Tuesday, 20 August 2019

Saint John faces 'terrible' dilemma over proposed reforms, says ex-premier's chief of staff

https://twitter.com/DavidRayAmos/with_replies





Replying to   @alllibertynews and 49 others
Methinks desperate politicians do desperate things N'esy Pas? 


https://davidraymondamos3.blogspot.com/2019/08/saint-john-faces-terrible-dilemma-over.html






https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/saint-john-highway-tolls-deficits-1.5255104




Highway tolls for commuters to Saint John rejected by province

Troubled city loses bid to collect tolls on provincial roads to avoid worse financial problems




New information is emerging about last-minute talks over the past month between the Progressive Conservative government and the City of Saint John, as municipal officials tried to win a better deal on fiscal reforms.

Council voted 7-3 to approve the package of reforms, even though it was largely unchanged from a previous version and fell well short of what many with the city had been looking for.

City officials say the municipality faces $11 million to $12 million in cuts to services if new revenue sources aren't found by 2021.


Two new key reform proposals advanced by the city were both rejected by the provincial government during those recent talks, Local Government Minister Jeff Carr confirmed Tuesday. The proposals were:
  • A plan to place highway tolls on provincially owned roads leading into the city.
  • Allowing the municipality to keep the province's portion of property tax collected from heavy industry.
Carr said the highway toll proposal would have seen tolls set up on six to eight roads leading into the city from outlying communities.
It was rejected in part, he said, because not all councillors were in favour.

"Council was split and we just didn't believe the tolls will work long term for the City of Saint John."

At least 2 councillors opposed


Coun. Blake Armstrong and Deputy Mayor Shirley McAlary have each spoken against the idea of tolls. McAlary said road tolls would only hurt city retailers and other business sectors.

She prefers adopting a poll tax instead.


That would see a special levy added to the tax bills of property owners, people living in nearby suburban communities and local service districts.

"To me that's more fair, and then you only look at it once a year," McAlary said. "So if you're going to hate Saint John, you only hate them when you're paying for that. You don't hate them 365 days of the year."

Province can't afford revenue loss


Regarding the issue of property tax revenues, Carr said Service New Brunswick records show the government would be giving up $16 million if the industrial portion were turned over to the city, and a total of $80 milllion provincewide.

"If we give to Saint John, then we have to give all the other municipalities the same consideration," Carr said. "And we just don't have that much money that we can lift and move over in one specific time."


Local Government Minister Jeff Carr says the province and city discussed a number of changes to the fiscal reform package in the 38-day period leading up to Monday's vote of Saint John council. (CBC)


Carr said a city pitch to keep all the traffic-ticket revenue collected in Saint John was rejected for the same reason.

The government did agree to last-minute changes to the language on three municipal reform proposals.

One will look at changes to the binding arbitration process for police and firefighters, another will make it easier for the city to collect surpluses from Saint John Energy, and a third changes the makeup of a regional task force of provincial and local government officials.

About the Author




Connell Smith
Reporter
Connell Smith is a reporter with CBC in Saint John. He can be reached at 632-7726 Connell.smith@cbc.ca


CBC's Journalistic Standards and Practices




128 Comments
Commenting is now closed for this story.






David R. Amos
Methinks desperate politicians do desperate things N'esy Pas? 






David R. Amos
Methinks Mr Higgs and his minions know why I found these statements more than merely interesting N'esy Pas?

"The document also commits to legislation that will allow the city to keep surpluses made by Saint John Energy."

"At that time, several councillors were unhappy the province only committed to review the property tax system, rather than go ahead with changes — particularly to the way revenue from heavy industry is allocated."

"While the new version promises no more than a review of tax policy, the language on binding arbitration is much stronger. It says the province will bring forward new legislation based on a city council motion after the municipality has consulted on the issue with its local unions."






David R. Amos

Content disabled After it was liked
Methinks its rather pointless for me to offer any further input into Saint John's woes in light of the fact that a simple "YUP" is blocked N'esy Pas?












Bernie Heather McIntyre
If the Irving's payed what their suppose to instead of getting special privileges, Saint John would be do quite well.


Johnny Horton 
Reply to @Bernie Heather McIntyre:
Right why be responsible and live within your means when you can just take money from those who have more.


Bob Smith 
Reply to @Johnny Horton: That's the mantra of SJ council for decades though...overpay city workers and police/fire and when people question finances, talk of taxing the suburbs and Irving to make everything sunshine and happiness.

David R. Amos 
Reply to @Bernie Heather McIntyre: YUP



David R. Amos 
Reply to @Bob Smith: YUP 
 












Bernie Heather McIntyre
Typical Saint John response . Make everybody else but the Irving's pay to make up the taxes that the Irving's don't. No wonder Saint John is in such a mess.



David R. Amos 
Content disabled
Reply to @Bernie Heather McIntyre: YUP
 
 
David R. Amos  
Reply to @Bernie Heather McIntyre: Its prohibited to agree with you

















Marguerite Deschamps
The loyalist City in a mess? Must be the fault of the Francophones, j'crois bin.


Richard Tingley
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: it's comments like this that water thevseedd of linguistic division in this Province!!

David R. Amos
Reply to @Richard Tingley: YUP

Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @Richard Tingley: and any time we dare to speak French, eh?

Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @David R. Amos: maybe you should tell your good friend from Saint-Louis to speak White.

Lou Bell
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: They don't get as many handouts as the francophones.

Lou Bell  
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: Put it in your next song , the one you wrote for the Family Reunion !

Johnny Horton
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps:
Marguerite always wonders who will be and jumps over the first person to bring French into the mix, but she’s usually the first one and the instigator. 

















Wal Wiseman
Man who in their right mind came up with that idea. Put a toll on the people who work in your city. McAlary was right this would kill city retailers and business sectors. Great way to boost the business sectors of Quispamsis, and Sussex. Currently, people in the outskirts work in the city, but they also shop in the city, entertain themselves in the city, etc. How about some proper fiscal management and create some incentives for people to do business. A toll is a great incentive, to go elsewhere.

