'Not sustainable': Saint John gets budget approval

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  David Raymond Amos‏ @DavidRayAmos 

Replying to @DavidRayAmos @Kathryn98967631 and 49 others

Methinks Mr Higgs and the Irving Clan would understand why I would lay odds that Mayor Don Darling does not have the first clue as to why I ran in Saint John Harbour in 2006 N'esy Pas?

https://davidraymondamos3.blogspot.com/2018/12/not-sustainable-saint-john-gets-budget.html

  #nbpoli #cdnpoli


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/saint-john-financial-budget-2019-1.4950189

'Not sustainable': Saint John gets budget approval, but it comes with a warning

56 Comments 
Commenting is now closed for this story.

 
David Amos

Surprise Surprise Surprise

 
David Amos

"Saint John councillors are hoping the province will lift some property tax exemptions for industries like the Irving Oil refinery"

Survey Says???

David Raymond Amos

If anyone wishes to recall the Liebranos hired my Father, Max Amos to be "Supervisor of Taxation" for the Province of New Brunswick in 1967 until his took sick and died of cancer in the early eighties. My Father was quite a little firecracker and he did not back up from a fight with any big bully if he was certain he was on the right side of the matter.

I remember my Father talking of many battles with the Irving Empire about paying their fair of taxation in a timely fashion. That said does CBC or anyone even recall why his wild child namely me did not hesitate to sue three Secret Agents of the Yankee IRS in 2002? Better yet how about why I preparing a law suit against their cohorts Revenue Canada? Here is one word a hint about one issue that Trump, Obama and Prime Minister Trudeau "The Younger" are well aware od aware

Lets just say that apple does not fall too far from the tree N'esy Pas Mr Jones?

David Raymond Amos

@David Raymond Amos FYI That one word is FATCA

David Amos

Deja Vu from 2 years ago

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/new-brunswick-historic-tax-concessions-1.3887534

 
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David Amos

Methinks Mr Higgs and his buddies in the Irving Clan would understand why I would lay odds that Mayor Don Darling does not have the first clue as to why I ran in Saint John Harbour in 2006 against Ed Doherty but the old postman Gerry Lowe and his pal Frank McKenna certainly do N'esy Pas? 



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Marc Martin

@David Amos

Who cares...

Jim Joe Jackson

The City of Saint John deals with commuters from Rothesay and Quispamsis who don't want to live in Saint John but are happy to use its services. SJ has the country's largest refinery polluting and paying little in taxes. SJ has an aging infrastructure with little provincial help. The city is in decline because those that can pay, don't want too.

daryl doucette

@Jim Joe Jackson "Don't want to".....well I " don't want to" either. BUT, if I " Don't", this fella called a " sheriff" will show up at my door and take my house. So, OBVIOUSLY the solution is to make EVERYONE pay their fair share of taxes, be it a beat up mini home in a trailer park, or a billion dollar oil refinery assessed at 98 million.

David Amos

@daryl doucette Methinks the Irving Clan must recall my Father sending the Sheriff to put a chain on the gates of the refinery in order to make ol KC pay his property taxes N'esy Pas?

Craig O'Donnell

Inevitably, there's a post mentioning some fault should be attributed to people living outside the city who may commute their to shop or work This happens every time there is talk about SJ's financial situation. They really should be focussing on the inept performance of SJ city council over many years that has put them where they are.
Are we to believe that every large municipality does not have a suburbian population that want to raise their families outside the city? Are we to believe that this same suburbia is not already spending tons of money in Saint John businesses? And are there any of these large municipalities that force outsiders to pay a "user tax" to prop up a poorly governed city?
Nope, blaming your problems on Quispamsis and Rothesay residents rather than yourselves is just asinine.

David Amos

@Craig O'Donnell "blaming your problems on Quispamsis and Rothesay residents rather than yourselves is just asinine"

YUP

Douglas James

@Craig O'Donnell That would be considered 'negative' news by Deputy Mayor Shirley McAlary Craig. We mustn't go down that path. Politicians are never to blame for anything but they sure like to take the credit when things go right.

