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‏ @DavidRayAmos
Replying to @DavidRayAmos @Kathryn98967631 and 49 others

Methinks a former Liberal Minister of Defense David Pratt may take my call N'esy Pas?

https://davidraymondamos3.blogspot.com/2018/12/feds-irving-ask-trade-tribunal-to-toss.html

#nbpoli #cdnpoli

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/irving-canadian-international-trade-tribunal-federal-government-1.4959021

Feds, Irving ask trade tribunal to toss challenge to warship contract

186 Comments
Commenting is now closed for this story.

David Amos

I have no doubt whatsoever that many lawyers working for the Feds and the Irving Shipbuilding Company will be up nights well into the New Year wondering what to do about me now that this article has been published

David Amos

Hmmm Perhaps the Alion dudes should talk to me

Nestor Neville Nelson

@David Amos

Nope.

They don't have time
for nonsense

David Amos

@Nestor Neville Nelson Methinks a former Liberal Minister of Defense David Pratt may take my call N'esy Pas?

Arlond Lynds

Much like the contract the Harper Government™ signed on our behalf with IBM for the Phoenix debacle, rest assured we are well and truly hung hung out to dry with the Irvings.

David Amos

@Arlond Lynds YUP

Al Kennedy

@Arlond Lynds
Harper IBM. Brison Irving.

James Holden

@Al Kennedy

Right on the first, wrong on the second.
Do try to look these things up beforehand.
https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2012/01/12/federal_government_and_irving_shipyard_in_halifax_reach_shipbuilding_agreement.html

David Amos

@James Holden Methinks you must be aware that Harper politically vetted all the judges before he appointed them including the General Counsel for the Irving's Shipbuilding Company who is the same dude I had quite a hoedown with in Federal Court of January 11th, 2016 N'esy Pas?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/stephen-harpers-courts-how-the-judiciary-has-been-remade/article25661306/

David Amos

@Al Kennedy Methinks it should be a small wonder why I ran for public office against these people 6 times thus far N'esy Pas?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/mark-normal-scott-brison-letter-1.4865841

Al Kennedy

@David Amos
First sentence in your linked story: "For a decade, the Prime Minister has been on a quest to take back the judiciary from the Liberals." Harper is gone and now Trudeau is changing it back. A good example is in your linked story "Associate Chief Justice John Rooke was appointed by Harper and presided over Khadr trial." And today "Prime Minister Justin Trudeau‘s Liberal government has appointed Omar Khadr‘s former lawyer John Norris as a justice in federal court."

Al Kennedy

@James Holden
I read it different. The lawsuit is not that the ships will be built in Canada, but rather which company's design was selected. In the above story it clearly states: "Lockheed's bid was contentious from the moment the design competition was launched in October 2016. Alion was one of three companies, along with U.S. defence giant Lockheed Martin and Spanish firm Navantia, vying to design the new warships, which are to be built by Irving and serve as the navy's backbone for most of this century."

David Amos

@Al Kennedy "And today "Prime Minister Justin Trudeau‘s Liberal government has appointed Omar Khadr‘s former lawyer John Norris as a justice in federal court."

You must be aware that on the very same day that Trudeau The Younger appointed Norris (whom I crossed paths with many years ago) he also appointed his Deputy Minister of Justice Bill Pentney to Federal Court. Pentney is the same lawyer I was arguing in Federal Court when Harper was still the PM.

Methinks Trudeau was very dumb to continue defending actions of the RCMP and the Harper government against me after he became the PM N'esy Pas?

David Amos

@Al Kennedy FYI this is a recording of my encounter with the former Irving Shipbuilding Company General Counsel in Federal Court on January 11th, 2016.

https://archive.org/details/Jan11th2015

Methinks not many men can talk to judges like I do and win N'esy Pas? BTW Even though Southcott decided in my favour I remained true to my word and appealed his decision because of the conflict of interest.

David Amos

@Al Kennedy "And today "Prime Minister Justin Trudeau‘s Liberal government has appointed Omar Khadr‘s former lawyer John Norris as a justice in federal court."