John Pokiok
Reply to @wal wiseman: yeah but did you read what is her idea instead mount a poll tax on people outside of city. If you don't know what poll tax is well it's exactly same tax that British mounted on Americans that sparked American revolution. Basically SJ wants to spend money and everyone else to pay for it. I guess must be the remainers of loyalists thinking.


David R. Amos 
Reply to @wal wiseman: YUP 

 
George Smith
@ Johnny Horton "Also, most access roads to the city are provincial designated highways and thus paid for by the province,"
And the money the province uses for this comes mostly from the Cities of New Brunswick because smaller communities don't generate enough taxes to afford the infrastructure.


Johnny Horton
Reply to @George Smith:

Thst wasn’t the point, nor the point of the origins,poster,

He was complaining about outsider wear and tear on city paid roads.

While in fact other than a few short blocks to your designation, most of the trip in and out of SJ, or any city in NB is on a provincial highway,


David R. Amos  
Reply to @George Smith: NOPE 














 
Zac Beatty-Taylor
 Maybe get the Irvings to pay their property taxes. Thats an easy 8 million dollars right there

http://www.atlanticbusinessmagazine.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Just-Sayin-LR.pdf


Johnny Horton
Reply to @Zac Beatty-Taylor:

There should be an upper limit of fift thousand thst any person or business ever pays in any given year in taxes,


Jef Cronkhite 
Reply to @Zac Beatty-Taylor: Maybe you didn't read the article? The Provincial government gets those taxes........
"Regarding the issue of property tax revenues, Carr said Service New Brunswick records show the government would be giving up $16 million if the industrial portion were turned over to the city, and a total of $80 milllion provincewide."
Saint John doesn't benefit either way..........


David R. Amos 
Reply to @Zac Beatty-Taylor: YUP 

















 
Iron Man Man NB
 Making the city less attractive is not going to make you make more money. Bring people, make events, make festivals...keep the city clean. Attract immigrants that get the jobs there. Offer affordable housing, maintain. Sometimes to get things moving is needed some investment...that yes, is going to put the city in more debt, but will also bring more revenue.

Jef Cronkhite 
Reply to @Iron Man Man NB: You don't get it. Saint John's problem is that 75% of the people working and shopping in the city, live in outlying communities like Rothesay and Quispamsis. They use our roads, our services, and our amenities, but they don't pay into our tax base. We HAVE yearly events and festivals, mostly attended by those who don't pay taxes in the city.
Only the working poor actually LIVE in the city. Those with any kind of capital live in the suburbs, and REFUSE to pay into the city's coffers. All the festivals, events and affordable housing in the world is not going to change that.......


Johnny Horton
Reply to @Jef Cronkhite:

Then Don’t put on the festivals.

Also, most access roads to the city are provincial designated highways and thus paid for by the province,
Most workers pay to park while working which should be enough to cover any maintenance of roads that s trip in and out each day causes,


Jef Cronkhite 
Reply to @Johnny Horton: You don't live anywhere near SJ, do you? That would be fine if that were the case, but it's NOT. The cheapskates don't USE the parking garages, they park their cars on the off-street parking areas adjacent to the uptown area. So they further clog up our streets taking the parking spaces locals need,

Johnny Horton 
Reply to @Jef Cronkhite:

Then fix THAT problem, don’t create new ones by making more taxes and fees.

If on street parking is s problem, remove it. ( but the better solution is to actually enforce time limits, like teo hour limits so shoppers can park.)


Johnny Horton 
Reply to @Jef Cronkhite:

So you’ve never left the city. Enjoyed a day in the suburbs? Parked on their streets and Used their businesses and restaurants.a. Wow boring life indeed.


David R. Amos 
Reply to @Jef Cronkhite: Cry me a river 
















 
Tammy Calvin
Saint John needs to cut back their police force and fire dept and do an audit of all city departments. Lots of savings can be found, if they look hard enough. The citizens shouldn't be punished because excessive tax breaks have been given out to industry.

How are things going with the pension fiasco that the taxpayers ended up paying heavily for? Another nail in Saint John's coffin unfortunately.


Johnny Horton
Reply to @Tammy Calvin:

Police already dont even bother visiting minor crime scenes like broken in cars. And you want even }3££ police?


Jef Cronkhite
Reply to @Tammy Calvin: Now, there is one of the elephants that no one wants to speak of. The Saint John Police Force is an overpaid, underworked JOKE. They don't solve crimes. They rarely even show up after reported crimes, and if they do show up, they do NOTHING about it.
Yet year after year, they come with their hands out wanting more money.
The city would be far better off by either firing the works and starting over with a new group or by hiring the RCMP, as other major cities have done


David R. Amos 
Reply to @Tammy Calvin: YUP 










 
 
Rob Franklin
I hate to say it, but the coffin was built when the shipyard closed and moved to Halifax. Every year since then has just been one more nail.

I don't have an answer, but bring things like the shipyard to Saint John, and people will follow. I think what' s going on uptown is fantastic, but people can't afford to pay for all that entertainment unless they have a job period.



John Pokiok 
Reply to @Rob Franklin: Ah yes let me guess it was an Irving fault for closing the shipyard nothing to do with lazy workers for miliking it for all it was worth. Keep on dreaming Irving will never make that mistake again.

Rob Franklin 
Reply to @John Pokiok: I'm sorry John, but if you read my past posts, you will find I am an Irving supporter. I never said Irving did it. It was the loss of that many higher paying jobs that started the downward spiral. Please don't put words in my mouth

Johnny Horton
Yet people want even more Irving gone from this province, if they think things are bad now.
.qReply to @Rob Franklin:


David R. Amos 
Reply to @Rob Franklin: Say Hey to the Irving Clan for me will ya?
















Dave Girdwood
In my experience, a lot of younger people rent in Saint John when they are starting out, and move to the suburbs when they get married to raise families, never to return. Saint John needs to review why they are losing these residents to the suburbs, as well as its attractiveness to people moving into the broader area (which it loses to the suburbs), and resolve these systemic issues. Safe schools. Safe neighborhoods. Can't do much about the weather, but a 10 degree difference in the summer from Uptown Saint John to Quispamsis is also a factor. It's the livability things which need to be addressed. Otherwise this is a discussion our great grandkids will still be having. 