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David Amos

@Douglas James "That would be considered 'negative' news by Deputy Mayor Shirley McAlary Craig"

Methinks whereas you have worked for CBC and CNN you may enjoy my one comment on the topic of taxation not long before the Green Party watched my ID be stricken from this website for their benefit N'esy Pas?

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/new-brunswick-historic-tax-concessions-1.3887534

 
Barry Odonnell

The next time some city union threatens to go on strike because they "deserve more money" remember that sooner or later you are gonna have to pay the piper.

Harold Benson

@Barry Odonnell Should think about that even more when YOU give YOURSELF a raise (as council did), and you think you deserve it. Unions ain't the problem.

David Amos

@Harold Benson Methinks Sam is pretty upset too N'esy Pas?

Roger Richard

@David Amos Who is Sam?

David Amos

@Roger Richard Mr Benson's old ID

 
cheryl wright

well its a good thing the people in charge voted to give themselves a raise

David Amos

@cheryl wright Methinks many a true word is said in jest N'esy Pas?

 
Colin Seeley

Moved to Quispam years ago to an area that had a country feel but still in the suburb .
Saint John was very good for me.

But I made the switch and have never regretted it. When the time comes I will get a small apartment .

Saint John needs revenues badly. So does NB .

I pay a Hotel Room tax wherever I go.

I pay highway tolls as well.

London England has a “ Congestion Tax “.

There there are Industrial issues that I do not understand.

What are you waiting for Saint John.

This is solvable.

David Amos

@Colin Seeley "Moved to Quispam years ago"

Methinks you did not vote for me in 2015 N'esy Pas?

Marc Martin

@David Amos

Why would he vote for you ?

David Amos

@Marc Martin Methinks you should learn to read I didn't say he did N'esy Pas?

Marc Martin

@David Amos

You should re-read what you wrote *Methinks you did not vote for me in 2015 N'esy Pas?*

 
Bo Wilson

The problem is industry (Irving) has not been paying their fair share of property taxes for years. When the province excludes machinery and equipment as part of the property tax assessment this is bizarre to say the least. Irving continues to upgrade the refinery and pulp mill with little or no increase in property taxes. Upgrade your home and see what happens to your property tax assessment. This is why people have moved outside the city. City council also has to take their fair share of responsibility for this mess. They continue to give Irving long-term fixed rates on water and electricity, something not afforded to individual home owners. The city of Saint John is broke and the province is close behind.
We will now find out if Higgs was elected to represent the citizens or if he is still working for his former employer.

David Amos

@Bo Wilson Oh So True Sir

 
Matt Steele

The city could save big money if they would bring in a partial volunteer fire department like many other communities have , but the city refuses to do it . Saint John has been mismanaged for years to the point where folks had to vote with their feet , and move out of the city altogether in order to avoid crushing property taxes . When you see city workers who collect big salaries moving out of the city , then you know there is a major problem . Nothing will change as the City of Saint John falls farther and farther behind each year 

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David Amos

@Matt Steele "The city could save big money if they would bring in a partial volunteer fire department like many other communities have , but the city refuses to do it"

Methinks you can thank your union buddies for that not the city N'esy Pas?

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Lewis Taylor

@David Amos
Methinks you don't contribute much to the discussion N'esy Pas?

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David Amos

@Lewis Taylor Methinks I say a lot more than you particularly after running for public office 6 times and suing the Crown N'esy Pas?

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Marc Martin

@Lewis Taylor

*Methinks you don't contribute much to the discussion N'esy Pas?*

He does not at all...

David Amos

@Marc Martin Methinks SANB minions are cyber stalking me N'esy Pas?

Marc Martin

@David Amos

REally..eh...who cares...

David Peters

@Matt Steele

By the way this article reads, things are going to change...for the worse, imo. The politicians sound like they want to raise taxes instead of cutting our massive, expensive public bureaucracy.

David Peters

@Lewis Taylor

On the contrary, he is right on the money. It's the public union's and their unreasonable, unsustainable collective bargaining rights that are bankrupting local, provincial and federal gov'ts across the country.

 
Wally Manza

Sad to see an industrialized city like Saint John struggles to maintain itself just this side of bankruptcy and especially in a time we are being informed the economy is booming yet. Best economy in 40 years!

