportation doesn’t change the fact the price Of gas
is low in cansda. A train system doesn’t heat homes or power offices.
Roy Kirk
Reply to @David
Peters: The refinery supplies drivers in many places, not just Saint
John. So New England drivers will end up paying, so what?
Jared Henderson
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: low for you maybe, you obviously make more than I do in a year
if you find it easy to manage...congratulations
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Jared Henderson:
It’s very easy to manage. I don’t drive. Been over s year since I was kat in a vehicle of any type, great way to save money.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @David
Peters: Property tax is not related to the price of gas The gas price is
regulated by other minions of Mr Higgs
David Raymond Amos
Content disabled
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Pure D BS
David Peters 19%
of all oil processed in Canada goes thru this refinery. I like an
environmental tax of 1$/barrel. It's outrageous to me that Irving Oil
presenters skewed the number by not including the more successful oil
refiners in the country & just cherry picked producers to suit their
narrative. Additionally, the 6.1 million $ tax bill they pay includes
other properties like port facilities, lubricant plants, pipelines, tank
farms, packaging plants, staging areas, etc., etc. I'm disappointed
with our panel of MLA's who did not seem prepared. I also think that
the committee chair was restricting time, where it should not have been
restricted . Shenagance is all I can say on such an important process,
with meaning for NB'ers. With so many tax dollars flowing thru this
facility, it would seem reasonable for Irving Oil to instill trust in
their business venture to the public and not fudge figures at they
obviously did.
June Arnott Reply
to @Dave Peters: It's the IRVING way! They care nothing about what they
do to the environment as long as they can keep making money and keep
most of it
David Raymond Amos Reply to @June Arnott: YUP
June Arnott The Irving promise, keep the money. The old man would be proud
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @June Arnott: Of that I have no doubt
Johnny Horton I don’t see why a refinery on the eat coast should be compsred to a refinery on the West coast,
It’s like comparing property in Labrador city to Vancouver,
Ridiculous,
David Raymond Amos Content disabled Reply
to @Johnny Horton: Methinks its rather comical that folks have been
wasting their precious time arguing you for many months after I proved
you were full of BS when you supported the Irving Clan's interests
within ambulance nonsense N'esy Pas?
June Arnott Say it ain't so! Irving not telling the FULL truth!!
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @June Arnott: Surprise Surprise Surprise
June Arnott This is what has been going on in NB for ever! IRVING is not for anyone but themselves.
They continue to NEVER pay their fair share! Imagine the money NB would
have were they to confront them. But everyone knows IRVING is the
government here, in every back room.
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @June Arnott:
Just like every citizen. In it for themselves. Controlling what
neighbours do thst disturbs them. Wanting everyone pay for their
expenses but themselves. Plus tons more,
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: Methinks just because you and your buddies in the Irving Clan
thinks that way it does not follow that everybody else does N'esy Pas?
Johnny
Horton Reply to @David Raymond Amos:
Right becsuse you have never done anything for personal gain that impacted someone else negatively,
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: Not to my knowledge and if I did so by mistake and became aware
of it I would always make amends ASAP. Methinks my following a very
simple rule that my Father the former Tax Supervisor of this province
taught all his children long ago and it always stood me in good stead
when I was in business. I may have made more money if I were deceptive
but I sleep well with a clear conscience to this very day. I suspect if
you had a conscience you could not make the same claim In a nutshell
"There Are No Degrees of Honesty" N'esy Pas?
Jason Inness Maybe
I am stupid, but I can't seem to get their math right. If they pay
$19.25 per barrel, that means they are producing 3,168,831 barrels per
year ($6.1 million divided by $19.25). Right?
That would mean that the refinery, with a thru-put of 320,000 barrels
per day, is only running at capacity for 10 days of the year?
(3,168,831 divided by 320,000 barrels per day)
Am I missing something from the article? Can one of the MLAs maybe ask the Irving reps how they get these numbers?
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Jason Inness:
The 19.25 is not just property tax, but all taxes and fees they pay on a barrel.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Jason
Inness: Forget the math Its a straw man argument Get back to fair share
of actual property taxes Methinks folks can't see the forest for the
trees even after the Irving Clan has mowed most of them down N'esy Pas?
Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Raymond Amos:
6.1 million is more than fair. Far more than almost everyone else in this province pays for a building,
Property taxes should be capped at fifty thousand per year.