Donald Smith 
Reply to @Dave Girdwood: Dave you are correct with all you state. My Wife and I have listed our house for sale here in Saint John, because of mostly what you said. Listed it for even below what we paid for it. The City Political Scene has just got too nuts. Rothesay/ Quispam, Grand Bay has a lot more to offer in addition to lower taxes than Saint John. Saint John is done like a donut.

Rob Franklin 
Reply to @Donald Smith: how is a donut done?

David R. Amos 
Reply to @Rob Franklin: Just like Saint John
















Brian Robertson
Saint John prospered until Louis Robichaud and the Liberals robbed it of it's tax revenue for redistribution accross the Province.
Between that, and their penchant for picking winners and losers when it came to municipalities, Saint John has been starved into the shrinking husk we see today.
The Provinces golden goose is now in intensive care.



David R. Amos 
Reply to @Brian Robertson: YUP


















Joe Campbell
New Brunswick is the drive through province to PEI and NS. Tourism in NB is sad. It is the waste land for Irving, strip our forest, spray our forest to kill hard wood and kill our fish.
     

David R. Amos
Reply to @Joe Campbell: Methinks you are preaching to the choir N'esy Pas?

Joe Campbell
Reply to @David R. Amos: Not preaching, just my opinion! Just like your opinion that you think I am preaching, meh!

David R. Amos
Reply to @Joe Campbell: Methinks I understand why my ancestors warned us to never trust a Campbell N'esy Pas?


Joe Campbell
Reply to @David R. Amos: Classy! Methinks it best to fog that statement.

David R. Amos 
Reply to @Joe Campbell: Methinks you think only liberals such a Mr McKenna who was born on a Campbell St in Fundy royal can be classy N'esy Pas?

Joe Campbell
Reply to @David R. Amos: Now you are saying I am a Liberal, interesting observation.

David R. Amos 

Content disabled
Reply to @Joe Campbell: Methinks if it walks like duck and quacks like a duck but denies it then it must be an NDP dude or just another turkey who joined the Conservatives like Cardy did N'esy Pas?

David R. Amos
Reply to @Joe Campbell: I'm back and nearly died laughing to see that my reply went "Poof"
















George Smith
If you can't charge a toll you can raise the price of all city services the bedroom communities use in the city. Raise the cost of parking for those working in the city and any other service provided that our citizens have to pay for. People moving out of cities to avoid taxes are the real problem as it downs loads the major tax load onto the cities. Cities need to be able to get financial relief through fees if they can't get their fair share of the taxes they generate


Archie Levesque
Reply to @George Smith: Sussex isnt that far away and a lot of services are now offered outside of Saint John. Moncton & Fredericton aren't that far either. Maybe shoppers should head to one of those destinations instead.

David R. Amos 
Reply to @Archie Levesque: Methinks Sussex has its own troubles with Mr Carr N'esy Pas?

George Smith 
Reply to @Archie Levesque:
A large part of taxes cities pay go to smaller communities infrastructure for services they couldn't afford with their small tax base. The cities like Saint John don't receive their fair share of the tax pot while smaller communities receive more than they contribute.

















Lou Bell
Boy , talk about grasping at straws ! What's next , Koolaid stands ??


David R. Amos
Reply to @Lou Bell: Methinks your hero Mr Higgs would help them set up a hot dog stand if they beg him politely N'esy Pas?

Joe Campbell
Reply to @David R. Amos: Is it Irving owned? Mr. Higgs will not fund it unless Irving has a hand in the pot!

David R. Amos 
Reply to @Joe Campbell: Methinks your liberal pals are no better N'esy Pas?

Joe Campbell 
Reply to @David R. Amos: Liberals, PC's or what other governments are elected, they are all the same to me. I really do not think any government in NB will ever make a difference in my life time.
















Andrew Clarkson
When you live beyond your means it most often results in loss of the farm!


David R. Amos 
Reply to @Andrew Clarkson: Methinks that is often true except if one has friends in the government N'esy Pas?
















Freddy Rose
Saint John councillors are trying to squeeze money out of the wrong pot. Citizens don't have any more to give. The only fair answer is the one that was suggested in this story from several years ago. But until there is a revolution and the people wrest control of our province from the "Royal Family", nothing will change.

"Edmonton-area homes, stores, malls pay lower property taxes than Saint John, but oil refineries pay more"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/saint-john-alberta-tax-rules-1.3500297  



David R. Amos
Reply to @Freddy Rose: Well put
















Joseph Vacher
stop spending money you dont have st john


David R. Amos 
Reply to @Joseph Vacher: Methinks the Feds and the Provincial politicians love doing such a thing before a writ is dropped no matter what political party holds the mandate at the time N'esy Pas?


















Welby Trutthough
Saint John should keep the property tax from industry. I want to see Saint John do well, but setting up highway tolls on every road leading into a city with 70,000 people is absolutely insane. Thank goodness it was rejected!


Bob Smith 
Reply to @Welby Trutthough: So, explain the "insanity" of Halifax and their tolls. Seems to be working fine for them. Rather than tolling SJ bridges, they took them off.

Welby Trutthough 
Reply to @Bob Smith: A bridge toll is one thing, allowing people to pay for the quicker route or convenience for a small toll. A toll on every entrance to a city is literally building a wall between yourself and the outlying communities.

Joseph Vacher 
Reply to @Bob Smith: halifax doesn't really have tolls, other then the ones on the bridge, which you can bypass., There should be provincial tolls entering our province however

David R. Amos 
Reply to @Joseph Vacher: Methinks you read the platform of the KISS Party N'esy Pas?

David R. Amos 
Reply to @Joseph Vacher: Methinks you know why my Acadian friends get quite chuckle out of your ID N'esy Pas?


















Wally Manza
The province can take a weekend and make a special sole exception to tax law on the Canaport facility but can make sole exceptions to law for the city of Saint John....why?


David R. Amos  
Reply to @Wally Manza: Methinks you know the answer as well as I N'esy Pas?

