David Amos

@Wally Manza YUP

 
Douglas James

And still the Mayor doesn't seem interested in getting the city's own house in order, ignoring the need for municipal benchmarking and preferring to beg for help from the province (ALL taxpayers) while continuing to supply Irving with cheap water on the backs of residential property owners. The city has the authority today to dramatically increase water rates for industry but does nothing for fear of upsetting Irving interests. Meanwhile the rest of us pay the highest residential water rates in the province and among the highest in Canada.

David Amos

@Douglas James Methinks you are losing faith in your Green Party leader and his old buddy Gerry Lowe N'esy Pas?

Content disabled Marc Martin

@David Amos

Who cares..

Douglas James

@David Amos No idea what you are talking about David.

David Amos 

@Douglas James Methinks many would agree that Green Party people have no ethical ideas whatsoever N'esy Pas?

Jason Inness

When you compare the budgets of Saint John and Moncton, you will notice that Saint John pays about $11 million more for public safety (fire, policing). On a per capita basis, the cost per citizen in Saint John for public safety is about $820, in Moncton the cost is about $400.

Why is Saint John paying so much for public safety? This is insane, and has nothing at all to do with bedroom communities or the tax base. Considering the way the police have handled the Oland case, I really wonder where all that money goes.

David Amos 

@Jason Inness "Why is Saint John paying so much for public safety?"

 Unions

Emery Hyslop-Margison

One word: Amalgamation. Now we get to see if the Higgs government is willing to put its money where its mouth is or whether politics in New Brunswick once again gets in the way of action.

Douglas James

@Emery Hyslop-Margison Amalgamation is not the answer. A city does not get better by becoming bigger. It becomes bigger by getting better.

Emery Hyslop-Margison

@Douglas James With due respect, people living around Saint John work in the city, recreate in the city, receive health care in the city, seek entertainment in the city and on it goes. But they pay no taxes to the city. It is "unsustainable" when most of the people receiving benefit from city services contribute nothing directly to the tax base. THAT is the problem - nothing to do with getting bigger Doug.

David Amos

@Emery Hyslop-Margison Methinks Amalgamation would be a circus many would enjoy watching N'esy Pas?

Emery Hyslop-Margison

@David Amos No circus needed, municipalities fall under provincial legislative jurisdiction. Municipal reform is required throughout New Brunswick to eliminate political waste, corruption and patronage. The economic savings to the province would be huge.

 
Harrold Curry

Saint john is swirling around the toilet. Worst city in Canada by far!

David Amos

@Harrold Curry Methinks the Irving Clan gets the governments they pay for N'esy Pas?

'Not sustainable': Saint John gets budget approval, but it comes with a warning

The city's tax base is now in 3rd place behind Moncton and Fredericton

Connell Smith · CBC News · Posted: Dec 18, 2018 8:09 AM AT

Kevin Fudge, Saint John's finance commissioner, says the city's 2019 budget is not sustainable. (CBC)

Saint John council approved its operating budget for 2019 with stern warnings the municipality could soon be in deep financial trouble.

The $160-million budget holds the tax rate at $1.78 — where it's been for several years.
Under the tax rate a home assessed at $200,000 would carry a tax bill of $3,750 next year.

But councillors heard that without an emergency funding package approved last year by the provincial government, the city's tax rate would have to increase more than ten cents to maintain service and employment levels where they are now.

"This budget is not sustainable," said Kevin Fudge, the city's finance commissioner. "[The] status quo business model is not an option."

• Saint John's proposed $160M budget inspires confidence and jitters 
• 'It's very upsetting': Saint John officials disappointed with new NBM in jeopardy 
• New year to bring in service cuts as Saint John's budget shrinks

Fudge said the city has to rein in rising salary and benefit costs and get the province to agree to some kind of reform of the property tax system.

The special funding package from the province amounts to $7.1 million in 2019, but runs out at the end of 2020.

Saint John councillors are hoping the province will lift some property tax exemptions for industries like the Irving Oil refinery. (Brian Chisholm, CBC)

The city assessment base grew by one per cent in 2018, but has averaged less than a per cent annually over several years — moving from the centre with the highest assessment base in the province in the year 2000 to third place today. That's 17 per cent behind Moncton and five per cent behind Fredericton.