Bernie Heather McIntyre
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Yaeh sure since the SJ hospital pays over twice what the refinery does.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Bernie Heather McIntyre:
First off I said ALMOST
SECONDLY. It’s hardly the same thing. The hospital is using tax money to pay taxes. Simply shuffling numbers around,
It’s like bragging you got twenty bucks from the tooth fairy, ehen you put it there yourself.
Fred Brewer
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Are you by any chance subsidizing your retirement income with these postings?
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Fred Brewer:
Nah I already hand pushed mowed the lawn today, don’t own a car so won’t goin nowhere,
Unfortunately I do use some power for the internet and harm the environment, but I do try for zero impact.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Methinks you have become a rather huge embarrassment to your buddies today N'esy Pas?
Bill Stroud Math is right. Typo on the number of days per year.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Bill Stroud: Who cares the argument is a moot point
Bill Stroud Let's
do some simple math. $6,100,000 tax per year divided by 356 days per
year divided by 320,000 barrels per day equals 5.2 cents tax per barrel.
Bernie Heather McIntyre Reply to @Bill Stroud: Well it seems the Irving's people think that we stupid Maritimer's can't do math
David Raymond Amos Reply to @Bernie Heather McIntyre: Its not rocket science
Johnny Horton Reply to @Bill Stroud:
The article clearly stipulates it’s not just property tax but sll taxes and fees per barrel.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny Horton: So what?
Frank Dee $/barrel seems to be a strange metric. Since when do we base property taxes on a business' output?
Are we also gonna start charging corner stores $/scratch-tickets-sold?
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Frank Dee: I
agree with the Irving Clan on that issue but paying their fair share of
property taxes is a whole other kettle of fish
Bernie
Heather McIntyre As
usual Irving's people lie again which is not new along with blackmail
comments. A little story . In 1980 the Saint John Shipyard had a new
contract when James Irving held a meeting saying you will be the highest
paid shipyard in Canada at $10.38 an hour. In 1981 I moved to Vancouver
B.C to work in a shipyard an made $14.97 an hour and I said to myself
wow I guess Irving lied I am still in Canada and look at the competition
since there were 7 shipyards in Vancouver although much smaller than
Saint John. So to get to my point the Irving's lie to N.Ber's and are
very competitive with the rest of Canada. If they weren't the Irving's
wouldn't have gotten so rich from a small % of Canadian's who live in
Atlantic Canada.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Bernie
Heather McIntyre: Methinks all the politician know about the hoedown I
had with the former General Counsel of Irving Ship Building in Federal
Court on January 11th, 2016 I know I duly informed Admiral Norman and
his lawyer long ago and everybody played dumb for years N'esy Pas?
David Peters Almost half the pump price is tax...nice.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @David Peters: Go figure
Geoffrey Estabrooks I
bet Higgs knows the tax situation between the West and Irving Oil and
he didn't say anything. After all he was CFO of Irving and should have
known. Shame on him!
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Geoffrey Estabrooks:
Yep ain’t allowed to have any in the past. Must be a fresh politician right out of a test tube.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Geoffrey Estabrooks: Methinks just like all other politicians Mr Higgs knows no shame N'esy Pas?
Roy Kirk 6.1
million dollars per year divided by 320,00 bbl per day results in
nonsense units. Divide it by 365 days per year to get a sensible number
-- a little more than 5 cents property tax per barrel of oil processed.
Oil that costs about 60 bucks per barrel. Surely the tax take could be
higher!
Witnesses should have been sworn to tell the whole truth.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Roy Kirk: "Witnesses should have been sworn to tell the whole truth."
Dream on
Paul Krumm It wasn't that they didn't notice, it was that they deliberately ignored.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Paul Krumm: YUP
Lorne Amos If
you don't like the 6 million in taxes they pay just shut it down and
put thousands of workers, plus related spin off industries, out of work.
Watch the bankrupt courts go crazy, but the Irving haters will be very
happy.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Lorne Amos:
Yes that’s my whole point. Posters act like Irving’s don’t pay
nsything, they pay more in one year for one building than almost all
NBers will pay in a lifetime in ALL taxes, income property, sales etc.
Evan Day
Reply to @Johnny Horton As they should, given what the property is worth. That's how it works.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Evan Day:
Which is wrong,
It was a system devised by middle class to enrich the middle class.
Nothing fair about it,
David Raymond Amos Reply to @Lorne Amos: Cry me a river
Matt Parks Reply
to @Johnny Horton: The Champlain Mall in Moncton pays a way higher
property tax than the refinery. So does the Regional Hospital in Saint
John....