Greg Miller
Highway tolls---great idea, new revenue + decrease in visitors = less overall revenue. Who dreamed up this idea? This would be great for another city competing for business!


Bob Smith 
Reply to @Greg Miller: Halifax seems to do just fine with tolls.

Welby Trutthoug 
Content disabled 
Reply to @Bob Smith: A bridge toll is very different from placing tolls on every entrance to the city.

Bob Smith  
Reply to @Welby Trutthough: No tolls at all generates nothing but the usual circular infighting.

David R. Amos 
Reply to @Welby Trutthough: True

Greg Miller 
Reply to @Bob Smith: Saint John is NOT Halifax!


















Jonas Smith
I quite like that this government is level headed and providing good administration. Something we haven't seen in a long long time here in New Brunswick.


David R. Amos  
Reply to @Jonas Smith: Dream on






John Pokiok
And this is why no one wants to build anything in this city. These guys are chasing everyone away total insanity you're the highest property tax city in province for sure, possibly country. To fix your problems you need to curb spending and do the cuts start living with in your means. Unbelievable


David R. Amos  
Reply to @John Pokiok: Welcome to the Circus















Greg Smith
Why don’t they just install an Irving branded toll booth, so that the taxpayers’ money being funnelled off to Irving via forgivable loans and property tax discounts can be done so without the currently attached administrative expenses?


David R. Amos   
Reply to @Greg Smith: Methinks you jest just enough N'esy Pas?


















Rene Cusson
Maybe if the city charged industries what they should in taxes and loans they'd have their money problems solved? Billionaires can usually afford to pay for things you know. The average person cannot. So stop squeezing those that don't have the money and start squeezing those that not only DO have it but are already paying less than they should.


Johnny Horton
Reply to @Rene Cusson:

Maybe instead of a city trying to do everything, they scale back.

How about it’s time to stop just taxing anyone we can find more so we can all have more.



David R. Amos   
Reply to @Rene Cusson: I concur


Greg Smith
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Johnny “Irving Industry Lapdog” Horton strikes again in the comments defending tax breaks and corporate welfare for the already mega rich.


David R. Amos   
Reply to @Greg Smith: YUP


Stanley Beemish
Reply to @Johnny Horton: What is it that Saint John is "trying" to do above and beyond what every other city in Canada is required to do? Things like, you know, run a police and fire department. Also clear streets, repair/ replace infrastructure, keep traffic flowing? Has any one done a per capita cost study? It seems to me we are avoiding the elephant in the room...













Al Clark
LOL this nugget agaIN?? You can almost set your watch by it. That or convoluted reasoning why they should continue to let billionaires have a free ride. MONCTON MONCTON WAA WAAA WAAA. It doesn't take a genius to figure out why MONCTON is doing MUCH better. Have you heard this idgitcy ONCE from moncton??


David R. Amos    
Reply to @Al Clark: Methinks you SANB buddies around Moncton pound on that drum all the time N'esy Pas?
















Phil Nadeau
I just don't get it... When I go to the city, I pay for parking, I shopped around...supporting local businesses... If I planned to attend a show... I pay for my ticket.... pay for parking... etc.. again supporting the city.... I pay fees if I used sporting facilities. This mentality of some SJ folks that think that the outskirts should paying for the city financial mess is just ridiculous. It's like asking for your neighbour to help you chip in some money because you are so much in debt!!


David R. Amos     
Reply to @Phil Nadeau: Methinks you are not alone in your frustration with this nonsense N'esy Pas?














Allan J Whitney
Who could possibly have enough influence to prevent such a sensible policy?
There should also be tolls on that excellent highway system that was unexpectedly piled onto our backs.



Johnny Horton
Reply to @Allan J Whitney:
Perhaps they should toll the end of your driveway, I mean you are going to use the road and city services, so you as well should pay tolls.



David R. Amos
Reply to @Allan J Whitney: Methinks we already pay more than enough in shadow tolls no thanks to Bernie Lord and Frank McKenna N'esy Pas?

















 Donald Smith
 Perhaps Mr. Armstrong was worried about his Business Ops ?


David R. Amos  
Reply to @Donald Smith: Perhaps
















Donald Smith
Welcome to the greatest Little City In The East. For a cash strapped City, can anyone explain why a Civilian was recently hired, for be a Public Information Officer Position here in Saint John, especially when you see Police Officers in other Cities acting as Public Information Officers to the Media and so forth. If Police Officers have to write reports , make Court statements and so forth, you mean to tell us, nobody on the SJPD Could be made Public Information Officer ? Does the person hired for this position not live outside of the City as well ?


Donald Smith
Reply to @Donald Smith: We had Police Officers in Past Years doing this position, I think a lot of Officers currently on the force could easily do this position. No, I have no family members on the force. Police know Law Enforcement Procedures,. Follow the Political Connections for a cash strapped City.


Al Clark
Reply to @Donald Smith: I guess you must be a police officer. I think most of them took shop in highschool for a certain reason. I haven't met too many smart ones. Did you follow the trial? Better to have someone literate who has studied communications, even though that translates to professional fibber.


David R. Amos
Reply to @Al Clark: Methinks you certainly know how to keey friends and influence your cop pals N'esy Pas?
















Ben Haroldson
So the wanted to tax the yellow brick road?


David R. Amos 
Reply to @Ben Haroldson: We ain't in Kansas













Jake Newman
Saint John doesn't have a revenue problem but a spending problem.


David R. Amos  
Reply to @Jake Newman: Oh so true









https://twitter.com/DavidRayAmos/with_replies





Replying to   @alllibertynews and 49 others
Methinks the liberals just made another major faux pas mere weeks before the writ is dropped N'esy Pas?


https://davidraymondamos3.blogspot.com/2019/08/saint-john-faces-terrible-dilemma-over.html





https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/loans-irving-forgiven-1.5253541





https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/municipal-reform-local-government-regional-services-property-taxes-tax-1.5252914



Saint John councillors reluctantly approve municipal reform package

Report offers review of property tax system, regional service commission


Saint John councillors have reluctantly endorsed a proposed list of provincial and municipal reforms aimed at helping the city through a looming financial crisis.