The city has been asking the province for municipal tax reform, including removal of partial tax exemptions for major industries like the Irving Oil refinery.

According to Mayor Don Darling, the city has been assured by the Blaine Higgs government that some reforms are on the way.

Meetings with government 

Councillors met privately Monday with two local members of Higgs's cabinet, including Social Development Minister Dorothy Shephard and Post-Secondary Education, Training and Labour Minister Trevor Holder, along with PC MLA, Glen Savoie, who represents Saint John East.

"Excellent discussion today, great first meeting," Darling said afterward. "We talked about a range of items including municipal reform, which they were very supportive of."

The $160-million 2019 budget is $4.9 million higher than this year's budget.

It allocates $24.6 million for fire services and $26 million for police.

Meanwhile, public transit will receive $7.9 million.

The city has a permanent staff of 627 people and no major cuts to services have been proposed.

About the Author

 

Connell Smith

Reporter

Connell Smith is a reporter with CBC in Saint John. He can be reached at 632-7726 Connell.smith@cbc.ca

CBC's Journalistic Standards and Practices

Property tax concessions have cost N.B. nearly $380M over 40 years

CBC News investigation examined tax deals that lighten the tax load for certain businesses

Robert Jones · CBC News · Posted: Dec 12, 2016 5:50 AM AT

 

CBC New Brunswick's Robert Jones walks you through a CBC investigation that showed some $3.5 billion worth of property in New Brunswick enjoying some kind of special tax treatment and a tradition of concessions that cost the province an estimated $380 million, plus interest, over nearly four decades. 2:30

Up to $3.5 billion worth of property in New Brunswick enjoys some kind of special tax treatment, a tradition of concessions that has cost the province an estimated $380 million, plus interest, over nearly four decades, a CBC News investigation shows.

The investigation into special tax deals was launched after Premier Brian Gallant challenged the public during a call-in radio show to help him identify deals that were "not equitable."

Tax exemptions and discounts explored by the CBC include multimillion dollar breaks on forest properties, farmland, petroleum sites and other facilities. In some cases, the tax breaks have stayed in place long after their original purpose became irrelevant.

• New Brunswick tax breaks: Who gets what

This year, the tax breaks will cost the province an estimated $24 million.

That amount includes a seldom-mentioned $6.5 million provincial property tax exemption for Irving Oil's Canaport LNG properties.

CBC News investigated property tax discounts and exemptions given to businesses and sectors, some dating back 40 years. (CBC)

CBC News has confirmed the Gallant government is allowing that exemption to continue even after it fully repeals a Saint John municipal property tax deal at the same site.

"The repealing of the LNG Act has no effect on the provincial property tax exemption," Nichole Bowman, a spokeswoman for Service New Brunswick, said in an email.

"The LNG facility will still be eligible for exemption of provincial tax revenue."

The other tax deals looked at by CBC News include:

• A 23-year freeze on the assessment of more than $2 billion worth of privately owned timberland that causes forest properties in New Brunswick to be undervalued for tax purposes by as much as 90 per cent.
• A tax deferral program on agricultural land that has allowed owners to postpone — and ultimately not pay — $129.9 million in provincial property tax over the last 38 years.
• A property tax exemption on crude oil storage tanks and pipelines attached to the Irving Oil refinery granted in response to the 1979 oil crisis that has been allowed to continue for decades after the crisis ended.
• Three other property tax exemptions for New Brunswick ports, airports and railway right of ways that have expanded to cost the province triple the amount originally estimated.

Finance Minister Cathy Rogers says it was too big a task for the province's program review, but her department has recently begun looking at all special tax deals. (CBC)

The tax deals are so deeply rooted in the politics of New Brunswick that none were seriously challenged during the Gallant government's strategic review of spending last year that was meant to place all government programs under a microscope.

Finance Minister Cathy Rogers said it was too big a task, and her department has recently begun looking at all special government tax deals.

"We decided we needed to do a more comprehensive review," she said.

"We are looking at this [now]."