This is my encounter in Federal Court on December 14th, 2015 with the RCMP's former lawyer within the Arar Inquiry

https://archive.org/details/BahHumbug

Methinks Justice Bell was very ethical N'esy Pas?

James Holden

@Maxim Waddington

Harper is no longer a cabinet member.

David Amos

@James Holden Methinks Harper and will always be a big cheese within the Privy Council Office N'esy Pas?

Maxim Waddington

The awarding stinks of fish. A full investigation is in order. The smell is strong of interference by a cabinet member who is pals with Irvine.

David Amos

@Maxim Waddington YUP

Gerard Groenewegen

Alion seems to have a reasonable argument. Let's hope it gets standing. What we have seen in the Adm Norman case is there is a great deal of politics in naval procurement. The Trudeau Liberals don't want the politics scrutinized in a court like tribunal. Canadians should want to see it so we can judge the Trudeau Liberals. The Libs' so called urgency is to avoid a tribunal in an election year.

David Amos

@Gerard Groenewegen YUP

Howie Torrans

It may be time to examine the whole Canadian military budget. Most countries of Canada's population don't spend anywhere near what Canada does. One exception is Saudi Arabia, but that's part of the price they pay for making the USA their friend. In any case, we should probably cut our military budget in half, and concentrate on ships and aircraft that would be useful in monitoring our coastline, doubling as rescue vehicles.

David Amos

@Howie Torrans I Wholeheartedly Agree Sir

Jeff hunt

So let me see if I have this right. Two companies are upset because their bagman didn't have the right stuff ( big enough bags of money).
No one wins fairly and no one loses with dignity seems to be the order of the day when it comes to military contracts.

jimmy vee

@Jeff hunt The Irving's win again

David Amos

@jimmy vee Methinks the fat lady ain't sung yet N'esy Pas?

Rob Lehtisaari

I suspect that Alion will not win this tribunal challenge based on the facts.

Nestor Neville Nelson

@Rob Lehtisaari

Our marionette government
has to dance to its
American puppeteers' commands

The American puppeteers likely want
Lockheed to get the deal

David Amos

@Nestor Neville Nelson "The American puppeteers likely want
Lockheed to get the deal"

Methinks the Irving Clan wants it more N'esy Pas?

Bob Gillies

When it comes to military procurement everything this Trudeau touches seems to turn into lead weight.
Sure the previous government had it's challenges too but at least they had some successes along the way...CC-117s, CC-130Js, and CH-147 Chinooks to name a few but this current liberal government seems to turn EVERYTHING to stone. Even their selection of new surveillance aircraft is being challenged.
It will be 4 years in government and the Trudeau liberals will have failed to deliver even ONE piece of new major equipment to our military.

Rob Lehtisaari

@Bob Gillies

The Boeing C 17's are good, and likely the Dfence Minister O'Connor former Boeing Lobbyist just prior to becoming Defence Minister might have had a lot to do with the no competitive bid contract that was sole sourced.

The Hercules J's would have been purchased by wither stripe of Government of Canada...the old Herc's needed replacing and for decades the J was the preffered Candidate.

On the Chinooks the old C, & D's that the "Harper Government" purchased were all older than the Chinooks the Mulroney Conservatives sold to the Dutch (which were refurbished like new by "we" Canadians at Boeing prior to sale & delivery) the loss of said Chinooks by the Conservative Mulroney Government insured the casualties, and wounded from having to run the IED laced roads of Afghanistan.

The Chinooks F's were a good purchase by the Canadian Government after recognizing that loss from the earlier Conservative sale cost Canadians lives.
As such while the credit for the "buy" was done on the Harper Party watch, any Canadian Government would have been hard pressed not to fix that earlier mistake of selling off heavy helicopter lift capability--in the face of Afghanistan's lessons.

On the last bit, did you not notice the purchase of " Airbus chosen to build Canada's new search planes, ending 12-year procurement odyssey"
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/fixed-wing-search-planes-1.3885653

Noteworthy is that in that last link we see how the process of procurement on CF was being corrupted by politicization over need, price, & capability requirement.

Pete Lang

@Bob Gillies Sounds like another government in recent history!