It is hoped the reforms will head off major cuts to city services, following several years of nearly flat revenue growth and steadily rising costs.

The deal commits the province to review its property tax policy and to remove the provincial tax on public transit facilities that belong to municipalities.


It will also require outlying communities to share capital costs for regional facilities such as Saint John's Harbour Station and the Canada Games Aquatic Centre. Currently, those municipalities help pay for operating costs but leave the purchase and maintenance costs to the city.
We didn't get a heck of a lot more, folks, you don't have to read that to know that.

- Coun. David Merrithew
The reforms could include changes to the binding arbitration process used to settle disputes with police and fire unions. Right now, those unions are not legally allowed to go on strike.

The reforms also commit the province to review the regional service commission model to better share costs for some services across municipal borders.

Last month, an earlier version of the document was tabled by city councillors, after it became clear it did not have enough support to pass.

At that time, several councillors were unhappy the province only committed to review the property tax system, rather than go ahead with changes — particularly to the way revenue from heavy industry is allocated.

Council can't win a better deal


The new report is largely unchanged from the July version. But some councillors said they are now resigned to the idea they cannot win a better reform package.



"We didn't get a heck of a lot more, folks, you don't have to read that to know that." said Coun. David Merrithew, who heads the city's finance committee.


Saint John council has signed on with the province to explore a list of potential municipal reforms aimed at improving the city's structural deficit. (CBC)


While the new version promises no more than a review of tax policy, the language on binding arbitration is much stronger. It says the province will bring forward new legislation based on a city council motion after the municipality has consulted on the issue with its local unions.

The document also commits to legislation that will allow the city to keep surpluses made by Saint John Energy.
Deputy Mayor Shirley McAlary says the proposed changes in the report will do little to avert millions in cuts to city services, which will have to be made at the end of next year.


Local Government Minister Jeff Carr claims the deal will be worth 'several million' dollars annually to the city. (Connell Smith, CBC)


"It's not addressing 2021 or 2022," said McAlary. "You can say whatever you like, it's not addressing that, and it's not just $12 million.  It's $12 million for 2021 and $12 million for 2022.

"That's a lot of staff and a lot of services that we've got to cut over the next number of years."

'Politically motivated'


Premier Blaine Higgs presented the revised report to city councillors at a closed door meeting last week.

Local Government Minister Jeff Carr was pleased with council's approval of the document Monday night.

But he disputed city claims that the city will have to make $12 million in cuts by 2022.
He claims the changes being offered by the province are worth several million annually.

"They keep throwing out that $12 million number," said Carr. "To me it's politically motivated for a couple of them."

About the Author




Connell Smith
Reporter
Connell Smith is a reporter with CBC in Saint John. He can be reached at 632-7726 Connell.smith@cbc.ca







47 Comments
Commenting is now closed for this story.


 


David R. Amos
Methinks it should be kinda obvious why there was an article yesterday quoting Gallant's Chief Staff taking pity on Saint John while the Federal liberals write off huge loans to the Irving Clan in Saint John N'esy Pas?






https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/loans-irving-forgiven-1.5253541



2 multimillion-dollar loans to Irving company forgiven by ACOA

ACOA president Francis McGuire approves the closure of the two files


The federal government has written off the balance of two multimillion-dollar loans given to Irving-owned Atlantic Wallboard in Saint John.

The Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency closed the file on the two loans in March after deciding that the full amount "has not been and likely will never be repaid," according to a memorandum obtained by CBC News.

The two loans, called "conditionally repayable contribution agreements," were worth a combined $7.4 million. They were made under ACOA's Saint John Shipyard Adjustment Initiative.


In the March 27 memo, ACOA vice-president Kent Estabrooks says the company "has fulfilled their obligation to repay according to terms of their contribution agreements," though it hadn't repaid the full amount.

He recommended that agency president Francis McGuire approve the closure of the two files.

Amount repaid not known


"The contributions will never be fully repaid," Estabrooks wrote. McGuire approved the recommendation with his signature.

The memo says Atlantic Wallboard only had to start repaying the loans when it "demonstrated a net income related to the project" but that didn't necessarily require the entire amount.
ACOA released the memo in response to an access to information request. The agency redacted the precise amount that had been repaid.

Agency spokesperson Sharon Stanford-Rutter said there's still $9.9 million "outstanding" under the shipyard program from Bayside Realties, another Irving company.



"ACOA is continuing its due diligence on the $9.9 million to determine if any amounts are repayable," she said.

J.D. Irving Ltd. spokesperson Mary Keith said in an email that Atlantic Wallboard "fulfilled its obligations" under four loans it received from ACOA.

Keith said in an email statement that the company, which makes gypsum drywall, built "the most modern plant in Canada" and has grown to 100 employees, "despite weathering the great recession and collapse of the U.S. housing market."

Loans followed Irving's closure of shipyard


The two loans were part of a $55 million federal program launched in 2003 to cushion the economic impact of J.D. Irving Ltd. closing its shipyard in the city. Ottawa established the program after Irving centralized its shipbuilding business in Halifax.

At the time the initiative was announced in 2003, Irving said it would not receive any of the federal funding until it matched it with its own money.



Atlantic Wallboard didn't meet success targets required for repayment of a $35 million loan. (CBC)


In a 2006 report, ACOA said an initial $4 million had been earmarked for a feasibility study to find a new use for the site and said that would be increased to $9.9 million. That's the amount still outstanding.

ACOA then provided Irving with a total of $42.4 million to help establish Atlantic Wallboard. The first loan, for $35 million, wasn't repaid because the company didn't achieve certain targets, ACOA said.

The two subsequent loans, the ones written off this year, were for $6.1 million issued in March 2011 and $1.2 million issued in March 2012.

'Full recovery' of loans not required 


An ACOA spokesperson told The Canadian Press last year that the company had repaid $540,000 of those two loans and that any repayment meant "that the company has met the required milestones for repayment for those years of operation."

But ACOA is now refusing to say how much of the loans had been repaid when the files were closed in March.

The memo says the two funding agreements weren't designed to require "full recovery" but to reduce the risk that Atlantic Wallboard would reap "significant windfall profits … without ACOA first being repaid."
The Saint John Shipyard Adjustment Initiative was controversial when it was announced in 2003.