• Irving Oil's tank farm and the tax break that keeps on giving

Farmland tax forgiveness

 

A program created in 1978 allows farm owners to defer provincial property tax on land and farm buildings for 15 years, at which point, if the land is still in agricultural use, the debt is forgiven. (CBC)

  

Peter Hyslop, a Hartland-based lawyer, said one of the most generous of the tax deals, the 38-year-old program that forgives provincial property taxes on farm property, would trigger major political trouble for anyone who tried to undo it.

"I think you'd have a hard time electing that party up and down the [St. John River] Valley," Hyslop said.

"I expect there would be a pretty significant uproar."

Devised in 1978, the program allows farm owners to defer provincial property tax on land and farm buildings for 15 years, at which point, if the land is still in agricultural use, the debt is forgiven.

A total of $129.9 million in farmland property tax has gone uncollected by the province since the program began.

This year, hundreds of agricultural businesses used it to avoid paying provincial tax on nearly $600 million worth of property including the multi-billion-dollar Florenceville company, McCain Foods, which sheltered at least $11 million of its farmland and buildings from taxes inside the program.

Timberland tax concessions

 

Last December, Gray Rapids partly sold and partly donated 853 hectares it owned along the Bartholomew River near Blackville to the Nature Conservancy of Canada. (Nature Conservancy of Canada)

 Even larger than that are property tax concessions for owners of forestland.  

About three million hectares of forest is owned privately in New Brunswick — an area five times the size of Prince Edward Island. J.D. Irving, Ltd., alone owns 725,000 hectares of that.

Adjusted for inflation, taxes on timberland in New Brunswick are now less than half what they were in 1966, following a series of assessment freezes over 50 years, including the last 23 years in a row.

For tax purposes, forest properties are deemed to be worth $100 per hectare and have been since 1994 even though the same properties sell on the open market for several times that.

It produces heavily discounted property tax bills, and even some who benefit from it, like Gray Rapids Timber co owner Carl Faulkner wonder if it's too generous.

"I think about that all the time and I really can't come up with the right answer," he said. "I honestly can't."

Carl Faulkner, the co-owner of Gray Rapids, says he wonders if tax breaks for forest properties are too generous. (Nature Conservancy of Canada)

Last December, Gray Rapids partly sold and partly donated 853 hectares it owned along the Bartholomew River near Blackville to the Nature Conservancy of Canada.

The land was assessed by the province — and taxed — as being worth $85,300.  The Nature Conservancy had it independently appraised before the sale for $950,000.

As a sign of how stubborn tax deals can be to dislodge once granted, CBC News also looked at a 1980 tax exemption granted on crude oil storage tanks and pipelines attached to the Irving Oil refinery.

It was awarded largely to help the company survive a worldwide oil crisis that began in 1979, but the arrangement was left undisturbed after the troubles resolved themselves in the mid-1980s.

Originally valued at between $400,000 and $500,000,  the province will not say exactly what the crude oil tank and pipeline exemption is worth now, only to acknowledge it is "substantially more" than in 1980.

Commercial tax deals 'not equitable'

 

Keith Brideau, a Saint John-based developer, says he would like to see the entire property tax system reviewed, deals and all. (CBC)

 On the call-in show that led to the CBC investigation, Gallant did not define what kind of tax deal he would consider to be "not equitable." However, the various tax deals and concessions  in place contrast sharply with property taxes paid by those without special treatment.  

• Hunting for tax bargains: how we answered the premier's call

Keith Brideau has helped revive a number of old buildings in downtown Saint John and they're taxed at some of the highest commercial property tax rates in Canada, about 40 per cent of them levied by the province.

Brideau would like to see the entire property tax system reviewed, deals and all.

"When something has been around for a long time it tends to stay the same," he said.

"I think we have to challenge the existing system."

Annual tax on N .B. property per $100,000 in market value (CBC)

Edited by Connie Camp
Packaged by Daniel McHardie
Video by Paul Hantiuk and Earl Cabuhat

About the Author

 

Robert Jones

Reporter

Robert Jones has been a reporter and producer with CBC New Brunswick since 1990. His investigative reports on petroleum pricing in New Brunswick won several regional and national awards and led to the adoption of price regulation in 2006. 

CBC's Journalistic Standards and Practices|