Bernie Heather McIntyre
Reply to @Lorne Amos: I'm sure they would shut down the refinery. Not!!!
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @Bernie Heather McIntyre:
Why not shut it down? I me@; if you listen to people here they are rolling in money and don’t need it.
If I were them I’d shut it all down at the first boo of complaint,
Winston Smith
Reply to @Lorne Amos:
What a child like, uneducated thing to say.
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @Winston Smith:
Why is it chisldish? If you already have mod then enough money, why
bother running anything, not like you need the money or it will give you
anything else you don’t already have.
Winston Smith
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: It's called "Capitalism", Johnny. By definition, you can never
have enough. You share, along with Lorne Amos, a child like,
uneducated, lack of understanding of the world. Very difficult for me
to believe that am responding to an adult, living in the 21st century.
John Valcourt Would anyone expect anything else from Irving.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @John Valcourt:
I wouldn’t expect anything less from anyone who wants to keep their money they earn,
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @John Valcourt: I don't In fact I expected more
Buddy Best
Reply to @John
Valcourt: I keep hoping they wake up some day to revelations of what
they have become. Boot scum !! and mend their evil ways. Far too
optomistic I know.
Buddy Best
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Earned??????? Always the jokester.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Buddy Best: Methinks he is far worse than a mere jokester N'esy Pas?
Johnny Horton ROFL
you mean the MLAs are upset when someone does what they do sll the time - play with numbers and cherry picks facts.
Astounding!
Fred Brewer
Reply to @Johnny Horton: After reading your numerous pro-Irving posts, I have to ask this question: Where do you work Johnny?
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Fred Brewer:
I’m not pro Irving,
I’m pro, you make it, you should get to keep it. I’m rather shocked
posters don’t think they (the posters) earn should be theirs to be
honest,
Fred Brewer
Reply to @Johnny Horton: I see you ducked the question. Where do you work Johnny?
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @Fred Brewer:
Retired. No plum government or corporate pension. Did my own earning and saving. Won’t be a burden on society,
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @Johnny Horton:
Most of my life was self employed. Which mesnt no cpp back in those days for self employed. So I’m on my own.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Fred Brewer: It ain't rocket science
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: Most of my life was self employed and everybody knows there was
always CPP for the self employed In fact I am collecting it in my old
age much to the chagrin of the CRA dudes who cancelled my SIN
Linda
Christie Hazlett If
MLA's are not intelligent enough to decipher Irving presentations then
it is their responsibility to the New Brunswick people to have a tax
lawyer present at the presentations
Gil Murray
Reply to @Linda
Christie Hazlett: So it does not bother you that a private sector
company withheld data from a government committee in order to mislead? I
am not sure what you hope to get from a tax lawyer but apparently you
have lots of money if you are going to lawyer up at every presentation
you see.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Gil Murray:
Governments mislead citizens all the time, what’s the difference?
Rosco Holt
Reply to @Johnny Horton:
Two wrongs don't make a right...
Why is it ok in either scenario?
Linda
Christie Hazlett
Reply to @Gil Murray:
Irving has been beating Saint John for years. Don't they ever learn.
You can't justify stupidity. Get a professional if you don't know the
job. It would save you the money you are worried about in the end.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Linda Christie Hazlett:
Yes man, that six million they pay now, boy they sure showed Saint John.
That’s sarcasm in case you missed it. They aren’t doing a very good job when they lose six million. Shear.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Linda Christie Hazlett: I wholeheartedly agree
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Rosco holt: I concur
Buddy Best
Reply to @Linda
Christie Hazlett: Irving messing with the figures? say it isn't so!!!
Would they sink that low? Of course....they have been doing it since
pencils were invented with erasers. Bottom feeders.
Ben Haroldson The answer to the deficit is higher property, and income tax for large, billionaire companies.
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @Ben Haroldson:
The answer to any situation ehen expenses exceed revenue, is to cut expenses.
Rosco Holt
Reply to @Johnny Horton:
Cut subs and sweet deals would do allot to reign in expanses.
Fred Brewer
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: The Irvings are one of the richest families in North America. I
don't think their expenses exceed their revenues. What is your point?
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @Fred Brewer:
My point was answering the post which was about government just cheering more tees to mske more money, keep up.q
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Ben Haroldson: Are you still making fun of me?