Then-Liberal industry minister Allan Rock, responsible for ACOA when the funding was approved, had accepted a free family vacation at the Irving fishing camp on the Restigouche River during his time as health minister.

Federal ministers were not allowed to accept gifts worth over $200 under the rules in place at the time.



CBC's Journalistic Standards and Practices




237 Comments
Commenting is now closed for this story.





David R. Amos 
Methinks the liberals just made another major faux pas mere weeks before the writ is dropped N'esy Pas? 









Maggie Leard
methinks it is very sad for our federal Ottawa government to allow Irving to close out the historic to saint john shipbuilding enterprise ….the move has not allowed any savings nor time to construct navy frigates by giving more work to irving Halifax instead of keeepint saint john..where the talented ship buildiers are located...(not to mention the deeper and better harbjour to operate navy ships (and patridge island that has welcomed navy ships from 1700's onward.and the site of the first fog horn lighthouse designed by saint john researchers and entrepreneurs.!) however, I cant believe trludeau is allowing this non payment...for he must have approved the closure of these files....perhaps he thinks NBers are so stupid as to re-elect the liberal MPs (in great numbers....) that exist in NB...... 


Johnny Horton
Reply to @Maggie Leard:

Yes cause Halifax has no history with shipbuilding... no islands in its harbour.l.



David R. Amos 
Reply to @Maggie Leard: Methinks it interesting that you employ the word methinks N'esy Pas? 


Al Clark
Good 'ol Francis McGuire. Whenever his name appears in the news it costs us BIGTIME!  













JJ Carrier
Collusion...patronage...carpetbagging...Irving money for free...free trips on the Restigouche...Jacques Poitras reporting...must be a Tuesday...  

Lou Bell 
I buy Lottery tickets EVERY week and NEVER win ! The Government assures these BILLIONAIRES win BIG ( Millions ) 2 or 3 times a year !

Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @Lou Bell: lottery tickets is a voluntary tax on the fools. What does that tell ya?


Lou Bell 
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: By the fools . Your SANB / Liberal endorsers. 














 
John Valcourt 
I guess Dominic's plane trip wasn't so free after all now was it. This reeks of the liberal pary hierarchy.


George Matthews
Reply to @John Valcourt: In march we had a conservative gov.


John Valcourt 
Reply to @George Matthews: but those decisions are made by Ottawa and that is the federal liberal party who allowed those loans to slide, not the provincial pc party although I am sure higgs was smiling ear to ear about the decision that was made for his boss.


Johnny Horton
Reply to @John Valcourt:

It was also the liberals in power in the early 2000s when the contracts were made.



















Natalie Pugh
This should infuriate every citizen in NB! For those PANB haters a reminder that this was one on the top of their platform to eliminate corporate welfare and force Irving to pay it's due taxes to New Brunswick. This must happen but with a headline so buried beneath garbage news most NB's wont give it a second thought!

Johnny Horton
Reply to @Natalie Pugh:

Why? All Irving has done is use the systems available to them. Like anyone can, you are free to start a company and put your HQ in Bermuda.

Plus, the Irving’s receive chump change compared to Alberta oil companies in subsidies,

Have you ever taken advantage of government initiatives? Say like one of the energy efficiency bursuries? That’s funded by every taxpayer, giving you their money. There tons of such programs out there. It’s no different,



David Peters 
Reply to @Johnny Horton:

Can anyone get 1000's of acres of crown land to harvest for $1...and then get taxpayer's to build a road in to access it?



David Peters
Reply to @Johnny Horton:

...and then have a marketing board set the price of lumber less than what it costs to harvest it, for other private woodlot owners? Can anyone do that?



Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Peters:

Yes.



Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Peters:

You are free to start a wood company, build it up and lobby the government
Not a thing stopping you or anyone, other than the fact you’d rather waste time complaining at someone else’s success than actually go and get your own success.



Johnny Horton
Reply to @David Peters:

Hey david, start a business and put your headquarters in Bermuda. Not a thing stopping you. All legal.



Anne Berube
Reply to @Johnny Horton: Stop preaching to the choir, you know very well if you Ma & Pop shop, you will go nowhere. 














 
James Risdon
It's only $7 million. When you think about the contribution of the Irvings to the economy, is a few million dollars either way really a big deal?

Leonard G. MacAulay
Reply to @James Risdon:
YES !
 


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/jordan-obrien-saint-john-fiscal-report-1.5251869


Saint John faces 'terrible' dilemma over proposed reforms, says ex-premier's chief of staff

Jordan O'Brien says deal worked out with previous government was designed to prevent harmful budget cuts


Brian Gallant's former chief of staff says Saint John city council finds itself in a "terrible" dilemma as it wrestles with whether to endorse a report on possible fiscal reforms.

Jordan O'Brien says the proposals, released last month by the Blaine Higgs government, are "not that bad" but don't go "as far or as fast as we had had in mind."

The report by a working group of provincial and city officials was the product of a three-year, $22.8 million financial aid package the previous Liberal government put in place for the city in late 2017.



O'Brien said the proposals put council in a difficult position because they could take several years to implement, and the city faces the expiration of the three-year funding agreement next year.

"Changes need to happen right away if they're going to keep the situation in the black," he said in an interview with CBC's Information Morning Saint John. 

Debate over report


The Higgs government released the report last month. It proposes a review of the city's property tax base, including industrial assets, and of how regional services are administered and funded.

Saint John city council debated the report at a July council meeting but could not agree on whether to accept its recommendations. Mayor Don Darling cast the tie-breaking vote to put off the decision until the next council meeting, which takes place tonight.
Gallant promised the package in September 2017 as Saint John city council faced the prospect of deep service cuts to balance its 2018 budget.

The three-year funding deal "was there to create some time and space to get the more substantive reforms in place," O'Brien said.



MacPherson's audit said the city "leveraged" the looming provincial election to get the Liberals to offer the deal. But O'Brien said the pressure was coming from the city's need to make decisions about possible cuts in its 2018 budget.