Carl Gustaf

@Rob Lehtisaari

So what you are saying is war monger Chertien and Mr. Dithers Martin should have bought new Chinooks instead of sending the troops off to a war zone to be blown up in an Iltis wearing a green uniform. Is that what you are saying ??

ABTL 2019

David Amos

@Rob Lehtisaari Methinks Mr Mulroney and his lawyers recall my doings with the Oliphant Inquiry N'esy Pas?

Carl Gustaf

Good lord, is there even one single file the Trudeau Liberals have not turned into a expensive and unending debacle ??

ABTL 2019

Nestor Neville Nelson

@Carl Gustaf

Yep.
Electoral reform.
Promise broken quickly.
Not too expensive.

Clarence Hemeon

@Carl Gustaf

drivel

Nestor Neville Nelson

@Carl Gustaf

It's not Trudeau doing that.
It's his puppeteers

Bob Gillies

@Nestor Neville Nelson
"Yep.
Electoral reform.
Promise broken quickly.
Not too expensive"

That is a matter of opinion. The ongoing committee meetings and consultations with Canadians cost money only to have Trudeau trash it.
Add to that the cost of their stupid online survey which was designed to support Trudeau's view and the cost adds up.

Nestor Neville Nelson

@Bob Gillies

Everything adds up.

But that doesn't mean
it was in the billions of dollars
like everything else

David Amos

@Bob Gillies "That is a matter of opinion."

Methinks you should check my words with the ERRE Committee as I did predict the outcome correctly and it is a matter of the public record N'esy Pas?

Colin Beck

Hong Kong's submarines are 50% tofu just like Canada's.

Nestor Neville Nelson

@Colin Beck

As a non-sovereign territory,
Hong Kong has never had
a military force of its own.

David Amos

@Nestor Neville Nelson Methinks they just hired a Canadian judge too N'esy Pas?

Mark (Junkman) George

As Trump would say: it sounds very "marginal" (or sketchy) to me.

Nestor Neville Nelson

@Mark (Junkman) George

Perhaps you mean *fishy*

David Amos

@Nestor Neville Nelson "Perhaps you mean *fishy*"

Methinks something smells rotten in the Irving Clan's backrooms N'esy Pas?

Darren MacDonald

If companies are not meeting the requirements of the contract, why are the Libs giving these companies the contract? I bet at least 2 Lib Ministers have their hand in on this, no?

Leonardo Chiavatelli

@Darren MacDonald We should ask Mr. Brison I'm sure he has the answer.

Rob Lehtisaari

@Darren MacDonald

If the contract meets the stated re-defined requirements then allegations of wrong doing lacking basis in fact become mere smear, no?

Darren MacDonald

@Rob Lehtisaari "If the contract meets the stated re-defined requirements"
You don't do this unless all bids fail to meet the original requirements. You don't keep doing do-overs until you get your preferred company.

Rob Lehtisaari

@Darren MacDonald

Several of the bidders were all offered these same opportunities to make their bids "compliant" to specifications.

Marguerite Deschamps

@Darren MacDonald, you seem to know a lot about patronage. I wonder why.

David Amos

@Marguerite Deschamps Methinks we should ask you the same question N'esy Pas?

Bob Gillies

Strange how the Trudeau liberals turned the ship building file into a debacle when they took over government. The original plan was for a Canadian design, more expensive for sure, but promoting Canadian industry and without all the legal pitfalls of going international.
No wonder we can't compete on the international stage when our government doesn't give Canada a fighting chance.
We would rather buy "off the shelf" stuff rather than develop our own industry.

Alison Jackson

@Bob Gillies
Yeah I know: The F-35 Fighter jet debacle was a complete mess, talk about buying "off the shelf" Cost us billions and we got nothing in return and all because the government didn't do its research, they were so excited to appease the American military Industrial complex.
Who was the PM in charge of that mess...Stephen something..?

Leonardo Chiavatelli

@Alison Jackson your history knowledge is quote limited. Canada started contributing to the F35 project a bit more than 20 years ago. Let me give you a hint Stephen had nothing to do with it. Try again.