Johnny
Horton
Reply to @Davis:
Yes David, you should rush off to court and sue Ben, or st least call his boss in him,
What are you, like ten years old.and a spoiled brat, I know you aren’t, but you certainly act it.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: Who is Davis? Methinks you are acting just like the missing in
action SANB/GNB dude Marc Martin N'esy Pas?
David Raymond Amos Reply to @Fred Brewer: Methinks you must have figured out what I am saying about Horton is true by now N'esy Pas?
Ken Dwight I'm surprised they pay any tax at all. We know they avoid revenue tax by locating their corporate headquarters in Bermuda.
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Ken Dwight:
Which isn’t illegal.
Rosco Holt
Reply to @Johnny Horton:
Which isn’t illegal. Yet..
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Rosco holt:
It will always be legal. As it should be,
We live in a free world.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Yea Right Free for whom?
Alison Jackson
Reply to @Johnny Horton:
Lol
No no no no....Irving takes raw materials from NB which doesn't belong
to them it belongs to the citizens of NB. They make products out of
these things and the tax they should be paying goes to a shelter that KC
set up in 1972 to avoid taxes. it's estimated they owe us in the
vicinity of $42 Billion.
You are OK with that huh?
Johnny Horton
Reply to @Alison Jackson:
Yea... whatever... the hypocrisy is astounding...
This coming from a scoring thst “thinks” they are buying land and
property, funny how you get to take the land and do with it what you
want, put s building on it, sell it, whatever. But others cannot,
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Ken Dwight: Its property tax they are arguing not Income tax
Buddy Best
Reply to @Ken Dwight: As you probably already figure outr they don't pay willingly or near enough.
Buddy Best
Reply to @Johnny Horton: But it should be illegal on a level playing field.
Buddy Best
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: Free World? Dream on little broom stick cowboy. It is only free
if you can afford to buy it and it ain't cheap.
David Raymond Amos
Reply to @Johnny
Horton: Methinks dudes like you and the Irving Clan live by the creed
that everything is legal as long as you don't get caught N'esy Pas?
Saint
John Harbour MLA Gerry Lowe speaks with Andy Carson from Irving Oil at
the second day of hearings on a proposal to make heavy industry pay more
property tax. (Jacques Poitras/CBC)
Corporations and business groups
continued their attack Thursday on a proposal to extend property
assessments and taxes to cover their machinery and equipment.
Irving
Oil, which operates the largest refinery in Canada in Saint John,
blitzed members of a legislative committee with a series of charts and
tables designed to show them it's a myth that the company gets off easy
paying taxes.
Irving executive Andrew Carson said the company
has "the highest tax bill of any refinery outside Alberta" and is facing
steep taxes on a number of fronts.
"New
Brunswick is not a low-cost jurisdiction," Carson said. "We pay fairly
high corporate income taxes, we have high personal income taxes, we have
fairly high WorkSafe New Brunswick rates and we now have a fairly high
carbon tax."
The legislature's law amendments committee is
studying a motion by Saint John Harbour MLA Gerry Lowe to expand the
assessment base and end or reduce exemptions.
Motion not binding
The
plan already appears doomed. If passed by the full legislature, the
motion is not binding on the Progressive Conservative government.
And
Finance Minister Ernie Steeves declared yesterday that he has already
made up his mind to oppose the measure. He said it would apply property
taxes to farmers' tractors and ovens in pizzerias.
Charline McCoy and Miramichi Mayor Adam Lordon spoke on behalf of the Cities of New Brunswick Association.
Miramichi Mayor Adam Lordon responded to that claim during his appearance at the committee Thursday.
"That
is not the case," Lordon said on behalf of the Cities of New Brunswick
Association. "That is not what we're advocating for. I always think it's
important to have a debate on the facts rather than throwing
misinformation into the mix as well."
Meanwhile, Saint John Mayor Don Darling pushed back at suggestions that floating the idea is anti-industry or anti-business.
He
said it stems from a realization that the municipal tax structure
hasn't changed since the Equal Opportunity reforms in the 1960s, when
cities weren't playing as large a role in the economy.
"The legislation we're dealing with is decades and decades old," he told reporters.
At
the hearing, Darling repeated his call that the province hand over its
portion of property tax revenue in the city to the municipality and
eventually give it the power to tax industry directly.
Lower tax burden
Lowe's motion was inspired by a report prepared for Saint John city council in 2017 that examined taxing machinery and equipment.