O'Brien said the cuts council would have needed to make in 2018 without the bailout would have made the city less attractive to newcomers, driving more people to outlying municipalities and deepening the city's fiscal challenge.
They had indicated that it was perfectly appropriate, legally, and unfortunately the current government didn't see fit to release those legal opinions.

- Jordan O'Brien
"These sorts of the cuts, we felt, would put an end to that progress and send things back in the wrong direction."

Because the province is ultimately responsible for municipal debt, "the risk of not acting was a lot bigger than the risk of acting," he said.

Opinion challenged


O'Brien recently published a newspaper opinion article challenging Auditor-General Kim MacPherson's recent audit of the bailout.

He said that she lacked key information and that her conclusion that the Liberals violated two provincial laws was contradicted by legal advice from government lawyers.

MacPherson was denied the right to see that advice by the current Progressive Conservative government, O'Brien said.
"She did a really good job," O'Brien said. "She always does. … but you know, nothing's perfect."
MacPherson's audit in June said the government circumvented" the Local Governance Act and violated the intent of the Financial Administration Act.

O'Brien said government lawyers had advised him and Gallant that there was no legal concern.

'Perfectly appropriate'


"They had indicated that it was perfectly appropriate, legally, and unfortunately the current government didn't see fit to release those legal opinions to her, so she wasn't able to rely on that information," he said.

O'Brien also disputed MacPherson's conclusion that the bailout package was out of the norm and would give the city an incentive to keep running deficits.

He said the funding was no different from money the province transfers to all municipalities for a range of projects and services.

"Without those dollars, many or most municipalities would be running deficits every year," he said.
MacPherson stood by her conclusions earlier this month after listening to two days of witnesses testify about the deal at the legislature's public accounts committee.

"The agreement did not include specific outcomes to be achieved …  and has failed to effectively address the city's challenges or mitigate inherent risk to the province," she said at the time, repeating her main criticisms.

MacPherson's spokesperson said Monday she had no comment on O'Brien's interview.







62 Comments
Commenting is now closed for this story.



David R. Amos
Surprise Surprise Surprise


Al Clark 
Reply to @David R. Amos: oh Christmas!


David R. Amos 
Reply to @Al Clark: Say Hey to TJ for me will ya? 
 










Matt Steele
O'Brien , one of Brian Gallant's backroom boys , now thinks that he know more than the Auditor General knows...lol . Maybe O'Brien can enlighten the taxpayers about how Brian Gallant was going to blow 130 MILLION of the taxpayers cash on some Francophonie scam games that Gallant claimed not to be informed about ; or how Gallant's Best Man from his wedding ended up on the Francophonie Games organizing committee where over 2 MILLION dollars was spent ?


Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @Matt Steele: this was about giving money for helping Saint John, an Anglophone City, get out of the hole. What does this have to do with la francophonie?












Paul Estey
I only have one question on this matter that no one has obviously broached before...where was the CFO for the City of Saint John or the Auditors that reviewed the year end Financial Statements over the past 10 years or so? Where there ever recommendations to correct the path they were going down?....Can anyone answer this ???


David R. Amos
Reply to @Paul Estey: Methinks some folks must recall former Saint John councillor John Ferguson trying to get them to act ethically in 2006 before the LNG terminal was built N'esy Pas?















Jason Inness
Let's face it, this was a payoff in the lead up to a provincial election so that council wouldn't attack the Liberals for helping the Irvings screw the city again. It was hush money. It wasn't meant to address any root causes of the city's financial issues, it was meant to kick the problem down the road to the next elected council. They should never have accepted the money to begin with. They should have instead used their public profiles to fight to have the LNG property assessment reversed to reflect the real value of the property. By accepting the money, they (council) basically gave up the fight for fair property taxation before it even began.


David R. Amos  
Reply to @Jason Inness: YUP















Richard Dunn
O'Brien.......Gallant's right hand man.......who has an Arts Degree, with a focus on European History, is telling us that he knows better than the Auditor General?


David R. Amos 
Reply to @Richard Dunn: Welcome to the Circus














Maggie Leard
saint john is new brunswick's founding city...the oldest incorporated city in what is now canada....the historic value of saint john needs to be included in any government bureaucrats thinking on $$ matters....the provincial governments previously sent millions of dollars to the moncton area...$$$ that saint john was not given....tourism $$$ looking back several decades was ordered by liberal governments to not include saint john and the lower saint john river communities....the financial problems in saint john are result of fredericton politicians delibertly ignoring the history and economic base historically ---- one also has to blame the federal governments ignorance in developing heritage sites in saint john (like partridge island, loyalist cemetaries, the orange order, the military history of british navy in saint john.etc)
i note that 'bilingulism french' seems to have an impact on saint john negatively...and ask you all to note that Quebec and Quebecer born public servants in new brunswick hate the saint john and southern new brunswick..



Bob Smith
Reply to @Maggie Leard: Laying blame solely at the feet of Fredericton politicians is a bit overstretching. SJ's poor finances start with city councils of the past...overspending on structures that contributed little to the financial health of city, giving out generous pensions to city workers that are now impacting the bottom line and a bizarre hostility/animosity to new business ventures (remember the Reversing Falls restaurant fiasco). Even if SJ got money from the province on the level of Fredericton or Moncton, there is little to indicate the city would spend the money wisely.


David R. Amos 
Reply to @Bob Smith: True















Mario Doucet
When will the SANB box boy Gallant finally leave the public trough?


Maggie Leard 
Reply to @Mario Doucet: it is the liberal party mafia way!!!


David R. Amos  
Reply to @Mario Doucet: Methinks for obvious reasons he should wait until the next writ is dropped N'esy Pas?














Bob Smith
So, the timing of Gallant basically dropping a big bag of cash on SJ with no conditions or recommendations right before a provincial election was perfectly fine? I'll take McPherson's opin on it over a Gallant lackey any day....


Al Clark 
Reply to @Bob Smith: So take it back LOL


David R. Amos  
Reply to @Al Clark: Methinks you dudes are having a lot of fun at our expense N'esy Pas?


Al Clark 
Reply to @David R. Amos: You have your limited # of standards linked to F keys don't you?