Bob Gillies

@Alison Jackson
You may have noticed that the current LIBERAL government has put the F-35 back on the table despite PROMISING not to buy it.

You may also note that the current LIBERAL government has DELAYED any competitive bidding for 3 years despite promising an IMMEDIATE competitive process.
You may also note that your claim of "Cost us billions and we got nothing in return" is also bogus as we have been partners in the F-35 programme since it's exception, have NOT invested "billions" and currently some 100 Canadian companies receive contracts from the F-35 programme.

John Oaktree

@Alison Jackson

Chretien got us into the F35...
Harper continued to fund the program...
As does Trudeau...

Rob Lehtisaari

@Bob Gillies

Why is your framed narrative so far from the details on the facts of the MOU of the F-35 vs. the announced purchase announcement of the F-35 by the then PM, Stephen Harper, Minister of Defence Peter MacKay, & Public Works Minister Rona Ambrose?

As for the Navy Surface Combatant ships the most modern design is the Global 26, I agree it is more of a paper tiger right now...but weren't you earlier on many posts, as well as this one here lecturing that Canadians should not buy old designs & equipment?

What is being seen here is what is more important for our CF versus what is more important for either the Harper Party campaign to regain Canadian Federal Government.

Which are you fighting for Party, or the Canadian Forces...because the Canadian Forces do not care who is the Government, only that they are given the tools, training, and opportunity to represent Canada on the World stage for Canadians.

Robert Tyre

@Bob Gillies if people are willing to pay attention and leave petty politics out of their comments they would note that it is normal in Canada for Lib and or Con governments to play favourites with defense money. It was Mulroney for instance that bypassed a far superior bid by Bristol aerospace in winnipeg and gave the contract for CF 18 maintenance to a Quebec company. This goes on all the time based mostly on donours and cronyism

Robert Tyre

@John Oaktree Lib Con, no difference, cronies, donours, no difference

Bob Gillies

@John Oaktree
Gee....you got it right for a change. I am impressed.

Bob Gillies

@Rob Lehtisaari
"Why is your framed narrative so far from the details on the facts of the MOU of the F-35 vs. the announced purchase announcement of the F-35 by the then PM, Stephen Harper,"

Because the poster wrote
"Cost us billions and we got nothing in return"

An "MOU" is NOT a contract to purchase and cost Canada nothing. All Canada has invested is our contractural obligations under the 21 year old partnership agreement and maintained by every government since Chretien entered into it in 1997. The TOTAL investment in that 21 years is LESS than a billion dollars and Canada has received contracts potentially worth over $10 billion US whether we buy the F-35 or not.

https://www.tpsgc-pwgsc.gc.ca/app-acq/amd-dp/air/snac-nfps/dir-irb-eng.html
It is no secret the conservatives wanted to buy the F-35 but the idea that "want" "Cost us billions and we got nothing in return" is just plain bogus.

John Oaktree

@Bob Gillies

Facts don't change...

I always go with the facts.

Bob Gillies

@John Oaktree
"I always go with the facts."

I beg to disagree….sometimes you do and sometimes you don't. Your posting history proves it.

Vernon McPhee

@Alison Jackson I really hate to tell you this but the F35 was originally picked by the Liberal government before Harper became PM. We did not spend billions on it at any point but what we did get was access to bid on the sub-contracts prior to the suspension of the deal. When the Liberals restarted the F35 process they again signed on but this time without access to the sub contracts. Seems to me the mismanagement falls on the Liberals more than the Conservatives.

David Amos

@Bob Gillies @John Oaktree "I always go with the facts."

Methinks the fact is that neither you have read my lawsuit N'esy Pas?

Philip Lucas

It seems so simple to resolve a procurement.
1. Set the specifications.
2. Solicit interest and select eligible bidders.
3. Review bids and if all are in some way deficient as each bidder to submit an alternative for specs they cannot meet.
4. Review alternatives
5. Select the winning bid
6. Begin construction with price and production guarantees.

Why is it so hard to keep the politics and backhanders out of the process?