The
rookie MLA and former city councillor says the revenue would allow the
city to lower the tax burden on residents, which might help slow the
migration of city residents to neighbouring municipalities.
Irving
Oil and the New Brunswick government squabbled for years over whether
the company should get a property tax exemption for its storage tanks on
the outskirts of Saint John. The exemption finally went into effect in
1980 and has stayed put. (CBC)
He has repeatedly cited the 800-acre Irving refinery as a potential source of new property tax revenue.
On Wednesday, Green Party Leader David Coon brought up a supposedly temporary 1980 law to exempt Irving's oil storage tanks from provincial property taxes, a measure still in place almost four decades later.
Carson
said Thursday the exemption applies to only 10 per cent of the
company's tanks at the refinery and its nearby Canaport facility.
"So
the balance of our tanks [are] fully assessed, fully taxed municipally,
provincially," he said. "They're not treated in a different way."
Carson
urged the committee to take into account the company's other
contributions to Saint John, including the property tax it pays on its
other properties and its involvement in the community.
For the
most part, Carson avoided being drawn into discussion about the Irving
family's wealth. Lowe asked him about corporate profits and whether the
refinery makes "good money" from all the oil-based products it sells.
But Carson avoided being pinned down.
"It
would vary through the year, in all honesty," he replied. "There are
generally times in the year when certain products are in higher demand."
Later
in the morning, Coon challenged the refrain from various business
groups about New Brunswick's high tax burden putting new investment in
the province at risk.
'Unlikely to invest'
When Sheri
Somerville of the Atlantic Chamber of Commerce said businesses in the
province are already overtaxed, Coon pointed to a 2016 Conference Board
of Canada report that said New Brunswick had the second-lowest corporate
tax burden in the country.
She said there have been new costs
since then, including the federal carbon tax, that makes business owners
"uneasy" and unlikely to invest.
"Would you not agree that if
we have a sub-standard health-care system, that would be a barrier to
new investment, to attracting business to New Brunswick? Or if we have a
substandard education system or, God forbid, both?"
Somerville answered by calling for a broader tax review.
"There is no one silver-bullet solution that we can apply," she said.
Lordon also called for a broad tax review, even though the eight cities he was representing aren't opposed to Lowe's proposal.
"We're
in support of a perhaps higher level of taxation on equipment and
machinery, but we don't think that is enough," he said. "It has to be
about more than that. It's got to be a lot broader."
Lordon said
cities are playing a greater role in the province, with 91 per cent of
New Brunswickers living within 50 kilometres of a city but most of them
not contributing through taxes to the cost of city services they use.
He said cities need taxation powers to match their growing role as "regional hubs."
Lowe's
proposal "would be one very small piece of one very large and complex
puzzle," Lordon said.
"This is not going to create the broad systemic
change that we desperately need in this province.
Looking at only one
piece in any way is not going to be enough."
88 Comments that CBC did not block Whereas CBC wss supporting the Noname Political Trolls and blocking me before the writ is dropped I decided to keep what i said about the Irving Clan to myself for awhile at least Nobody reads my blogs anyway Correct? Commenting is now closed for this story.
David Amos Welcome to the Circus
David Amos Methinks
some folks will be astounded by the fact that I agree with the Irving
Clan on this issue However everybody knows they don't pay their fair
share of property taxes Hence the title of this article incredibly funny
N'esy Pas?
David Amos Enjoy your weekend folks no doubt Mr Higgs won't N'esy Pas?
Danny Devo There is always some great reason why they don;t pay proper taxes. What a sh&#-show this is.
David Amos
Reply to @Danny Devo: Of course
Lou Bell
Guess
it's either the Con Irving option , or the SANB / Liberal option of
spending waste on their own francophone / corporate contributors option.
e.g Atcon / Franco phonie Games , etc.
The
130,000 barrel per day Co-Op oil refinery in Regina, Saskatchewan was
billed $4.9 million in property taxes this year. That's a "per barrel"
tax rate of $38, nearly double the rate Irving Oil pays on its refinery
in Saint John. It's a comparison Irving executives did not share with
MLAs at committee hearings last week. (CBC)
Saint
John Liberal MLA Gerry Lowe holds a paper copy of the presentation
Irving Oil made on property taxes to a legislature committee last week.
The document excluded six western Canadian refineries when comparing
"per barrel" property taxes. Including them would have shown Irving
Oil's facility pays property taxes at a rate below the national average. (Robert Jones/CBC)
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