David R. Amos  
Reply to @Al Clark: Methinks thats a certain liberal lawyer's forte N'esy Pas?


Al Clark 
Reply to @David R. Amos: Oh, you know my lawyer? As a matter of fact I think she does!















Mack Leigh
Okay, let's see we have Jordan O'Brien in one corner who attended UNB and received a BA in Canadian History. He also took a course in Public Service Management at UNB....In the other corner we have our Auditor General Kim MacPherson giving a learned, detailed report on the "Deal " that Gallant made with Saint John.. A deal in which Gallant had no problem breaking the rules and probably a few laws..... O'Brien was also one of the main characters involved in the property assessment scandal...... So, who would you believe in all of this mess : AG MacPherson or the Gallant lapdog O'Brien ?


Al Clark
Reply to @Mack Leigh: You skipped over her resume????


Joseph Vacher
Reply to @Mack Leigh: in victor we trust


David R. Amos 
Reply to @Al Clark: Methinks a lot of folks would love to see your resume N'esy Pas?

Al Clark
Reply to @David R. Amos: No need. You have decreed I work for irv. In fact I am surprised your muddled head hasn't decreed I AM Mr Irving.


David R. Amos
Reply to @Al Clark: Methinks nearly everybody works for Irving these days even the private woodlot owners in Southern NB N'esy Pas?


Al Clark
Reply to @David R. Amos: The outfit I work for now and several previous employers have done work for irv. One has to have some honest customers as well to be able to afford carrying them for 100 days.















Mack Leigh
Would someone please tell me exactly what the credentials of Mr. Jordan O'Brien are ? Is he a certified mathematician or chartered accountant ? What is his field of expertise that would allow him to call into question the report done by our Auditor General ? Is he now trying to paint a nice rosy picture for the " deal " that was made by former premier Brian Gallant ? Gallants actions have repeatedly proven that his interests are not in making the right decisions for the people of NB but rather making the " right " decisions for the benefit of Brian Gallant., in my opinion.


Richard Dunn
 Reply to @Mack Leigh: His LinkedIn profile shows an Arts Degree...…."In addition to a major in Canadian history, I took a considerable number of courses in European history, computer science and French."


David R. Amos 
Reply to @Richard Dunn: I'm not impressed 











Lou Bell
Can hardly see the strings on the SANB pahpet.


David R. Amos
Reply to @Lou Bell: Methinks you should upgrade your glassesr N'esy Pas? 












Michael Levesque
what parasite to the taxpayer for life job did O'brien get for helping Gallant mismanage NB.


David R. Amos
Reply to @michael levesque: Methinks we should all wonder if if he is still working for the government N'esy Pas?












Lou Bell
I suspect " ethics " was not part of the contract Gallant signed in his deal with Ryerson.


David R. Amos
Reply to @Lou Bell: Methinks law schools do not know what ethics are N'esy Pas? 














 
John O'Brien
Gallant totally destroyed his, and the Acadians, credibility.He proved that the vast majority of his decisions were made in self-interest or to benefit Acadia. Why would we believe anything his Francophone lieutenant says.


Marguerite Deschamps 
Reply to @John O'Brien: to most of you it's all about French and English. Then you accuse others of playing the language card although you always bing it up.


Maggie Leard
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: i find it difficult to absorb what lingulisticaly new brunswick has become....1)any persons want to apply for a permanent job with both the new brunswick & national governments must speak the quebec dialict of french (no acadian need apply)...2) it is difficult to understand the seeding of french in new brunswick is being carried out by Quebecers???why.3) we've just celebrated Acadian Days in new brunswick...and yet for the permanent jobs in a province of many many government jobs Acadians are deneighed their rights....new brunswick french (not acadians) are using quebec culture and french language as a military tool to get rid of cradle acadians in the government services. to me, NB once had a beautiful relationship between acadia and the loyalists etc....then came 'equalization' a program that has morfed into the destruction of new brunswick.


Michael Edward Steeves
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: you have to understand that in a province where the percentage of french is just over 28 % and the Acadian descendants is just over 3 % ( look it up), we do tend to spend too much much needed money on it. I am not knocking the french, i am really not, but sometimes common sense has to over shadow squeaky wheels. I am all about equal rights for all, but that is currently not the case and it's easy to see. How many other countries do you know of that would make a massive effort to disadvantage the majority of their population just to please a minority? A minority that less than 2 % of that has identified as not fully functional in English, the language most of the world does business in. Take the emotions out of it and look at it from an outsiders point of view. cheers  


Michael Edward Steeves
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: Bilingualism costs us soooo much money that could be allocated to other much needed programs that actually help people. it should be done on an as is basis. Not a blanket "everyone one should be bilingual" statement. if there is a need, then add it or hire more. 28 percent of the population and declining every year, but yet the french hold 70 percent of government jobs. Jobs where they speak english all day everyday and rarely get to speak french at all.


Michael Edward Steeves
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: Think of it this way. You have 4 kids. One is a daughter and the other 3 are sons. Instead of buying girl clothes for the girl and boy clothes for the boys, you are told to by all girl clothes and suck it up. Not much for promoting happiness is it?


Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @Maggie Leard: where do you get all these assinine assumptions?


Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @Michael Edward Steeves: as for you, I know where you get your figures; the Anglo Society.


Marguerite Deschamps
Reply to @Maggie Leard: furthermore, there is only one correct French language, the one Acadians, Quebeckers and French from France learn in schrool. How about talking about something you know something about?


David R. Amos
Reply to @Marguerite Deschamps: Methinks everybody knows the score about you and your liberal/SNAB buddies N'esy Pas?


Michel Forgeron
Reply to @Michael Edward Steeves: "the french hold 70 percent of government jobs". Where did you get this number?


Marguerite Deschamps 
Reply to @Michel Forgeron: on that Anglo Society site, the equivalent of Fox News.


Marguerite Deschamps 
Reply to @David R. Amos: you speak for everybody? Which is why you get about 50 votes at every election.


Stephen Long
Reply to @Michael Edward Steeves: Be careful of Marguerite Mike, she will bite!
 
 

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