Nestor Neville Nelson

@Philip Lucas

Can't trust these Liberals any further
than one can throw one of them warships

Mark (Junkman) George

@Philip Lucas

"Why is it so hard to keep the politics and backhanders out of the process?"

Because every politician involved wants, no, expects, backhanders.

David Amos

@Mark (Junkman) George YUP

Feds, Irving ask trade tribunal to toss challenge to warship contract

2 parties argue the challenge filed by an American company doesn't meet requirements for a tribunal hearing

Lee Berthiaume · The Canadian Press · Posted: Dec 25, 2018 4:02 PM AT

The Irving Shipbuilding facility is seen in Halifax on June 14, 2018. (Andrew Vaughan/The Canadian Press)

The federal government and Halifax-based Irving Shipbuilding are asking a trade tribunal to throw out a challenge to their handling of a high-stakes competition to design the navy's new $60-billion fleet of warships.

In separate submissions to the Canadian International Trade Tribunal, the federal procurement department and Irving say the challenge filed by Alion Science and Technology of Virginia does not meet the requirements for a tribunal hearing.

Alion was one of three companies, along with U.S. defence giant Lockheed Martin and Spanish firm Navantia, vying to design the new warships, which are to be built by Irving and serve as the navy's backbone for most of this century.

While Lockheed was selected as the preferred bidder and is negotiating a final design contract with the government and Irving, Alion alleges the company's design did not meet the navy's requirements and should have been disqualified.

Two of those requirements related to the ship's speed, Alion alleged, while the third related to the number of crew berths. Alion has asked both the trade tribunal and the Federal Court to stop any deal with Lockheed.

But the government and Irving say the contract is exempt from normal trade laws, which the tribunal is charged with enforcing, because of a special "national security exception," meaning there is "no jurisdiction for the tribunal to conduct an inquiry."

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Another reason the challenge should be quashed, they argue, is that Alion is not a Canadian company, which is a requirement for being able to ask the tribunal to consider a complaint.

Alion's challenge has been formally filed by its Canadian subsidiary, but the government and Irving say that subsidiary was never actually qualified to be a bidder in the competition — only its American parent.

The responses from the government and Irving are the latest twist in the largest military purchase in Canadian history, which will see 15 new warships built to replace the navy's 12 aging Halifax-class frigates and three already-retired Iroquois-class destroyers.

The trade tribunal ordered the government last month not to award a final contract to Lockheed until it had investigated Alion's complaint, but rescinded the order after a senior procurement official warned that the deal was "urgent."

The procurement department has not explained why the deal is urgent.

Workers look on from the bow of a ship as former prime minister Stephen Harper addresses the crowd at the Halifax Shipyard in Halifax on Thursday, Jan. 12, 2012. (Andrew Vaughan/Canadian Press)

Lockheed's bid was contentious from the moment the design competition was launched in October 2016.

The federal government had originally said it wanted a "mature design" for its new warship fleet, which was widely interpreted as meaning a vessel that has already been built and used by another navy.

But the first Type 26 frigates, upon which Lockheed's proposal was based, are only now being built by the British government and the design has not yet been tested in full operation.

There were also complaints from industry that the deck was stacked in the Type 26's favour because of Irving's connections with British shipbuilder BAE, which originally designed the Type 26 and partnered with Lockheed to offer the ship to Canada.

Irving, which worked with the federal government to pick the top design, also partnered with BAE in 2016 on an ultimately unsuccessful bid to maintain the navy's new Arctic patrol vessels and supply ships.

That 35-year contract ended up going to another company.

Government confident it did no wrong

Irving and the federal government have repeatedly rejected such complaints, saying they conducted numerous consultations with industry and used a variety of firewalls and safeguards to ensure the choice was completely fair.

But industry insiders had long warned that Lockheed's selection as the top bidder, combined with numerous changes to the requirements and competition terms after it was launched — including a number of deadline extensions — would spark lawsuits.

Government officials acknowledged last month the threat of legal action, which has become a favourite tactic for companies that lose defence contracts, but expressed confidence that they would be able to defend against such an attack.

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David Raymond Amos Round 3

Wednesday 26 December 2018